Packers Huddle

Why are we so set of defending MVS and Lazard? They suck.

Because they don't. They aren't world beaters or #1s but they certainly don't suck. Lazard is an average #2 with potential. MVS a good #3.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 13:52

Why are we so set of defending MVS and Lazard? They suck. Lazards best assett is what he does when he doesnt have the ball, he is competent at receiving the ball and not very good at getting open. He is a niche player due to great run blocking skills, and should come in for specific scenarios or be about WR4.

MVS is a one trick pony who can run fast in a straight line. He played really well in the NFCCG, but before that he had tons of drops in key spots and didnt get open very often..even with all attention going to Adams and Jones.

But guess what? It still doesnt mean the O doesnt have enough talent to succeed. The Packers had Adams, Jones, Tonyan, a HOF QB, the best center in football and LT. Combine that with a great schemer like MLF and they had plenty of gas to get the job done.

Yet still it can be true, even though MVS still has room to grow...he and Lazard both kind of suck.

I disagree strongly that both suck. MVS is one of the league's best #3 WRs Lazard is an extremely useful big slot.

Our problem is that we're asking these two to team up and fill the #2 role and neither is all that good at it. But if you look at the production, I mean, MVS is barely a notch below Robby Anderson who's making $10M a year--Anderson was just more consistent earlier on in his career. But leading the league in yards per catch as a fulltime player means that maybe you only have one trick, but you're literally among the best in the league at it.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 13:52

Why are we so set of defending MVS and Lazard? They suck. Lazards best assett is what he does when he doesnt have the ball, he is competent at receiving the ball and not very good at getting open. He is a niche player due to great run blocking skills, and should come in for specific scenarios or be about WR4.

MVS is a one trick pony who can run fast in a straight line. He played really well in the NFCCG, but before that he had tons of drops in key spots and didnt get open very often..even with all attention going to Adams and Jones.

But guess what? It still doesnt mean the O doesnt have enough talent to succeed. The Packers had Adams, Jones, Tonyan, a HOF QB, the best center in football and LT. Combine that with a great schemer like MLF and they had plenty of gas to get the job done.

Yet still it can be true, even though MVS still has room to grow...he and Lazard both kind of suck.

hey MVS was rated #34 WR in the entire league, just think where he'd be rated minus the drops and the ability to double cut a route, as I said Rodgers ability to read these receivers minds has helped them probably more then any other QB could have.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 13:58

Drj820 wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 13:52

Why are we so set of defending MVS and Lazard? They suck. Lazards best assett is what he does when he doesnt have the ball, he is competent at receiving the ball and not very good at getting open. He is a niche player due to great run blocking skills, and should come in for specific scenarios or be about WR4.

MVS is a one trick pony who can run fast in a straight line. He played really well in the NFCCG, but before that he had tons of drops in key spots and didnt get open very often..even with all attention going to Adams and Jones.

But guess what? It still doesnt mean the O doesnt have enough talent to succeed. The Packers had Adams, Jones, Tonyan, a HOF QB, the best center in football and LT. Combine that with a great schemer like MLF and they had plenty of gas to get the job done.

Yet still it can be true, even though MVS still has room to grow...he and Lazard both kind of suck.

I disagree strongly that both suck. MVS is one of the league's best #3 WRs Lazard is an extremely useful big slot.

Our problem is that we're asking these two to team up and fill the #2 role and neither is all that good at it. But if you look at the production, I mean, MVS is barely a notch below Robby Anderson who's making $10M a year--Anderson was just more consistent earlier on in his career. But leading the league in yards per catch as a fulltime player means that maybe you only have one trick, but you're literally among the best in the league at it.

Okay yes I will tone down my hyperbole and agree with you..they suck because we are expecting and asking them to do too much. MVS is a 5th round pick and plays like it. He and Lazard though are both niche players and should not be top one or two options in any successful offense.

This is how I think we overrate them, if the Packers announced today they were both on the trade block, who would give up loot for them?

My guess is somebody who may want a niche straight line burner may call about MVS..not anybody looking for a WR2. I kind of think he would hit the wire. He was really bad for long stretches the past couple of years.

And I bet Lazard would be forced to hit the waiver wire...where he may slip all the way through.

Yoop wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 14:01

Drj820 wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 13:52

Why are we so set of defending MVS and Lazard? They suck. Lazards best assett is what he does when he doesnt have the ball, he is competent at receiving the ball and not very good at getting open. He is a niche player due to great run blocking skills, and should come in for specific scenarios or be about WR4.

MVS is a one trick pony who can run fast in a straight line. He played really well in the NFCCG, but before that he had tons of drops in key spots and didnt get open very often..even with all attention going to Adams and Jones.

But guess what? It still doesnt mean the O doesnt have enough talent to succeed. The Packers had Adams, Jones, Tonyan, a HOF QB, the best center in football and LT. Combine that with a great schemer like MLF and they had plenty of gas to get the job done.

Yet still it can be true, even though MVS still has room to grow...he and Lazard both kind of suck.

hey MVS was rated #34 WR in the entire league, just think where he'd be rated minus the drops and the ability to double cut a route,

Again. you don't know how numbers work. #34 in the league means you are technically the 2nd best #2 WR in league. It's not unreasonable to expect that the #1 WRs on the rest of the 32 teams should be better than our #2 and #3 WR.

It's why I said I was actually surprised how good those rankings were because I wouldn't put them that high.

I'm not going to say MVS is a red chip player which your better #2 WRs could be considered red chip. But I will also not call MVS and Lazard sucky players because they aren't and the data suggests they aren't. Not bad from two players who combined have just a little more than $3 million on the cap.

The offense doesnt require more fire power to be successful while Rodgers is QB. It is successful as is with MLF the coach.

Also, GPG and YoHo are correct that Lazard and MVS dont suck when you factor in their cap hit and draft positions..that stuff is true.

But sometimes in here we get carried away about what those guys are. Some think they can be competent WR2s. Pen23 said as much again before he edited his post.

Thats what I am pushing back against. Its not that Lazard and MVS suck..its that they suck as WR2s to me.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 14:12

The offense doesnt require more fire power to be successful while Rodgers is QB. It is successful as is with MLF the coach.

Also, GPG and YoHo are correct that Lazard and MVS dont suck when you factor in their cap hit and draft positions..that stuff is true.

But sometimes in here we get carried away about what those guys are. Some think they can be competent WR2s. Pen23 said as much again before he edited his post.

Thats what I am pushing back against. Its not that Lazard and MVS suck..its that they suck as WR2s to me.

I think they can interchange to be competent #2's in our offensive system. They have shown they can interchange to be competent #2's in our offensive system. There is a big difference between a competent #2, which we have, and an excellent #2 which is what this forum wants and anything less seems to be undesirable.

And honestly as a Packers fan I get it. The Packers have had such ridiculously talented #2 WR's from 2006 - 2016 that our expectations are a bit higher for that position.

Even as #2s they don't suck.

See AV and see FO.

go pak go wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 14:19

Drj820 wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 14:12

The offense doesnt require more fire power to be successful while Rodgers is QB. It is successful as is with MLF the coach.

Also, GPG and YoHo are correct that Lazard and MVS dont suck when you factor in their cap hit and draft positions..that stuff is true.

But sometimes in here we get carried away about what those guys are. Some think they can be competent WR2s. Pen23 said as much again before he edited his post.

Thats what I am pushing back against. Its not that Lazard and MVS suck..its that they suck as WR2s to me.

I think they can interchange to be competent #2's in our offensive system. They have shown they can interchange to be competent #2's in our offensive system. There is a big difference between a competent #2, which we have, and an excellent #2 which is what this forum wants and anything less seems to be undesirable.

And honestly as a Packers fan I get it. The Packers have had such ridiculously talented #2 WR's from 2006 - 2016 that our expectations are a bit higher for that position.

any receiver can be a #2, it all depends on what you expect from a #2 receiver, and scheme can obviously suit some players better then others, Lafluers schemes with motion and deception helps every receiver get off the los quick which gives them a edge on the coverage, helped Adams just as it did the others, as well as Rodgers have another MVP season.

I think we just drafted our #2 receiver and Lazard and MVS will duel each other for #3 targets, my money is on MVS.

Yoop wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 14:40

I think we just drafted our #2 receiver and Lazard and MVS will duel each other for #3 targets, my money is on MVS.

In 2021? I think MVS and Lazard are both poised to see more targets this year than Rodgers. He is not walking into a #2 role.

Teams go into the week thinking they will have to have a special plan to stop Adams. I doubt Lazard even makes the scouting report when discussing things to fear about the Packers Offense. It hasnt been neccessary until NFCCGs, but a competent Number 2 would at least help Adams out and make opposing defenses consider them when reviewing film.

NCF wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 14:41

Yoop wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 14:40

I think we just drafted our #2 receiver and Lazard and MVS will duel each other for #3 targets, my money is on MVS.

In 2021? I think MVS and Lazard are both poised to see more targets this year than Rodgers. He is not walking into a #2 role.

I'm actually fascinated by how the snaps will be distributed.

So like Devin Funchess and Allen Lazard are extremely similar player types--big slots with outstanding height, good girth, and do a lot of work in the middle of the field.

MVS is exclusively an outside threat and can take the top off--there's no one else really in that mold.

EQSB is smoother than quick and despite having similar size to Lazzard and Funchess, projects more as a reserve outside WR. Seems like he should be a capable #2 backup, but we just don't see it much.

Rodgers now is the more traditional slot role, plus the jet sweeps and gadgety stuff. Malik Taylor, interestingly, is sort of a similar skillset, but not as good and we haven't really seen what sort of non-ST role the team likes him in. Seems like a longshot to remain, but could also beat out EQSB for a roster spot.

So the result is that MVS seems to have minimal competition for an outside WR role. Meanwhile, Funchess and Lazard are competing for almost the same role. And you have to wonder how often Rodgers shares the field with the big slots. We don't use a ton of 4-wide (barely any, really), so it seems rare that we'll have two guys operating out of a slot position, but we have a ton of options; some direct competition for the same role, and a schematic competition for when we use varying types of slot weapons.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 14:44

Teams go into the week thinking they will have to have a special plan to stop Adams. I doubt Lazard even makes the scouting report when discussing things to fear about the Packers Offense. It hasnt been neccessary until NFCCGs, but a competent Number 2 would at least help Adams out and make opposing defenses consider them when reviewing film.

I actually think "helping Adams" is the MVS role. I did a workup of Adams' stats two years ago when he played with MVS versus when he played with Allison and Adams' numbers were significantly better next to MVS. MVS draws attention from safeties because he's a deep threat. I think it's vital to replace that role if/when MVS leaves after '21. Deep speed opens things up.

MVS and Lazard absolutely make the scouting report. They play. They both help in different ways. 2 different games.

They can be competent/average #2s.

Had Lazard not gotten hurt, I could see us talking about him as a good #2. It reminds me of Adams and his 2nd year, to a lesser extent.

[mention]go pak go[/mention] hit the nail on the head with comparing to the Jennings, Nelson, Driver, Jones years. It has lead to some unrealistic expectations.

Which teams have a better #2? I'll start:
Falcons

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 14:52

Which teams have a better #2? I'll start:
Falcons

Oh fun!

Browns

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 14:52

MVS and Lazard absolutely make the scouting report. They play. They both help in different ways. 2 different games.

They can be competent/average #2s.

Had Lazard not gotten hurt, I could see us talking about him as a good #2. It reminds me of Adams and his 2nd year, to a lesser extent.

@go pak go hit the nail on the head with comparing to the Jennings, Nelson, Driver, Jones years. It has lead to some unrealistic expectations.

Which teams have a better #2? I'll start:
Falcons

The Rams have a nice complimentary duo. [mention]YoHoChecko[/mention] pointed out a big problem with our group and it's that other than Adams, it is kind of a bunch of one-trick ponies. You would like to see a little more versatility. I know LaFleur loves his basketball team analogy, but every good basketball line-up features guys that can slide into multiple positions. We are just a little too one dimensional, individually, even if not one dimensional overall... it's weird.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 14:52

MVS and Lazard absolutely make the scouting report. They play. They both help in different ways. 2 different games.

They can be competent/average #2s.

Had Lazard not gotten hurt, I could see us talking about him as a good #2. It reminds me of Adams and his 2nd year, to a lesser extent.

@go pak go hit the nail on the head with comparing to the Jennings, Nelson, Driver, Jones years. It has lead to some unrealistic expectations.

Which teams have a better #2? I'll start:
Falcons

Surely we arent delusional enough to think Allen Lazard is just waiting to blossom into Davante Adams.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 14:44

Teams go into the week thinking they will have to have a special plan to stop Adams. I doubt Lazard even makes the scouting report when discussing things to fear about the Packers Offense. It hasnt been neccessary until NFCCGs, but a competent Number 2 would at least help Adams out and make opposing defenses consider them when reviewing film.

We are getting into the territory of "having better players at every position is better" conversation here.

Fortunately for the Packers offense, our unit works just fine with the WR corps we have because we have a great RB duo, TE and Oline to help tighten the talent gap at WR after Adams.

It's why our offense was #1 last year. The 2020 Packers offense was basically the 2019 49ers offense except a serious upgrade at the QB spot and WR1 spot. We were what we wanted to be last year. Now this year we have Dillon who is poised for a breakout season and drafted Rodgers who should provide that coveted role we all wanted in this offense.

I just think there is a LOT to be excited about this offense. As long as Josh Meyers isn't a significant step back his rookie year, we should be very, very good.

So like Devin Funchess and Allen Lazard are extremely similar player types--big slots with outstanding height, good girth, and do a lot of work in the middle of the field.

This isn't Allen Lazard any longer since losing weight.

There is still a stigma on Lazard that he is a borderline TE. Not the case.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/0 ... ion-group/

In college, he felt like being a bigger receiver worked to his benefit. In the pros, it seemed like everyone viewed that negatively. In the offseason, Lazard wanted to change that.

"I look at the guys in my room and I'm comparing myself to them all the time," said Lazard, who reported to Jacksonville at 233 pounds. "Looking at the tight ends, I started to realize I was getting closer to the tight ends than the receivers. And I didn't want to do that."

Training in Denver, where he lives with his girlfriend, Lazard became ultra-conscious of his weight and diet. He cut McDonald's and fast food out and put together a training plan.

Packers offensive coordinator Nathaniel Hackett, who held the same post in Jacksonville during Lazard's rookie year, mentioned recently how the receiver appeared 20 pounds lighter when he reported for training camp in July.

That's because Lazard literally was…and it's been reflected in his play.

"I just feel a lot lighter. I feel a lot more explosive in running," Lazard said. "Before, I did feel like I was kind of carrying something. Now, I feel more aggressive and powerful in my running."

https://www.packers.com/news/nothing-gi ... -green-bay

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

18 May 2021 14:52

MVS and Lazard absolutely make the scouting report. They play. They both help in different ways. 2 different games.

They can be competent/average #2s.

Had Lazard not gotten hurt, I could see us talking about him as a good #2. It reminds me of Adams and his 2nd year, to a lesser extent.

@go pak go hit the nail on the head with comparing to the Jennings, Nelson, Driver, Jones years. It has lead to some unrealistic expectations.

Which teams have a better #2? I'll start:
Falcons

Minnesota, LA Rams and Seattle

1. Atlanta
2. Browns
3. Minnesota
4. LA Rams
5. Seattle