Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 07:31
Good enough for me.
I mean he was kind of right about Savage. His rookie was....meh.
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Packers signing Devin Funchess
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Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 10:22
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 10:51
Yup, 39th in catch %. Ahead of Davonte Adams. Unfortunately look who is last among qualifying receivers. MVSPckfn23 wrote: ↑26 Mar 2020 12:1939th in catch %:
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/rece ... percentage
Foxsports credits him with only 2 drops:
https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/stats?sea ... r=0&page=4
I wouldn't say that is an issue with drops. I did agreed with BF that his hands need to get better though. Too many double clutches.
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/rece ... percentage
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 11:02
ahhhhh, the bummer is that as Savage just started to get up some game speed and scheme IQ, he was injured and lost about 4 games, imo thats huge, it takes away the momentum, and once back you have to build that back up again, I thought Savage played better towards the end, and I'am excited to see him resume his growth this season, I think people discount the injury.
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 11:06
I think people DO discount the injury, but I don't think it is the whole story, either. He was pretty up-and-down, regardless... as are most first year secondary players.Yoop wrote: ↑27 Mar 2020 11:02ahhhhh, the bummer is that as Savage just started to get up some game speed and scheme IQ, he was injured and lost about 4 games, imo thats huge, it takes away the momentum, and once back you have to build that back up again, I thought Savage played better towards the end, and I'am excited to see him resume his growth this season, I think people discount the injury.
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 12:13
I just feel like this is as good a place as any to mention this... since we've been discussing WRs and speed.
I think it is very obvious that you can be a GREAT WR without top-end speed--Adams, Michael Thomas, DeAndre Hopkins, Jerry Rice, T.O., the list goes on.
But I think that if, AS A TEAM, even with a couple great WRs, you lack speed, it changes the way defenses can play you. Even in the New England offense, which largely spreads the ball around with shorter, more horizontal routes, they're always seeking that Randy Moss/Brandin Cooks/Phillip Dorsett speed receiver to at least draw coverage and occasionally hit big plays, depending on how good they are/how well they work out.
Right now, the Packers are a team lacking that dynamic unless/until MVS develops into a true starting-level all-around contributor. I used some stats last year to show that in 2018 when MVS was starting, Adams did better than when Allison was starting (I dunno if that continued, but it was the case for the first half the season--Allison's first 4 games, then the four games after he got hurt). Similarly, the Texans perform better when Will fuller is healthy opposite Hopkins. Even Michael Irving had Alvin Harper, ya know?
Speed opens things up, and I am and have been concerned that with Lazzard, Adams, Kumerow, then Allison and now Funchess... even that CFL guy we signed is an average speed guy, though smaller.... we're accumulating, as I said earlier, too many power forwards. Let's call Adams the point guard... We need some wings. Maybe MVS and EQSB can do some of that, but I view EQSB as more of a build-up speed guy (I really like him, don't get me wrong) and we're still lacking that BURST
I think it is very obvious that you can be a GREAT WR without top-end speed--Adams, Michael Thomas, DeAndre Hopkins, Jerry Rice, T.O., the list goes on.
But I think that if, AS A TEAM, even with a couple great WRs, you lack speed, it changes the way defenses can play you. Even in the New England offense, which largely spreads the ball around with shorter, more horizontal routes, they're always seeking that Randy Moss/Brandin Cooks/Phillip Dorsett speed receiver to at least draw coverage and occasionally hit big plays, depending on how good they are/how well they work out.
Right now, the Packers are a team lacking that dynamic unless/until MVS develops into a true starting-level all-around contributor. I used some stats last year to show that in 2018 when MVS was starting, Adams did better than when Allison was starting (I dunno if that continued, but it was the case for the first half the season--Allison's first 4 games, then the four games after he got hurt). Similarly, the Texans perform better when Will fuller is healthy opposite Hopkins. Even Michael Irving had Alvin Harper, ya know?
Speed opens things up, and I am and have been concerned that with Lazzard, Adams, Kumerow, then Allison and now Funchess... even that CFL guy we signed is an average speed guy, though smaller.... we're accumulating, as I said earlier, too many power forwards. Let's call Adams the point guard... We need some wings. Maybe MVS and EQSB can do some of that, but I view EQSB as more of a build-up speed guy (I really like him, don't get me wrong) and we're still lacking that BURST
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 12:17
I completely agree, having some team speed is important.
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 12:21
New England did wonderful things with Wes Welker too, guy had sneaky speed.YoHoChecko wrote: ↑27 Mar 2020 12:13I just feel like this is as good a place as any to mention this... since we've been discussing WRs and speed.
I think it is very obvious that you can be a GREAT WR without top-end speed--Adams, Michael Thomas, DeAndre Hopkins, Jerry Rice, T.O., the list goes on.
But I think that if, AS A TEAM, even with a couple great WRs, you lack speed, it changes the way defenses can play you. Even in the New England offense, which largely spreads the ball around with shorter, more horizontal routes, they're always seeking that Randy Moss/Brandin Cooks/Phillip Dorsett speed receiver to at least draw coverage and occasionally hit big plays, depending on how good they are/how well they work out.
Right now, the Packers are a team lacking that dynamic unless/until MVS develops into a true starting-level all-around contributor. I used some stats last year to show that in 2018 when MVS was starting, Adams did better than when Allison was starting (I dunno if that continued, but it was the case for the first half the season--Allison's first 4 games, then the four games after he got hurt). Similarly, the Texans perform better when Will fuller is healthy opposite Hopkins. Even Michael Irving had Alvin Harper, ya know?
Speed opens things up, and I am and have been concerned that with Lazzard, Adams, Kumerow, then Allison and now Funchess... even that CFL guy we signed is an average speed guy, though smaller.... we're accumulating, as I said earlier, too many power forwards. Let's call Adams the point guard... We need some wings. Maybe MVS and EQSB can do some of that, but I view EQSB as more of a build-up speed guy (I really like him, don't get me wrong) and we're still lacking that BURST
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 12:35
this is a great great point Yoho. Its not that one guy lacks speed, its that collectively the only guy with speed on the field is aaron jones and he is more shifty/quick than sprinters fast, which is fine.TheGreenMan wrote: ↑27 Mar 2020 12:21New England did wonderful things with Wes Welker too, guy had sneaky speed.YoHoChecko wrote: ↑27 Mar 2020 12:13I just feel like this is as good a place as any to mention this... since we've been discussing WRs and speed.
I think it is very obvious that you can be a GREAT WR without top-end speed--Adams, Michael Thomas, DeAndre Hopkins, Jerry Rice, T.O., the list goes on.
But I think that if, AS A TEAM, even with a couple great WRs, you lack speed, it changes the way defenses can play you. Even in the New England offense, which largely spreads the ball around with shorter, more horizontal routes, they're always seeking that Randy Moss/Brandin Cooks/Phillip Dorsett speed receiver to at least draw coverage and occasionally hit big plays, depending on how good they are/how well they work out.
Right now, the Packers are a team lacking that dynamic unless/until MVS develops into a true starting-level all-around contributor. I used some stats last year to show that in 2018 when MVS was starting, Adams did better than when Allison was starting (I dunno if that continued, but it was the case for the first half the season--Allison's first 4 games, then the four games after he got hurt). Similarly, the Texans perform better when Will fuller is healthy opposite Hopkins. Even Michael Irving had Alvin Harper, ya know?
Speed opens things up, and I am and have been concerned that with Lazzard, Adams, Kumerow, then Allison and now Funchess... even that CFL guy we signed is an average speed guy, though smaller.... we're accumulating, as I said earlier, too many power forwards. Let's call Adams the point guard... We need some wings. Maybe MVS and EQSB can do some of that, but I view EQSB as more of a build-up speed guy (I really like him, don't get me wrong) and we're still lacking that BURST
We dont even have to have a djax typer straight line speed guy, even though arguably thats what MVS would be if he could catch. Adams may not have straight line speed, but he is very good because he runs great routes, and can get in and out of movements very quick. He runs smooth, not clunky like Rashan Gary. One straight line guy that can catch (potentially MVS), an Adams, and one more guy that is just quick and not clunky, somebody that can actually juke a defender is what this team needs.
Totally agree that the problem isnt one guys lack of speed, its everyone being generally slow. Great post.
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 12:56
I am not 100% sold on this theory (if the theory is that a team needs at least 1 speed guy to have a dynamic offense). See Saints, 2017 Steelers, just 2 examples right off the top of my head. I do agree that speed is a nice thing to have from at least 1 of your top 3 WRs and it does open some other things up.
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 13:07
The exception doesn't disprove the rule.
When Rodgers starts completing 70% of his passes and taking virtually no sacks, maybe we could also be an exception.
But besides, why did they sign Ted Ginn (their technical #2 WR) when they lost Brandin Cooks?
It's true that these guys are somewhat role players, but Cooks and Ginn have been second on the Saints in WR receptions for the past several years, with the exception of 2018 when Ginn was hurt. Now that Ginn has really fallen off, they, like us, are considered a team in desperate need of a WR to help out.
They focus on RBs and a TE and Thomas in the passing game, that's true. But they at all times have a capable speed WR on the team in their top 2/3 WRs.
And 2017 Steelers: Martavis Bryant, 4.42, had 50 catches as the #3 receiver.
It just seems pretty blatant that having team speed forces teams to account for more possibilities. Look at the way we played the Chiefs last year--and other teams did, as well. You have to account for it.
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 13:14
MVS is really going to need to do something here this up and coming year. He didn't look any faster than any of the other WR's out there in 2019, I saw very little separation.Drj820 wrote: ↑27 Mar 2020 12:35this is a great great point Yoho. Its not that one guy lacks speed, its that collectively the only guy with speed on the field is aaron jones and he is more shifty/quick than sprinters fast, which is fine.TheGreenMan wrote: ↑27 Mar 2020 12:21New England did wonderful things with Wes Welker too, guy had sneaky speed.YoHoChecko wrote: ↑27 Mar 2020 12:13I just feel like this is as good a place as any to mention this... since we've been discussing WRs and speed.
I think it is very obvious that you can be a GREAT WR without top-end speed--Adams, Michael Thomas, DeAndre Hopkins, Jerry Rice, T.O., the list goes on.
But I think that if, AS A TEAM, even with a couple great WRs, you lack speed, it changes the way defenses can play you. Even in the New England offense, which largely spreads the ball around with shorter, more horizontal routes, they're always seeking that Randy Moss/Brandin Cooks/Phillip Dorsett speed receiver to at least draw coverage and occasionally hit big plays, depending on how good they are/how well they work out.
Right now, the Packers are a team lacking that dynamic unless/until MVS develops into a true starting-level all-around contributor. I used some stats last year to show that in 2018 when MVS was starting, Adams did better than when Allison was starting (I dunno if that continued, but it was the case for the first half the season--Allison's first 4 games, then the four games after he got hurt). Similarly, the Texans perform better when Will fuller is healthy opposite Hopkins. Even Michael Irving had Alvin Harper, ya know?
Speed opens things up, and I am and have been concerned that with Lazzard, Adams, Kumerow, then Allison and now Funchess... even that CFL guy we signed is an average speed guy, though smaller.... we're accumulating, as I said earlier, too many power forwards. Let's call Adams the point guard... We need some wings. Maybe MVS and EQSB can do some of that, but I view EQSB as more of a build-up speed guy (I really like him, don't get me wrong) and we're still lacking that BURST
We dont even have to have a djax typer straight line speed guy, even though arguably thats what MVS would be if he could catch. Adams may not have straight line speed, but he is very good because he runs great routes, and can get in and out of movements very quick. He runs smooth, not clunky like Rashan Gary. One straight line guy that can catch (potentially MVS), an Adams, and one more guy that is just quick and not clunky, somebody that can actually juke a defender is what this team needs.
Totally agree that the problem isnt one guys lack of speed, its everyone being generally slow. Great post.
Nor am I, but I certainly can think of more teams that had at least one guy that was a speedy WR. Eagles with Torrey Smith, Seahawks with Tate, Pats obviously with Welker, Ravens had Torrey Smith too for their Super Bowl win if I remember.
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 13:19
Ginn was 33 and 34 the last 2 seasons. His speed isn't there like it was when he ran at the combine 13 years ago. For reference the median age of world class sprinters is 26. At one point you could say that he brought speed to an offense, but I don't believe that is true any longer. While not slow, the speed you are talking about that opens up an offense isn't there.
Cooks, while he was fast for a TE when he was drafted 11 years ago, doesn't possess that speed you are talking about.
I agree speed is nice and does open things up, I just don't think it is necessary to have a great passing attack. It makes it easier though, I agree.
Cooks, while he was fast for a TE when he was drafted 11 years ago, doesn't possess that speed you are talking about.
I agree speed is nice and does open things up, I just don't think it is necessary to have a great passing attack. It makes it easier though, I agree.
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 13:24
Has he lost a little speed? Yeah, you are probably right. Enough that he isn't still the fastest WR in the room? No, probably not. Fast is fast. Ginn is speed WR and still perfectly functional.Pckfn23 wrote: ↑27 Mar 2020 13:19Ginn was 33 and 34 the last 2 seasons. His speed isn't there like it was when he ran at the combine 13 years ago. For reference the median age of world class sprinters is 26. At one point you could say that he brought speed to an offense, but I don't believe that is true any longer. While not slow, the speed you are talking about that opens up an offense isn't there.
I am pretty sure he means Brandin Cooks.
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 13:32
Ginn is a good receiver, but he isn't running a sub-4.5 anymore. At 33-34 it just isn't happening, age kills speed pretty quickly. He 100% still has functional speed, but I do not believe he has the speed that Yoho is referencing.
That makes more sense on Cooks, but he hasn't been on the Saints since 2016.
That makes more sense on Cooks, but he hasn't been on the Saints since 2016.
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 13:36
Let me rephrase what I am saying. I 100% agree that having at least 1 speed guy at WR helps open an offense and makes it easier to be a great passing attack. I don't agree that it is a necessity to have this speed guy to have a great passing attack. (Maybe that is what you were originally saying, if so, sorry I misread it)
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 14:02
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑27 Mar 2020 13:36Let me rephrase what I am saying. I 100% agree that having at least 1 speed guy at WR helps open an offense and makes it easier to be a great passing attack. I don't agree that it is a necessity to have this speed guy to have a great passing attack. (Maybe that is what you were originally saying, if so, sorry I misread it)
so it is not a law that you have to have a speed guy to have a good passing attack? I would agree with this because there are FEW but some exceptions.
But does it help? Do most prolific offenses have a speed guy? Does it help the QB, and the offense? Does it make the Defense spend time scheming how to stop a speed guy?
I would say...absolutely yes, to all of those questions. So just because you can find an exception or two, you dont subscribe to the theory? Thats fine i guess, but even though it may not be a law that is 100% true, i would say it is certainly generally true.
Rodgers is aging, maybe losing some accuracy, if we had a speed guy that defenses had to game plan for, plus an Adams, a rb like Jones, and a big guy like Lazard...i absolutely think it would help everyone and stretch the field out more for the slow guys underneath.
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 14:10
There is probably more than a few, but I would agree, they would not be the majority.
I am all in on saying that a speed guy who can actually consistently contribute would help make our passing game better!
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 14:13
yes, I think most people would agree, we are slow, and more speed is needed at both WR and lber.
so obvious last year when we where forced to align Jones as a WR, those kinds of quicks are really hard to cover one on one, and Jones burned the DB's he faced, right now we lack a consistent fast guy, MVS doesn't know how to use his speed yet who can say if he ever will, having a guy with 4.4 speed, with great separation skills could really spark our passing game.
so obvious last year when we where forced to align Jones as a WR, those kinds of quicks are really hard to cover one on one, and Jones burned the DB's he faced, right now we lack a consistent fast guy, MVS doesn't know how to use his speed yet who can say if he ever will, having a guy with 4.4 speed, with great separation skills could really spark our passing game.
Re: Packers signing Devin Funchess
Posted: 27 Mar 2020 14:15
yeah good point. Us having to move Jones out there, just shows we didnt have anyone who could do what he could do out there that played WR. Would have been ideal to have a slot guy do what we were asking Jones to do, PLUS just have Jones in the back field as someone else to have to think about.Yoop wrote: ↑27 Mar 2020 14:13yes, I think most people would agree, we are slow, and more speed is needed at both WR and lber.
so obvious last year when we where forced to align Jones as a WR, those kinds of quicks are really hard to cover one on one, and Jones burned the DB's he faced, right now we lack a consistent fast guy, MVS doesn't know how to use his speed yet who can say if he ever will, having a guy with 4.4 speed, with great separation skills could really spark our passing game.