Packers Huddle

Yoop wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 12:59

go pak go wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 12:31

I find it interesting that the "Rodgers is acting ridiculous camp" is leaning more on the side of "screw it...get Rodgers what he wants and let's get this last dance team complete."

And the "Management screwed Rodgers camp and should concede to his every wish as the cost of drafting Love is like

..."this move makes no sense. We are already so deep at Linebacker"

wha? I bet that Mathews is still better then anyone not named Smith or Gary, and Mathews is the one that emailed someone about wanting to play again for us, Rodgers and Cobb simply agreed they'd like him back.

you really hate that the FO caved in that Rodgers should have a voice in some personal decisions don't you?

You really don't read. Like ever. Don't you.

BF004 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 12:14

I’d sign Gilbert Brown if it were me

What's Raji up to? Staying in shape? Do it, bring them all back. I want a team with an average age of 35. Lets blow this thing up right!

paco wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 13:04

BF004 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 12:14

I’d sign Gilbert Brown if it were me

What's Raji up to? Staying in shape? Do it, bring them all back. I want a team with an average age of 35. Lets blow this thing up right!

Some Lakers energy right there

Yoop wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 12:55

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 12:45

I just did, first off I just want to say that PFR is such a inconsistent reference sight, these people can't even add correctly
.

they have P. Smith marked 12 sacks. 11 hurries, 9 QBhts, for a total pressure count of 34, so where did these 2 extra pressures come from?

As you hover over pressures on Pro Football Reference you get this definition, "QB pressure (hurries + knockdowns + all sack plays (half and full for players, just full sacks for teams))." So in other words a .5 sack will count as a full pressure for a player. Preston Smith had 4 half sacks in 2019. THAT is where the 2 "extra" pressures comes from. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... elog/2019/

Clay Matthews didn't play for a team in 2020 after he was released by the Rams in March of 2020. There is probably a VERY good reason a 34 year old EDGE rusher/LB wasn't picked up for an entire year.

where is this 1/2 sack listed? do they also count it as a QBHT, see this is why I don't like this reference sight and never have, the joggle this stuff around so much that all it's good for is giving a close idea of reality.

A half sack should only count as ONE pressure. You should never be able to get more than 1 pressure from one play.

All it is doing is saying, "hey. a Half sack is actually more important than one QB Hit. So instead of giving the guy only half a pressure...let's give him 1 full pressure becuase a Sack or Half Sack = One Pressure.

The QB Hit/knocdown and QB Sacks are objective. Like you literally cannot have a difference of opinion there. If the QB's ass is on the ground and there is no penalty of "roughing the passer" that is a pressure. Period.

The subjectivity and differences come in on QB hurries. Like what is a hurry? How do you define a hurry? There is going to be a lot of differences on opinion there and that is where one statistician can have a lot more pressures because they are more liberal in how they define hurries.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 12:45

Clay Matthews didn't play for a team in 2020 after he was released by the Rams in March of 2020. There is probably a VERY good reason a 34 year old EDGE rusher/LB wasn't picked up for an entire year.

I think there is. There wasn't a lot of pomp and circumstance, but I think I have seen it reported that Matthews decided to sit the year out because of COVID. Your point remains for THIS Spring, but I think most just assumed retirement. Maybe this is a case where he thinks he has more left than evaluators do. Maybe its finances. But, if he can perform anywhere near his 2019 season with the Rams or even his last few years in GB as our #4 pass rusher, why the hell not?

Also, he is not taking the roster spot of someone with potential... sorry, but Galea and Garvin are as jaggy JAG's as you can get. I just don't see anything there that I would forego a bona fide EDGE player (with inside experience, as well). That #4 spot isn't some super deep bench spot. Those guys play. Ramsey got snaps last year. Garvin got snaps last year. They sucked. You need every bit of juice out of that guy because pass rushers were not made to play every snap... especially when they are doubling is IDL with our personnel.

Interesting.
Of our top 7 ST snaps players, I bet only 2 or 3 are back on the team this year. ST snaps are going to be in high demand; interested to see who supplies them.

I was targeting a lot of ST types late in the draft, and we didn't get many. Someone's gonna have to step up.

NCF wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 13:23

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 12:45

Clay Matthews didn't play for a team in 2020 after he was released by the Rams in March of 2020. There is probably a VERY good reason a 34 year old EDGE rusher/LB wasn't picked up for an entire year.

I think there is. There wasn't a lot of pomp and circumstance, but I think I have seen it reported that Matthews decided to sit the year out because of COVID. Your point remains for THIS Spring, but I think most just assumed retirement. Maybe this is a case where he thinks he has more left than evaluators do. Maybe its finances. But, if he can perform anywhere near his 2019 season with the Rams or even his last few years in GB as our #4 pass rusher, why the hell not?

Also, he is not taking the roster spot of someone with potential... sorry, but Galea and Garvin are as jaggy JAG's as you can get. I just don't see anything there that I would forego a bona fide EDGE player (with inside experience, as well). That #4 spot isn't some super deep bench spot. Those guys play. Ramsey got snaps last year. Garvin got snaps last year. They sucked. You need every bit of juice out of that guy because pass rushers were not made to play every snap... especially when they are doubling is IDL with our personnel.

Matthews did not sit out 2020 due to COVID: https://www.nfl.com/news/clay-matthews- ... aying-2020

Ramsey had 75 snaps. Garvin had 85 snaps. I am not really keen on signing Matthews for 160 snaps at almost $1.1 million. Sure, the money savings is only about $400,000, but I don't want him taking more snaps than that anyway. I would be fine with a JAG taking 160 snaps or less than 10 a game.

If Matthews wants more than Vet Minimum, I don't want him.
If Matthews wants more than 160 snaps on the year, I don't want him.
If Matthews did make a team last year because his talents have fallen off, I don't want him.

In short, there are a lot of reasons why I wouldn't want him.

go pak go wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 13:07

Yoop wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 12:55

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 12:45

As you hover over pressures on Pro Football Reference you get this definition, "QB pressure (hurries + knockdowns + all sack plays (half and full for players, just full sacks for teams))." So in other words a .5 sack will count as a full pressure for a player. Preston Smith had 4 half sacks in 2019. THAT is where the 2 "extra" pressures comes from. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... elog/2019/

Clay Matthews didn't play for a team in 2020 after he was released by the Rams in March of 2020. There is probably a VERY good reason a 34 year old EDGE rusher/LB wasn't picked up for an entire year.

where is this 1/2 sack listed? do they also count it as a QBHT, see this is why I don't like this reference sight and never have, the joggle this stuff around so much that all it's good for is giving a close idea of reality.

A half sack should only count as ONE pressure. You should never be able to get more than 1 pressure from one play.

All it is doing is saying, "hey. a Half sack is actually more important than one QB Hit. So instead of giving the guy only half a pressure...let's give him 1 full pressure becuase a Sack or Half Sack = One Pressure.

The QB Hit/knocdown and QB Sacks are objective. Like you literally cannot have a difference of opinion there. If the QB's ass is on the ground and there is no penalty of "roughing the passer" that is a pressure. Period.

The subjectivity and differences come in on QB hurries. Like what is a hurry? How do you define a hurry? There is going to be a lot of differences on opinion there and that is where one statistician can have a lot more pressures because they are more liberal in how they define hurries.

duh, thanks for that in depth analysis, a Hurry is any time a QB has to reset, move, or in any way avoid a hit, and PFF has been keeping these stats for 14 years longer then PFR, I'll stick with PFF when and if I can get there stats.

so then if a player gets a half sack, he only gets it recorded as a hurry, does he also get a QBHT too, almost nothing PFR does concerning this makes sense, nothing, PFF records everything separately, or use to (can't say now sense I don't pay for it) so sacks are recorded in halfs, such as 10.5 sacks, or 11.5 sacks, hits are recorded separately, and knockdowns to and then all 3 are added to equal total pressures, real simple, plus there checked and gone over by several staff members.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 13:46

Interesting.

Of our top 7 ST snaps players, I bet only 2 or 3 are back on the team this year. ST snaps are going to be in high demand; interested to see who supplies them.

I was targeting a lot of ST types late in the draft, and we didn't get many. Someone's gonna have to step up.

It was really good news that McDuffie started practicing. I think gunners is a big problem for us. We don't have a WR fast enough to be one. It may result where we need a guy like Erik Stokes to be one.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 13:46

Interesting.

image.png

Of our top 7 ST snaps players, I bet only 2 or 3 are back on the team this year. ST snaps are going to be in high demand; interested to see who supplies them.

I was targeting a lot of ST types late in the draft, and we didn't get many. Someone's gonna have to step up.

Here is 2019, for what it's worth. Lot of those guys still on the team 2 years later.

Yoop wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 13:58

go pak go wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 13:07

Yoop wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 12:55

where is this 1/2 sack listed? do they also count it as a QBHT, see this is why I don't like this reference sight and never have, the joggle this stuff around so much that all it's good for is giving a close idea of reality.

A half sack should only count as ONE pressure. You should never be able to get more than 1 pressure from one play.

All it is doing is saying, "hey. a Half sack is actually more important than one QB Hit. So instead of giving the guy only half a pressure...let's give him 1 full pressure becuase a Sack or Half Sack = One Pressure.

The QB Hit/knocdown and QB Sacks are objective. Like you literally cannot have a difference of opinion there. If the QB's ass is on the ground and there is no penalty of "roughing the passer" that is a pressure. Period.

The subjectivity and differences come in on QB hurries. Like what is a hurry? How do you define a hurry? There is going to be a lot of differences on opinion there and that is where one statistician can have a lot more pressures because they are more liberal in how they define hurries.

duh, thanks for that in depth analysis, a Hurry is any time a QB has to reset, move, or in any way avoid a hit, and PFF has been keeping these stats for 14 years longer then PFR, I'll stick with PFF when and if I can get there stats.

so then if a player gets a half sack, he only gets it recorded as a hurry, does he also get a QBHT too, almost nothing PFR does concerning this makes sense, nothing, PFF records everything separately, or use to (can't say now sense I don't pay for it) so sacks are recorded in halfs, such as 10.5 sacks, or 11.5 sacks, hits are recorded separately, and knockdowns to and then all 3 are added to equal total pressures, real simple, plus there checked and gone over by several staff members.

If you are going to respond that way in a sarcastic matter, then at least give me the courtesey of reading my post.

1 half sack = 0 hurries. 0 QB hits. 0.5 Sack. 1 Pressure

go pak go wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 14:00

It was really good news that McDuffie started practicing. I think gunners is a big problem for us. We don't have a WR fast enough to be one. It may result where we need a guy like Erik Stokes to be one.

I've been wondering about Stokes' potential as a gunner, honestly, while he's still developing as a CB and not yet being a starter.

Yoop wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 13:58

so then if a player gets a half sack, he only gets it recorded as a hurry, does he also get a QBHT too, almost nothing PFR does concerning this makes sense, nothing, PFF records everything separately, or use to (can't say now sense I don't pay for it) so sacks are recorded in halfs, such as 10.5 sacks, or 11.5 sacks, hits are recorded separately, and knockdowns to and then all 3 are added to equal total pressures, real simple, plus there checked and gone over by several staff members.

No, a half a sack is half a sack. It counts as 1 pressure. It is not recorded as a Hurry at all. Pro football Reference defines a hurry as:

Hurried: Times QBs were hurried - defined as a situation when the QB is forced to throw the ball earlier than intended or is chased around/out of the pocket as the result of defensive pressure

A QB Knockdown is when the QB hits the ground AFTER the throw. So, a sack would not constitute a knockdown as the QB still has the ball.

Pro Football Reference makes perfect sense if one is willing understand it. They also record everything separately. Pressures are Hurries, Knockdowns, and Sacks, which are all recorded separately. What you are describing from PFF is exactly what PFR does as well.

go pak go wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 14:03

Yoop wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 13:58

go pak go wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 13:07

A half sack should only count as ONE pressure. You should never be able to get more than 1 pressure from one play.

All it is doing is saying, "hey. a Half sack is actually more important than one QB Hit. So instead of giving the guy only half a pressure...let's give him 1 full pressure becuase a Sack or Half Sack = One Pressure.

The QB Hit/knocdown and QB Sacks are objective. Like you literally cannot have a difference of opinion there. If the QB's ass is on the ground and there is no penalty of "roughing the passer" that is a pressure. Period.

The subjectivity and differences come in on QB hurries. Like what is a hurry? How do you define a hurry? There is going to be a lot of differences on opinion there and that is where one statistician can have a lot more pressures because they are more liberal in how they define hurries.

duh, thanks for that in depth analysis, a Hurry is any time a QB has to reset, move, or in any way avoid a hit, and PFF has been keeping these stats for 14 years longer then PFR, I'll stick with PFF when and if I can get there stats.

so then if a player gets a half sack, he only gets it recorded as a hurry, does he also get a QBHT too, almost nothing PFR does concerning this makes sense, nothing, PFF records everything separately, or use to (can't say now sense I don't pay for it) so sacks are recorded in halfs, such as 10.5 sacks, or 11.5 sacks, hits are recorded separately, and knockdowns to and then all 3 are added to equal total pressures, real simple, plus there checked and gone over by several staff members.

If you are going to respond that way in a sarcastic matter, then at least give me the courtesey of reading my post.

1 half sack = 0 hurries. 0 QB hits. 0.5 Sack. 1 Pressure

my point is if your getting credit for a half sack then obviously it totals 1 pressure, sacks, hits and knock downs = total pressures, they tabulate this stuff differently then PFF, if your already getting credit for a half sack, that is obviously a hurry, as well and also a hit, so simply add the 3 up and thats your total, PFR is also rewarding that half sack with another hurry, so complicated only a person like yourself would like it.

I understood what you where getting at. and they can adjust this stuff just as you claim PFF does, when they award these half sacks.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 14:02

Here is 2019, for what it's worth. Lot of those guys still on the team 2 years later.

So I think either Burks or Summers makes the roster (Summers most likely)

I think Redmond and Scott MIGHT both make the roster, but they are in some direct competition for defensive snaps.

Sullivan and Jackson both dropped down the ST snaps when their roles (mostly Sullivan's) increased on D. Not sure if Jackson makes it anyway, nor if we would even want him back on STs (was he good at it?) Hollman is basically a dead man walking.

Malik Taylor basically took Lazard's ST snaps (plus a low-quality returner option) and seems highly highly unlikely to be back; haven't heard a peep about him with all the WR additions. And again, not sure we want Lazard back in those roles, though I bet he's a decent addition to return units as a blocker.

Fackrell is gone. Vitale is gone. Ramsey is out for the year.

We could have a LOT of openings in the core 4 ST groupings

Yoop wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 14:18

my point is if your getting credit for a half sack then obviously it totals 1 pressure

Yes, and it does on Pro Football Reference as well.

sacks, hits and knock downs = total pressures, they tabulate this stuff differently then PFF,

No, PFF is more liberal with counting hurries. That's really the only different

if your already getting credit for a half sack, that is obviously a hurry, as well and also a hit, so simply add the 3 up and thats your total,

That's not how PFF does it. Why would a half sack count as 2.5 pressures? It's only 1 play... How can a defender pressure a QB 2.5 times in a single play?

PFR is also rewarding that half sack with another hurry, so complicated only a person like yourself would like it.

No, That is not the case. A sack or .5 sack is not counted as a hurry.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 14:27

Yoop wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 14:18

my point is if your getting credit for a half sack then obviously it totals 1 pressure

Yes, and it does on Pro Football Reference as well.

sacks, hits and knock downs = total pressures, they tabulate this stuff differently then PFF,

No, PFF is more liberal with counting hurries. That's really the only different

if your already getting credit for a half sack, that is obviously a hurry, as well and also a hit, so simply add the 3 up and thats your total,

That's not how PFF does it. Why would a half sack count as 2.5 pressures? It's only 1 play... How can a defender pressure a QB 2.5 times in a single play?

PFR is also rewarding that half sack with another hurry, so complicated only a person like yourself would like it.

No, That is not the case. A sack or .5 sack is not counted as a hurry.

a sack is also a hurry, a hit is also a hurry, a knockdown is also a hurry, so when you total the 3 thats the total amount of hurries, PFR twist this up, it's comp0licated and doesn't need to be.

[mention]Yoop[/mention]
A sack is not a hurry.
A hit/knockdown is not a hurry.
I think you are confusing Hurries and Pressures. Hurries are part of Pressures, but they are a stand alone stat.

Sacks (1 or .5), Knockdowns, and hurries are all part of pressures. This is not complicated at all and Pro Football Reference is not making it so.

Let's go back to Preston Smith in 2019 as an example.

10 Sacks
4 Half Sacks
11 Hurries
9 Knockdowns/Hits

Add that all up for 34 Pressures. http://pfref.com/pi/share/c0JsW Here are the definitions:
QB Pressure - (hurries + knockdowns + all sack plays (half and full for players, just full sacks for teams))
QB Hurries - QB threw the ball earlier than intended or chased out of the pocket
QB Knockdown - QB hits the ground after the throw

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 13:58

NCF wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 13:23

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 12:45

Clay Matthews didn't play for a team in 2020 after he was released by the Rams in March of 2020. There is probably a VERY good reason a 34 year old EDGE rusher/LB wasn't picked up for an entire year.

I think there is. There wasn't a lot of pomp and circumstance, but I think I have seen it reported that Matthews decided to sit the year out because of COVID. Your point remains for THIS Spring, but I think most just assumed retirement. Maybe this is a case where he thinks he has more left than evaluators do. Maybe its finances. But, if he can perform anywhere near his 2019 season with the Rams or even his last few years in GB as our #4 pass rusher, why the hell not?

Also, he is not taking the roster spot of someone with potential... sorry, but Galea and Garvin are as jaggy JAG's as you can get. I just don't see anything there that I would forego a bona fide EDGE player (with inside experience, as well). That #4 spot isn't some super deep bench spot. Those guys play. Ramsey got snaps last year. Garvin got snaps last year. They sucked. You need every bit of juice out of that guy because pass rushers were not made to play every snap... especially when they are doubling is IDL with our personnel.

Matthews did not sit out 2020 due to COVID: https://www.nfl.com/news/clay-matthews- ... aying-2020

Ramsey had 75 snaps. Garvin had 85 snaps. I am not really keen on signing Matthews for 160 snaps at almost $1.1 million. Sure, the money savings is only about $400,000, but I don't want him taking more snaps than that anyway. I would be fine with a JAG taking 160 snaps or less than 10 a game.

If Matthews wants more than Vet Minimum, I don't want him.
If Matthews wants more than 160 snaps on the year, I don't want him.
If Matthews did make a team last year because his talents have fallen off, I don't want him.

In short, there are a lot of reasons why I wouldn't want him.

OK, I feel like that article does more to support my claims than refute them, but let me restate, to be clear, since you are a dear, dear friend.

Matthews did not sit out 2020 because he had zero opportunities, he sat out because he didn't have the right opportunity. Maybe it was money, maybe it was the depth chart, but, in my opinion, and, as surmised by Packers beat writers, given the uncertainty in the world, he decided he was better off staying at home in 2020. At was, at least, a partial consideration (as obvious as that may same).

The rest of your points, I don't necessarily disagree with. If 160 snaps, that's 160 snaps of an experienced pass rush versus essentially a give up (Garvin probably had 2 nice rushes on the year). We also complain, and rightfully so, about the number of snaps the pass rushers have to play, so I am more than happy to give up some of those reps in the mid-2nd quarter so long as they are from someone who can be productive. We have definitely seen scenarios, and in my opinion, somewhat avoidable scenarios, where Z/Preston were gassed in crunch time.

My position is, I want him if he is still at that 2019 level, will accept a low/minimum salary, and be OK with a very secondary/tertiary role.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Aug 2021 15:04

This is not complicated at all and Pro Football Reference is not making it so.

It's, at least, semi-complicated that you cannot add sacks, hurries, and knockdowns to get to total pressures, but yeah, you need the half-sack breakdown in order to get there.