From Lambeau to Lombardi, Holmgren, McCarthy and LaFleur and from Starr to Favre, Rodgers and now Jordan Love we’re talking Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers football. This Packers Forum is the place to talk NFL football and everything Packers. So, pull up a keyboard, make yourself at home and let’s talk some Packers football.
He force fed Scantling even more, but he dropped 50% of his targets, and wide open is suppose to be his pedigree,
When I read statements like this it just makes me quit reading. It is so disingenuous and outright false. No sense continuing.
FYI:
A fifth-round pick of the Packers in 2018, Valdes-Scantling dropped 12 passes in his first three seasons combined but made it through the entire 2021 season without a drop, according to ESPN Stats & Information.
the stats don't always deceive, he caught 33 of 66 targeted throws, thats 50% that landed on the ground, I don't know who your listening to from ESPN but there report is what is deceiving.
I agree he improved some, but what helped Scantling secure a 10 mil. contract was his ability to stretch the field.
Why don't we argue about the same thing and maybe that will help.
[mention]Yoop[/mention] is talking about catch percentage.
[mention]APB[/mention] is talking about drop rate.
When I read statements like this it just makes me quit reading. It is so disingenuous and outright false. No sense continuing.
FYI:
the stats don't always deceive, he caught 33 of 66 targeted throws, thats 50% that landed on the ground, I don't know who your listening to from ESPN but there report is what is deceiving.
I agree he improved some, but what helped Scantling secure a 10 mil. contract was his ability to stretch the field.
Why don't we argue about the same thing and maybe that will help.
@Yoop is talking about catch percentage.
@APB is talking about drop rate.
They are not the same thing.
well actually they amount to the same thing, a incomplete pass, Rodgers threw to MVS and for whatever reason MVS never caught more then 50% of those throws, his 2020 season was his best right at 50%.
and drop rate is a opinion based on whatever the grader determines, we complain about PFF's grades all the time and I'd rank there grades above the yokels at ESPN every day of the week.
and drop rate is a opinion based on whatever the grader determines, we complain about PFF's grades all the time and I'd rank there grades above the yokels at ESPN every day of the week.
I mean, you can claim that and there is probably some validity to it, but in terms of definition, it should not be based on opinion. A drop is a ball that hits a WR in the hands. The point is when talking about catch percentage, there are a grand majority of passes that fall incomplete that have absolutely nothing to do with drops.
and drop rate is a opinion based on whatever the grader determines, we complain about PFF's grades all the time and I'd rank there grades above the yokels at ESPN every day of the week.
I mean, you can claim that and there is probably some validity to it, but in terms of definition, it should not be based on opinion. A drop is a ball that hits a WR in the hands. The point is when talking about catch percentage, there are a grand majority of passes that fall incomplete that have absolutely nothing to do with drops.
thing is that a ball that is inside the players catch radius should be caught, Rodgers put most within that proximity and MVS simply failed to get his hands on them.
obviously some where un catchable, some where probably deflected or well defended, but MVS has topped our charts for not catching targeted throws, just look at his YPGA, MVS greatest attribute was drawing over the top support, and the greatest benefactor was Devonte Adams, yes there is value in that, but not 10 mil annual value.
Drops and incompletions are not the same thing. MVS did not drop 50% of his targets, not even close. 50% of his targets did fall incomplete, that is not an opinion. Why we have this discussion on a regular basis... I don't know...
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
Just serves to point out that MVS was not good at the catch point. I don't think many refute that at this point. He was never and likely will never be a contested catch WR. When you can run like he can, though, the Packers were obviously willing to live with that and Kansas City was willing to pay for that.
Drops and incompletions are not the same thing. MVS did not drop 50% of his targets, not even close. 50% of his targets did fall incomplete, that is not an opinion. Why we have this discussion on a regular basis... I don't know...
oh please, we have these debates because you rely on deceptive reporting to claim a point, Scantling just dropped 2 in a 10 play series for the Vikes, and he didn't catch plenty for us that most receivers could have made a better attempt to hall in.
never surpassed a 50% catch rate, and he probably never will.
Just serves to point out that MVS was not good at the catch point. I don't think many refute that at this point. He was never and likely will never be a contested catch WR. When you can run like he can, though, the Packers were obviously willing to live with that and Kansas City was willing to pay for that.
imo all Scantling had going for him was speed, for some reason I thought he went to Minny, whatever, I doubt much changes for him in Kansas, but we'll see. no way we where going to match what he was given, his YPG didn't warrant that money
Drops and incompletions are not the same thing. MVS did not drop 50% of his targets, not even close. 50% of his targets did fall incomplete, that is not an opinion. Why we have this discussion on a regular basis... I don't know...
oh please, we have these debates because you rely on deceptive reporting to claim a point, Scantling just dropped 2 in a 10 play series for the Vikes, and he didn't catch plenty for us that most receivers could have made a better attempt to hall in.
never surpassed a 50% catch rate, and he probably never will.
Please what? Nothing I said was even remotely incorrect or misleading.
That Scantling "dropped 2 in a 10 play series for the Vikes" means absolutely nothing to this conversation. There were passes as a Packer he should have caught, no doubt! That still DOES NOT mean that he dropped 50% of his targets, not even close.
As usual, when called out for your false statements, you move the goal post. You expressly said that MVS DROPPED 50% of his targets. You said nothing about catch rate.
Moving the goal post with a false statement even. Ha!
image.png (1.81 KiB) Viewed 323 times
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
By yoop's utterly bonkers logic of all incompletions being drops ( ), Davante Adams dropped 46 passes last year.
[mention]Yoop[/mention] I know you don't care about facts when "proving" your point, but this is too much. Especially when you don't need to.
EVERYONE knows MVS had problems with bad drops especially early in his career. He got targeted almost only on deep throws that naturally have a lower completion % (not because AR is inaccurate deep, but because wind can affect it, DBs have more time to recover and overall more things can go wrong) than shorter throws, and MVS was notorious of dropping about half of the deep throws that were catchable. He got gradually better at it by his last season with us, but no one would praise him for great hands.
NO ONE is saying MVS was some great WR! My opinion was that he was at best a useful role player. His bad hands were a shame, because he coulda been a great deep threat and wasn't.
Drops and incompletions are not the same thing. MVS did not drop 50% of his targets, not even close. 50% of his targets did fall incomplete, that is not an opinion. Why we have this discussion on a regular basis... I don't know...
oh please, we have these debates because you rely on deceptive reporting to claim a point, Scantling just dropped 2 in a 10 play series for the Vikes, and he didn't catch plenty for us that most receivers could have made a better attempt to hall in.
never surpassed a 50% catch rate, and he probably never will.
Please what? Nothing I said was even remotely incorrect or misleading.
That Scantling "dropped 2 in a 10 play series for the Vikes" means absolutely nothing to this conversation. There were passes as a Packer he should have caught, no doubt! That still DOES NOT mean that he dropped 50% of his targets, not even close.
As usual, when called out for your false statements, you move the goal post. You expressly said that MVS DROPPED 50% of his targets. You said nothing about catch rate.
Moving the goal post with a false statement even. Ha!
image.png
I stand corrected for confusing catch rate to drops, again though Scantling has never exceeded a 50% catch rate, for whatever reason 50% of the balls thrown to MVS where not caught, I think the only time he exceeded a 100 yrds receiving game happened with 4 catches for 104, might have been a PO game, otherwise he rarely exceeded 50 yrds.
the fact that he was only able to haul in 50% of targets bothers me more then if he had dropped a few, that he couldn't even get a hand on 50% should also bother you, guess not.
By yoop's utterly bonkers logic of all incompletions being drops ( ), Davante Adams dropped 46 passes last year.
@Yoop I know you don't care about facts when "proving" your point, but this is too much. Especially when you don't need to.
EVERYONE knows MVS had problems with bad drops especially early in his career. He got targeted almost only on deep throws that naturally have a lower completion % (not because AR is inaccurate deep, but because wind can affect it, DBs have more time to recover and overall more things can go wrong) than shorter throws, and MVS was notorious of dropping about half of the deep throws that were catchable. He got gradually better at it by his last season with us, but no one would praise him for great hands.
NO ONE is saying MVS was some great WR! My opinion was that he was at best a useful role player. His bad hands were a shame, because he coulda been a great deep threat and was ??
the reason MVS didn't have that many drops is because 50% of the time he didn't even get to touch the ball, I don't think his hands where as much a problem as consistently running the route, which imo has been the case with others, Rodgers remarks concerning Doubs, he runs crisp and accurate routes should alert you people just how necessary that stuff is, guess not though.
lis, which is more important, a drop here or there ( sure we lose games because of drops) or consistently not being where the QB throws the ball? I'll take a drop here and there.
and Adams was targeted 150 plus times, and caught about 120, for 1500 yrds, it's a sin to even mention Adams and Scantling in the same sentence.
By yoop's utterly bonkers logic of all incompletions being drops ( ), Davante Adams dropped 46 passes last year.
BONKERS LOGIC ?whats stupid here is excepting that half the time Scantling didn't even get a hand on the ball, a few drops are correctable, not being able to consistently run a route, not so much.
to tell the truth I don't even keep tabs of drops, what I care about is for the receiver to arrive at the catch point on schedule with his QB, so I pay attention to catch rate and targeted throws, like I did pass pressures versus sacks, you know the stuff that actually does expose a more accurate tabulation of the players ability.
the reason MVS didn't have that many drops is because 50% of the time he didn't even get to touch the ball, I don't think his hands where as much a problem as consistently running the route, which imo has been the case with others, Rodgers remarks concerning Doubs, he runs crisp and accurate routes should alert you people just how necessary that stuff is, guess not though.
lis, which is more important, a drop here or there ( sure we lose games because of drops) or consistently not being where the QB throws the ball? I'll take a drop here and there.
and Adams was targeted 150 plus times, and caught about 120, for 1500 yrds, it's a sin to even mention Adams and Scantling in the same sentence.
Yes, MVS wasn't great at releases or consistency, either. I'm not gonna do a whole scouting report on every post. I think it's good he got a big deal with another team, because we need better. As for AR, see my sig.
Watson had more versatility on each of his college tapes than MVS has during his career... Doubs seems super promising, can't wait to see him in games.
it's a sin to even mention Adams and Scantling in the same sentence
what I care about is for the receiver to arrive at the catch point on schedule with his QB
How can you/we tell if the receiver arrives at the proper catch point on schedule with where the QB should throw it?
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
By yoop's utterly bonkers logic of all incompletions being drops ( ), Davante Adams dropped 46 passes last year.
BONKERS LOGIC ?whats stupid here is excepting that half the time Scantling didn't even get a hand on the ball, a few drops are correctable, not being able to consistently run a route, not so much.
to tell the truth I don't even keep tabs of drops, what I care about is for the receiver to arrive at the catch point on schedule with his QB, so I pay attention to catch rate and targeted throws, like I did pass pressures versus sacks, you know the stuff that actually does expose a more accurate tabulation of the players ability.
Except it's bonkers.
A) You have no way of knowing where a WR is supposed to be on a given play at what time. That's why "right place right time" isn't a stat. You just simply assume AR's timing and throws are always perfect, so all incomplete targets are WRs messing up somehow. That's some pagan god worship of Rodgers.
B) WRs who catch mostly short passes and easy WR screens always look great at catch rate and completion %. All deep threats would ALWAYS look bad. It's a horribly biased and flawed way of looking at stats.
We all know the WRs other than Adams sucked. You don't have to rape stats to prove it.
You have no way of knowing where a WR is supposed to be on a given play at what time. That's why "right place right time" isn't a stat. You just simply assume AR's timing and throws are always perfect, so all incomplete targets are WRs messing up somehow. That's some pagan god worship of Rodgers.
no this is you and others here exploiting my opinions, I've never said Rodgers is perfect, simply that he's closer to it then most of these raw and average talent receivers he's had to try and win with, and when a receiver can't get a hand on a pass my first instinct is it was his fault versus a HOF bound QB, yep guilty as charged.
I defend Rodgers because others don't, he gets the lions share of the blame for every loss, and usually does well enough that just a little help would be enough.
whats going on is you'll bitch up a storm when we lose, but argue with me that one more skill set player wouldn't have made a difference, when other teams in the league are loading up on skill position players
), Davante Adams dropped 46 passes last year. 
The irony....