height/weight players without the speed to play consistently outside
This is Funchess, this is not Lazard. That is your mistake, in my opinion.
And yet in their careers, Funchess has played more outside than Lazard. So that is your mistake, in my opinion.
In a run heavy scheme that relies on blocking from the WR position, both can be useful in that regard with their size and effort. But you are creating this version of Lazard that has yet to fully develop while ignoring the version of Funchess that has already existed.
They're feel players--they're hole-in-the-zone players. They're right-place, right-time players. And they're tall and strong players. And they're both competing for snaps as big slots on our team--the role which Lazard himself played substantially for us, so I'm not sure why you're arguing against it.
Where they have played is very much scheme-based and not necessarily player/body-type based. Your point though contradicts your previous position that neither have the speed to play outside. Tall possession/slower receivers generally do play outside more as they generally don't have the agility/shiftiness to play slot.
You are changing up what you said Funchess is. You said Funchess was a strength and body player and Lazard was a right place, right time player. The goalposts are moving.
I don't care when it's Adams burning Stokes. I will understand when that happens. And that was a popular storyline from last week of how "Stokes mentality is good. yada yada yada."...I've heard all that.
I do start noticing when it's Juwann Winfree burning Stokes. Now I am excited about Winfree. But this is a roster castoff/practice squad guy destroying our 1st round pick and fastest guy on the field.
Stokes won with speed/athleticism in college, but that's not enough in the NFL. He needs to learn how to read NFL offenses, recognize route combos and read WR body language so he can anticipate - instead of just reacting and leaning on his blazing speed. If you remember last season, this offense had lots of guys running free and destroying multi-year vets at CB. Zero surprise he got beat by Winfree or anybody else.
He will get there...but it takes some time with Jerry Gray and lots of reps - and a few embarrassments along the way. While he focuses on learning new techniques, it may be a bit ugly to watch. No worries, its part of the process. He's totally worth the pick, but he's not a plug n play CB yet.
Your patience will be rewarded, I promise.
NO! We must make a determination within his first week of training camp!!! BUST I TELL YOU, BUUUUUSSSSTTT!
Where they have played is very much scheme-based and not necessarily player/body-type based. Your point though contradicts your previous position that neither have the speed to play outside. Tall possession/slower receivers generally do play outside more as they generally don't have the agility/shiftiness to play slot.
You are changing up what you said Funchess is. You said Funchess was a strength and body player and Lazard was a right place, right time player. The goalposts are moving.
The goalposts are and always have been that they have many similarities and are competing for the same role.
My point that neither have the traits to be high-quality #2 WRs tracks witht he fact that neither have had particularly productive careers. My points that Lazard has played in the slot more than Funchess in their careers was to counter the notion that one is One Thing and the other is ANother Thing. They are both marginal starting receivers whose role on this team would be to play outside in heavier packages where MVS is not on the field or inside as the big slot when MVS is on the field. Outside, they are more valuable as possession and blocking receivers. Inside, they are both more of a big slot target, which generally (not always) means shorter routes, middle of the field, high-traffic scenarios.
The comparison and the c=goalposts have always been the same--not that they are identical--but that they have some similar strengths (height, strength, blocking, contested catches) and some similar weaknesses (quickness, pure hands, speed--though admittedly Funchess is slower) and that they are competing for what likely is one role, one roster spot for us.
It's true that Funchess had more in common with Allison than he does with Lazard. It may be true that EQ has more in common with Lazard than Lazard does with Funchess (EQ being the fastest of our 6'5" receivers, but also the least refined, and least productive). But when I'm looking at who is going to play what roles for this team, I see these three guys competing for one role, despite some differences in their games. They are similar ENOUGH and their role on the team, should they make it, would be similar ENOUGH that I see them in direct competition with each other.
The nod toward Lazard comes from familiarity (both with Rodgers and the offense and to the fans) and recency (as Funchess had the injury and COVID opt-out). If we were comparing Funchess coming off of his 2018 season and Lazard coming off of his 2020 season, you'd see that statistically, numerically, productively, measurably, these guys look awfully similar; only Funchess had a bit of a breakout in 2019, more so than Lazard has assembled just yet.
The fact that Lazard is a RFA, not an URFA after this season is something I overlooked. The fact that they were both in final years was another reason I found them similar. The ease of retaining Lazard on a tender is a pretty nice tiebreaker if you're forward-looking.
The only reason you feel the goalposts are moving is because you're forcing so much conversation over a rather broad assessment that seems fairly uncontroversial, that you now are seeing small details that leave room for disagreement or contradiction; that, to me, is why I call it splitting hairs.
Re: General Packer News 2021
Posted: 05 Aug 2021 12:19
by Pckfn23
he (Lazard) wins by knowing the right place to be and having a feel for it and always finding the right spot. Funchess wins more with strength and body control,
This changed in the last 2 posts:
They're feel players--they're hole-in-the-zone players. They're right-place, right-time players. And they're tall and strong players.
You're yooping it!
They are definitely more similar players than MVS compared to Adams, but I don't believe they are so similar that they are in direct competition with each other for a roster spot, have to pick one because they give you the exact same thing.
The only reason you feel the goalposts are moving is because you're forcing so much conversation over a rather broad assessment that seems fairly uncontroversial, that you now are seeing small details that leave room for disagreement or contradiction; that, to me, is why I call it splitting hairs.
The small details matter. For example you compared Funchess' 2018 stats to Lazards 2020. First, why would we compared those 2 years? Second, Funchess had 159 more snaps that Lazard! That makes a hell of difference. FUnchess was general healthy that year, Lazard was not.
I agree with much of what you say in the above post. However, I believe you are trying to pigeon hole these guys into the same hole, unnecessarily.
The fact that Lazard is a RFA, not an URFA after this season is something I overlooked. The fact that they were both in final years was another reason I found them similar. The ease of retaining Lazard on a tender is a pretty nice tiebreaker if you're forward-looking.
he (Lazard) wins by knowing the right place to be and having a feel for it and always finding the right spot. Funchess wins more with strength and body control,
This changed in the last 2 posts:
They're feel players--they're hole-in-the-zone players. They're right-place, right-time players. And they're tall and strong players.
You're yooping it!
They are definitely more similar players than MVS compared to Adams, but I don't believe they are so similar that they are in direct competition with each other for a roster spot, have to pick one because they give you the exact same thing.
The only reason you feel the goalposts are moving is because you're forcing so much conversation over a rather broad assessment that seems fairly uncontroversial, that you now are seeing small details that leave room for disagreement or contradiction; that, to me, is why I call it splitting hairs.
The small details matter. For example you compared Funchess' 2018 stats to Lazards 2020. First, why would we compared those 2 years? Second, Funchess had 159 more snaps that Lazard! That makes a hell of difference. FUnchess was general healthy that year, Lazard was not.
I agree with much of what you say in the above post. However, I believe you are trying to pigeon hole these guys into the same hole, unnecessarily.
for god sakes 23, who do u think there competing against if not each other? these two are practically identical players, both are Lanky possesion type receivers, I think Yoho was comparing both when they where healthy
you nit pick others to death just as you have me for years, and are attempting to do now, to funny.
Re: General Packer News 2021
Posted: 05 Aug 2021 12:40
by Drj820
I agree they are comparable, agree Lazard doesn’t play fast, agree Lazard and Fuchess are in competition for same spot...and if it comes down between the two I still would think the younger player...Lazard...would win out in that competition.
I could see a world where they both make the roster tho and EQ is odd man out. But It wouldn’t hurt my feeling at all if Fuchess, EQ, or Lazard didn’t make the cut.
Re: General Packer News 2021
Posted: 05 Aug 2021 12:41
by YoHoChecko
pckfn23 wrote:The small details matter. For example you compared Funchess' 2018 stats to Lazards 2020. First, why would we compared those 2 years? Second, Funchess had 159 more snaps that Lazard! That makes a hell of difference. FUnchess was general healthy that year, Lazard was not.
I think Yoho was comparing both when they where healthy
Yeah, Funchess literally hasn't played more than a game since 2018, so I used that. What do you want me to do, post his collarbone x-rays for 2019? A picture of the covid virus and his dead relatives for 2020?
What I am saying is that the small details DON'T matter to my statement, to my goalposts. MY goalposts are they are generally similar and that they are competing for the same snaps and the same role. I'm just pointing out that while people were looking at, say, Funchess vs EQ vs Winfree... I think Funchess is a step up from EQ in his roster chances and stature in that he's competing with Lazard a notch up the ladder. You may see 1 spot for 3 players--EQ, Funchess, and Winfree. I see 2 spots for 4 players, adding Lazard to the mix.
And yes, I did differentiate between them, with one being more of a hole player and the other being more of a physical at the catch point player, but they are both both of those. It's like if one person is 65/35 in one direction and the other is 35/65 in the other direction. One is MORE of one thing, but they are both both things.
you nit pick others to death just as you have me for years, and are attempting to do now, to funny.
I see the avatar and just keep on scrolling.
Re: General Packer News 2021
Posted: 05 Aug 2021 13:13
by Pckfn23
Some inaccurate specifics were used to come to the general comparison. Thus, I don't believe they are as generally similar as you do. They wouldn't be competing for the same roster spot. If we are going to compare, I would say Lazard's game is more generally similar to Davante Adams than Devin Funchess. Funchess being something we haven't really had on this team in a while, that big body possession receiver that is just going to win contested/jump balls. MVS is your speed guy, but I am not yet convinced he is your every down #2. Cobb and Rodgers are obvious slot additions who are quick, agile, and shifty. I am separating those other receivers types, big bodied possession receivers and tacticians. So in that sense, then sure, generally, Lazard, Funchess, and Adams are similar!
Now, Funchess' uniqueness in that respect might give him a leg up, but I do not think that the staff is going to value that over everything else.
Some inaccurate specifics were used to come to the general comparison. Thus, I don't believe they are as generally similar as you do. They wouldn't be competing for the same roster spot. If we are going to compare, I would say Lazard's game is more generally similar to Davante Adams than Devin Funchess. Funchess being something we haven't really had on this team in a while, that big body possession receiver that is just going to win contested/jump balls. MVS is your speed guy, but I am not yet convinced he is your every down #2. Cobb and Rodgers are obvious slot additions who are quick, agile, and shifty. I am separating those other receivers types, big bodied possession receivers and tacticians. So in that sense, then sure, generally, Lazard, Funchess, and Adams are similar!
Now, Funchess' uniqueness in that respect might give him a leg up, but I do not think that the staff is going to value that over everything else.
Nah, see, we're way off here.
Adams' game is his release and separation skills. That's probably 80% of what makes him special. We don't have anyone else on the roster whose route running, quickness, and release make them easy separators. That's why we went out and got Amari and Cobb, honestly.
What we had as our go-to receiver type for a couple years was height/weight/speed prospects while sacrificing quickness and suddenness for size and smoothness. EQ was smooth not sudden. Lazard was smooth not sudden. Allison was smooth not sudden. Funchess is smooth not sudden.
When I see guys who can't naturally separate, I tend to group them. If you can't separate fast at the line, you need Something Else.
MVS has speed. EQ and Funchess have size and blocking. Now, you're right that Funchess has more physical play style and Lazard has a more mental grasp, but that minor nitpick between them is nothing to me. You can't have a fulltime starting WR in the league who can't separate unless they win the contested balls and find openings against zone coverage. That's what you have to do if your release and separation struggle due to less-than-elite quickness
EQ loses out because he has good speed but not enough to make that a weapon itself. He can only get open on long developing routes, but also isn't a threat like MVS top stack you the second you hesitate.
These past few years have really taught me the appreciation for the separation guys. If you're not a separation guy, you have to have Rodgers' deep deep trust (or any QB's, though Rodgers seems to emphasize this a lot) to throw it to you in tight windows and to appear at the right spot at the right time so he can leave a football there waiting for you. That's why it takes a lot longer to develop and contribute when you aren't separating on your own.
Re: General Packer News 2021
Posted: 05 Aug 2021 13:40
by Yoop
just a great explanation Yoho
obviously a offense needs both styles of receivers, just that now with Matts schemes we lacked the Adams type of agile and quick type, so adding Cobb and Amari should elevate this passing game and offense even more.
this will be tough on a few WR's come cut down day.
