OTA's 2022

[Pckfn23]

You can't just jump in and pick a position fit that you wanted more or a player fit that you see now with the benefit of hindsight. You can't just assume any top 15 pick will give you 4 cheap years of high-level to Pro Bowl starter potential.

This is really the crux of why this is still a discussion. Hindsight is being used instead of trying to reason out the pick when it happened. Also, there is an unreal expectation that it is normal for 1st round rookie to be something like half time starters.

[go pak go]

The day of the draft I was all in on Simmons. I just felt that was top 5 talent on a discount and it turned out to be the case. They took Gary and at this point you didn’t lose much outside of a need those first 2 years which is still important.

At this point Gary vs Simmons vs Burns shouldn’t be too big a deal. I think I’m still right the pick should have been Simmons but whatever. The real travesty is trading up for Savage and not taking DK. To me it was obvious DK was a top 10 talent. I still can’t understand why teams do this where they’re afraid to take high tier one trick ponies that you can build a scheme around that skill. That mistake is kind of why we are where we are. On one hand we lack anything at receiver that is ready to take up the mantle and on the other Savage has been nothing but inconsistent and unimpressive.

Yeah. I really liked Savage so this is harder for me to accept. I just got really excited that he could take the back half of the field with his speed.

But you are correct. So far this draft pick is turning out to be not great.

So far Gute is hitting pretty good in Round 1 (Love is looking like a bust and Savage okay...but the rest are absolutely fantastic). Rd 2 doesn't look too bad either after 2018. Round 3 is absolute garbage juice (hopefully Rhyan turns this around) and his Day 3 guys, outside of MVS and Runyan, seem to be pretty poor too.

[BF004]

[go pak go]

Again. Completely disagree.

I absolutely think thoughts on a subject should change when presented good information and data to support a change in perspective. Not doing so makes one incredibly hard headed and quite frankly useless to talk to.

then change your mind

I showed you evidence that Simmons has been the better player, is ranked higher, started mid point rookie season and started ever since, yet you expect me to change my mind, never going to happen concerning this because I'am right.

I agree Yoho, players do get better after there rookie season, and Simmons obviously did, so did Gary, most players probably start to hit there ceiling year 3, but a player picked as high as Gary was should be pushing to start some time as a rookie, other players do so every year, in fact that is the norm, as I said prior, we had other positions besides edge that also needed improvement, Gute was masterful with moving around, adding a 1st round pick and still was able to get Alexander, my w2ish was that he would have done something like that when he sat pat and just took Gary, nothing about that pick made sense to me, it's why I said I think Mike Smith had influenced his decision, but I'am just guessing about that, obviously.

where here arguing this because there are those here that will defend almost anything our GM's do, including drafting a already well fortified position, ( Gary) will take a QB ( Love)versus attempting to get a receiver, trading up 10 spots for a safety ( Savage) tells me when he wants a player he'll do what it takes to get him, that crap about not being able to trade up for Jefferson or one of those top 6 wont sell for me, more likely he didn't even try.

for the most part I think Gute has done a good job, I like most of his draft picks, outside of the two mentioned, and I still root for both to do well, I just didn't like the picks when he drafted them, and received so much flak for not liking the pick at the time that it's become a sore spot.

I will change my mind if the argument is good. It's just your argument isn't good.

I'm not disputing that Simmons, with hindsight, would be a great draft pick for us. Honestly a better draft pick for us if you just look at 2019 - 2021 in a vacuum. (though draft picks are used with years of utility in mind)

But that is a poor argument supporting that the Gary pick was a bad. Instead that argument supports that you can only think of one player that is a more a perfect situation for us using the benefit of hindsight. When you can only think of one player (again your tune changed on this. First it was Gute should have traded with Denver to get Devin Bush. Then it was Noah Fant and then it finally went to Simmons when hindsight was so strong on your side)

Just a weird topic to make so much drama about when the alternative selection is only slightly better. Like when only one alternative can be hashed as "better"....that's a good pick yoop.

Now the Jordan Love pick? Yeah. The tea leaves are absolutely starting to show this didn't look like a good pick. But the tea leaves are also showing only one player really selected in the 20's in that draft (Jefferson) would have ended up being a good player for us that fit our needs. Most are looking "meh" at the moment. Besides Jefferson.

[Yoop]

You can't just jump in and pick a position fit that you wanted more or a player fit that you see now with the benefit of hindsight. You can't just assume any top 15 pick will give you 4 cheap years of high-level to Pro Bowl starter potential.

This is really the crux of why this is still a discussion. Hindsight is being used instead of trying to reason out the pick when it happened. Also, there is an unreal expectation that it is normal for 1st round rookie to be something like half time starters.

more bull

you certainly can expect a high pick to become a average starter year 1, it happens more then it doesn't, just go look around the league, sure you'll see some bust, or have to be replaced players, obviously all wont be ready, but the majority of first round picks. specially top 15 will start at some point as rookies and play at or above average starting players.

and there is no rational reasoning to take Rashan Gary over a guy who lasted longer, and has done better and at a position weaker then edge rusher.

my god the lengths you and others will go to defend this pick is priceless

[go pak go]

You can't just jump in and pick a position fit that you wanted more or a player fit that you see now with the benefit of hindsight. You can't just assume any top 15 pick will give you 4 cheap years of high-level to Pro Bowl starter potential.

This is really the crux of why this is still a discussion. Hindsight is being used instead of trying to reason out the pick when it happened. Also, there is an unreal expectation that it is normal for 1st round rookie to be something like half time starters.

more bull

you certainly can expect a high pick to become a average starter year 1, it happens more then it doesn't, just go look around the league, sure you'll see some bust, or have to be replaced players, obviously all wont be ready, but the majority of first round picks. specially top 15 will start at some point as rookies and play at or above average starting players.

and there is no rational reasoning to take Rashan Gary over a guy who lasted longer, and has done better and at a position weaker then edge rusher.

my god the lengths you and others will go to defend this pick is priceless

I just find it incredibly ironic based on the large volume of keyboarding you do to me explaining how players can't be perfect when I point out missed play opportunities in big games but you have no problem attacking a low probability weekend by saying a draft pick wasn't perfect.

Just seems like an incredible double standard. Like you expect more from Gute than you do our star players who earn 5 - 10 times as much money. Especially when the player in question almost carried us to a playoff win last year if not for an absolute drop of ball performance from the STs and offense.

Your calculus will always perplex me.

[Yoop]

Again. Completely disagree.

I absolutely think thoughts on a subject should change when presented good information and data to support a change in perspective. Not doing so makes one incredibly hard headed and quite frankly useless to talk to.

then change your mind

I showed you evidence that Simmons has been the better player, is ranked higher, started mid point rookie season and started ever since, yet you expect me to change my mind, never going to happen concerning this because I'am right.

I agree Yoho, players do get better after there rookie season, and Simmons obviously did, so did Gary, most players probably start to hit there ceiling year 3, but a player picked as high as Gary was should be pushing to start some time as a rookie, other players do so every year, in fact that is the norm, as I said prior, we had other positions besides edge that also needed improvement, Gute was masterful with moving around, adding a 1st round pick and still was able to get Alexander, my w2ish was that he would have done something like that when he sat pat and just took Gary, nothing about that pick made sense to me, it's why I said I think Mike Smith had influenced his decision, but I'am just guessing about that, obviously.

where here arguing this because there are those here that will defend almost anything our GM's do, including drafting a already well fortified position, ( Gary) will take a QB ( Love)versus attempting to get a receiver, trading up 10 spots for a safety ( Savage) tells me when he wants a player he'll do what it takes to get him, that crap about not being able to trade up for Jefferson or one of those top 6 wont sell for me, more likely he didn't even try.

for the most part I think Gute has done a good job, I like most of his draft picks, outside of the two mentioned, and I still root for both to do well, I just didn't like the picks when he drafted them, and received so much flak for not liking the pick at the time that it's become a sore spot.

I will change my mind if the argument is good. It's just your argument isn't good.

I'm not disputing that Simmons, with hindsight, would be a great draft pick for us. Honestly a better draft pick for us if you just look at 2019 - 2021 in a vacuum. (though draft picks are used with years of utility in mind)

But that is a poor argument supporting that the Gary pick was a bad. Instead that argument supports that you can only think of one player that is a more a perfect situation for us using the benefit of hindsight. When you can only think of one player (again your tune changed on this. First it was Gute should have traded with Denver to get Devin Bush. Then it was Noah Fant and then it finally went to Simmons when hindsight was so strong on your side)

Just a weird topic to make so much drama about when the alternative selection is only slightly better. Like when only one alternative can be hashed as "better"....that's a good pick yoop.

Now the Jordan Love pick? Yeah. The tea leaves are absolutely starting to show this didn't look like a good pick. But the tea leaves are also showing only one player really selected in the 20's in that draft (Jefferson) would have ended up being a good player for us that fit our needs. Most are looking "meh" at the moment. Besides Jefferson.

there is no freaking hindsight concerning this, your just like a republican, always deverting a topic. Simmons was not only graded much higher, and the only reason he didn't go top 5 ( his prior grading) was do to injury and off field issues, which where wrong and bad, but explained, and proven to be a single occurrence thing.

and you did use hindsight concerning Keven King, ya don't get to do that with one draft to another where the high picks didn't do as well, Simmons was the BPA at slot 12, he dropped for the reasons mentioned, seriously who gives a &%$@ about what Bush did, he was gone prior if my memory is right.
also you and everyone here knows that how a WR or TE does depends a lot on the coaching and QB, Jefferson stands out because he fit in exactly to Minny's game schemes, you could have put Cobb, or several others, Ayuik etc.

more crap

First it was Gute should have traded with Denver to get Devin Bush. Then it was Noah Fant and then it finally went to Simmons when hindsight was so strong on your side)


and I like you and others, I say a whole lot of stuff prior to the draft, so this is complete hog wash to bring up, even without looking I doubt I said any of this, I remember liking Simmons months before the draft, even checked out the legal issues, your making &%$@ up.

[Yoop]

This is really the crux of why this is still a discussion. Hindsight is being used instead of trying to reason out the pick when it happened. Also, there is an unreal expectation that it is normal for 1st round rookie to be something like half time starters.

more bull

you certainly can expect a high pick to become a average starter year 1, it happens more then it doesn't, just go look around the league, sure you'll see some bust, or have to be replaced players, obviously all wont be ready, but the majority of first round picks. specially top 15 will start at some point as rookies and play at or above average starting players.

and there is no rational reasoning to take Rashan Gary over a guy who lasted longer, and has done better and at a position weaker then edge rusher.

my god the lengths you and others will go to defend this pick is priceless

I just find it incredibly ironic based on the large volume of keyboarding you do to me explaining how players can't be perfect when I point out missed play opportunities in big games but you have no problem attacking a low probability weekend by saying a draft pick wasn't perfect.

Just seems like an incredible double standard. Like you expect more from Gute than you do our star players who earn 5 - 10 times as much money. Especially when the player in question almost carried us to a playoff win last year if not for an absolute drop of ball performance from the STs and offense.

Your calculus will always perplex me.

these are TWO different topics, one is grading a decision made by the GM, the other is evaluating progress made by a player.

I expect Gute to improve positions as I did Ted, Ron, Sherman etc. he chose to over bolster a position he just got done spending a 100 mil dollars on while avoiding to fix a much harder to find positional player, you damn right I see a issue with that, that you don't describes what I've been saying, you and several others will defend the GM over rational thinking, the DT position is a much harder position to fill with quality then the edge rush position, always has been and always will be, we had needs at CB, DT, WR, OL, that far exceeded our need for Gary.


and Savage is so much better then you or Lupe think, he showed it his first two seasons, that was a smart decision to move up and take him, lis, aint no one here that really knows who Love is yet, been around a few QB's in my lifetime and I find it near impossible to see a star coming, the position is so mental, till that clears, everything else he does is ten times harder.

[Pckfn23]

Let's tackle some misconceptions. Was Simmons rated much higher than Gary? NO! Gary was rated higher, 16 compared to 25: https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/bi ... board-2019

Should it be the expectation that top half of the first round rookies are average or better players in their first season? In the last 10 years there have been 160 players drafted in the top 16. 69 of those players had an average or better season as a rookie. That would mean that 91 had a below average year in their first year. https://stathead.com/tiny/tc1ng It is an unrealistic expectation to expect a rookie to be average or better in their first year. It is demonstrably false to say that the majority will play average or above.

[Yoop]

look at college production, Simmons ranking drop had nothing to do with football, he fell cause he punched out a jerk woman.

Simmons did not make a good impression after signing on to play at Mississippi State. He was arrested for his part in a March 2016 fight, and a video of him repeatedly punching a woman made him a nationwide target for those wondering why colleges allow the enrollment and athletic participation of players with violent histories. He was found guilty of malicious mischief and pled no contest to simple assault, paying fines and restitution for the woman's medical bills. During his time in Starkville, however, he has had no incidents. He won the team's Newsom Award in the spring of 2018 for his work on the field, in the classroom and in the community. Simmons was a five-star recruit after helping Noxubee County High School win back-to-back Mississippi state titles his junior and senior seasons. He started 3 of 12 games played as a true freshman (40 tackles, 3.5 for loss), suspended only for the opener for his off-field incident. SEC coaches named him to their All-Freshman team. The following year, he was named first-team All-SEC after making 60 stops, 12 for loss, and five sacks for the Bulldogs. Simmons started all 13 games as a junior, again being voted first-team all-conference as well as an Associated Press third-team All-American. He started all 13 games in 2018, leading his team with 17 tackles for loss (including two sacks) among his 63 total stops.

Analysis
By Lance Zierlein
NFL Analyst
Draft Projection
Round 1
NFL Comparison
Ndamukong Suh
Overview
Impressive physical specimen offering rare combination of strength and athleticism for future dominance in a variety of defensive schemes. Simmons involvement in a fight between two women in 2016 will surely be a cause for concern, but his avoidance of trouble while at college should help his cause. His on-field issues are self-created and largely due to a lack of instincts, but the physical tools and immense upside outweigh those concerns. Simmons has All-Pro potential and should become an early starter and star.

[salmar80]

more bull

you certainly can expect a high pick to become a average starter year 1, it happens more then it doesn't, just go look around the league, sure you'll see some bust, or have to be replaced players, obviously all wont be ready, but the majority of first round picks. specially top 15 will start at some point as rookies and play at or above average starting players.

and there is no rational reasoning to take Rashan Gary over a guy who lasted longer, and has done better and at a position weaker then edge rusher.

my god the lengths you and others will go to defend this pick is priceless

I just find it incredibly ironic based on the large volume of keyboarding you do to me explaining how players can't be perfect when I point out missed play opportunities in big games but you have no problem attacking a low probability weekend by saying a draft pick wasn't perfect.

Just seems like an incredible double standard. Like you expect more from Gute than you do our star players who earn 5 - 10 times as much money. Especially when the player in question almost carried us to a playoff win last year if not for an absolute drop of ball performance from the STs and offense.

Your calculus will always perplex me.

these are TWO different topics, one is grading a decision made by the GM, the other is evaluating progress made by a player.

I expect Gute to improve positions as I did Ted, Ron, Sherman etc. he chose to over bolster a position he just got done spending a 100 mil dollars on while avoiding to fix a much harder to find positional player, you damn right I see a issue with that, that you don't describes what I've been saying, you and several others will defend the GM over rational thinking, the DT position is a much harder position to fill with quality then the edge rush position, always has been and always will be, we had needs at CB, DT, WR, OL, that far exceeded our need for Gary.


and Savage is so much better then you or Lupe think, he showed it his first two seasons, that was a smart decision to move up and take him, lis, aint no one here that really knows who Love is yet, been around a few QB's in my lifetime and I find it near impossible to see a star coming, the position is so mental, till that clears, everything else he does is ten times harder.

I don't understand you not criticizing Gutey for not trading up for Simmons.

You're constantly doing that with Jefferson. For some reason not with Simmons.

We coulda had Gary AND Simmons. Instead of trading up for Savage, Gutey coulda traded up a bit more for Simmons.

If we didn't have Gary, there's no way we don't pick or spend a LOT this past draft and UFA on pass rushers.

[Pckfn23]

Copying and pasting Simmons' draft write up from Lance Zierlein is irrelevant. He was not rated higher than Gary. It is interesting to talk up Simmons' production, but talk down Gary's:

image.png (44.73 KiB) Viewed 368 times

image.png (42.62 KiB) Viewed 368 times

That isn't some runaway huge disparity in production...

[go pak go]

and I like you and others, I say a whole lot of stuff prior to the draft, so this is complete hog wash to bring up, even without looking I doubt I said any of this, I remember liking Simmons months before the draft, even checked out the legal issues, your making &%$@ up.

I get it if it was just a "passer by thing"

but you literally hijacked every thread in 2019 the same way you hijack every thread in 2020, 2021 and 2022. You talked about no recievers and we should have traded up for Bush and then it became Fant when our 2019 offense wasn't producing.

It was literally every thread yoop.

I'm bowing out here. Sorry I helped blow this thing up. I got trolled once again.

[Labrev]

here we go again, the same few defending this insanity of drafting a pine rider for two seasons at slot 12 over a player that started as rookie and has produced well since then, nothing really changes around here

You say this like EDGE is like OL where backups don't play at all. At EDGE, they do, though, and those snaps are valuable because they keep the starters fresh and still present an opportunity to make big plays like sacks or TFLs.

Gary actually looked pretty good when he got out there, they could have and should have been playing him more, especially in Year 2 with both Smiths not playing as well as they did the year before (Preston was not doing much against the pass and Z was a liability in the run).

[Labrev]

yoop logic:

Pat Mahommes? Bad pick. He rode the pine as a rookie, 10th overall pick -- whatta waste!! Didn't matter that he looked good when he played as a rookie, there was no way he was going to play -- they already had Alex Smith! Idiots shoulda drafted Jonathan Allen, they needed a DT and he played right away!

Chargers WR Mike Williams? Insanity! He didn't start as a rookie -- 7th overall pick (that's almost twice as bad as wasting a guy taken at 12!), down the toilet. They already had Keenan Allen, Dontrelle Inman, and Travis Benjamin as productive starters! 95 yards the whole year, smh. Next year, just five starts, 660 yards -- BUST.

Thousand-yard receiver next year? Too late, they wasted two seasons waiting for him to be good. Why bother getting a good player from a Top-10 pick if you have to wait? Coulda drafted Christian McCaffrey -- he started right away! Williams hasn't even made a ProBowl yet like McCafferey! Stupid Chargers should just cut him already...

[Labrev]

And for the love of god, Packers were never going to draft Simmons with him being caught on tape punching a woman. They only took Devonte Wyatt after their investigation confirmed that he did NOT do that. Simmons did, and we all saw it. Yes, I know you don't care. The Packers do. Get over it.

[Yoop]

yoop logic:

Pat Mahommes? Bad pick. He rode the pine as a rookie, 10th overall pick -- whatta waste!! Didn't matter that he looked good when he played as a rookie, there was no way he was going to play -- they already had Alex Smith! Idiots shoulda drafted Jonathan Allen, they needed a DT and he played right away!

Chargers WR Mike Williams? Insanity! He didn't start as a rookie -- 7th overall pick (that's almost twice as bad as wasting a guy taken at 12!), down the toilet. They already had Keenan Allen, Dontrelle Inman, and Travis Benjamin as productive starters! 95 yards the whole year, smh. Next year, just five starts, 660 yards -- BUST.

Thousand-yard receiver next year? Too late, they wasted two seasons waiting for him to be good. Why bother getting a good player from a Top-10 pick if you have to wait? Coulda drafted Christian McCaffrey -- he started right away! Williams hasn't even made a ProBowl yet like McCafferey! Stupid Chargers should just cut him already...

I know your smarter then this, QB position shouldn't be expected to start as a rookie,in fact I think in most cases they shouldn't, thats not the same for most other positions, where the mental part does not factor in as much.

again you just like others want to turn this into a individual player thing, obviously top 10 players bust, there are no sure picks.

the rest of your comments are just sarcasm and don't deserve a response.

[Yoop]

and I like you and others, I say a whole lot of stuff prior to the draft, so this is complete hog wash to bring up, even without looking I doubt I said any of this, I remember liking Simmons months before the draft, even checked out the legal issues, your making &%$@ up.

I get it if it was just a "passer by thing"

but you literally hijacked every thread in 2019 the same way you hijack every thread in 2020, 2021 and 2022. You talked about no recievers and we should have traded up for Bush and then it became Fant when our 2019 offense wasn't producing.

It was literally every thread yoop.

I'm bowing out here. Sorry I helped blow this thing up. I got trolled once again.

to funny, when another poster wont cave to my point of view there a troll,

[Labrev]

I know your smarter then this, QB position shouldn't be expected to start as a rookie,in fact I think in most cases they shouldn't, thats not the same for most other positions, where the mental part does not factor in as much.

Yeah I knew you'd say that, which is why I included Mike Williams, a receiver.

WHAT NOW?!?!?

[Realist]

Absolutely fascinating how yoop continues to generate so many responses. Mind boggling.