Packers Huddle

Yoop wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 09:44

Ron Wolf was the architect that sprouted 5 more great GM's and brought in gobs of talent and possibly 5 HOFamers, again he said if he could do anything different, he would have brought in more receiver talent for Favre.

In Favre's case it's actually a legitimate criticism. In Rodgers's case, no.

All QBs have a few seasons where their WR group is lacking, it happens; roster building never goes exactly to plan.

I can't think of a QB that played as long as Rodgers and had to deal with fewer groups of bad WRs. 18 years as a pro and he had, like, what, two bad WR years? One was due to WR1 injury, not roster-building.

Every other year he either had a deep group of great talent -or- he had the best WR in all of football + a few guys who are not as good as the early 2010s, but nonetheless were really nice assortment of complementary pieces to having the best guy in the game (I actually prefer the latter to the former).

People kvetch about how TT's neglect of the defense in the early 2010s cost us some playoff runs. Well, maybe drafting WRs high for like five straight drafts had something to do with it.

your also claiming I'd complain to just complain, which is also a half truth, my main complaints for the last 8 years has been not having as potent a offense as I think we could/should have.

I'm sure your complaints are sincere. I just think they're unrealistic. You expect to have it both ways.

When we load up at WR, a few years later (2011-2013) it becomes, why did the GM neglect defense??
When we restock the defense, because we are trying to fix a serious problem, a few years later it becomes, why did the GM neglect our WRs??

This is the consistent flaw I see in the criticism of the GM, whether it's Gute or TT. Can't have it both ways.

Now and then you claim that WR trumps all else, which I disagree with, but could respect if you were committed to it. Yet you run away from that when it becomes inconvenient.

Labrev wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 09:27

What's silly to me about this whole conversation is that if a GM actually tried to do what you want, you would just blame the GM for neglecting other parts of the roster, failing to make the connection between those issues and your team-building philosophy.

You just described the era of Yoop continually harping about the ILB/MLB position for years on end, in thread after thread, which preceded his WR neglect pet topic.

This example also perfectly illustrates the point you're making: a high cap QB/whatever will have negative impact in fielding high end players throughout the rest of the roster.

APB wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 11:44

Labrev wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 09:27

What's silly to me about this whole conversation is that if a GM actually tried to do what you want, you would just blame the GM for neglecting other parts of the roster, failing to make the connection between those issues and your team-building philosophy.

You just described the era of Yoop continually harping about the ILB/MLB position for years on end, in thread after thread, which preceded his WR neglect pet topic.

Haha I missed that era somehow but that's incredible. After our young WR becomes a real strength, we should have a pool of which position yoop will harp on next. I'm going Offensive Line as my pick. :D

APB wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 11:44

Labrev wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 09:27

What's silly to me about this whole conversation is that if a GM actually tried to do what you want, you would just blame the GM for neglecting other parts of the roster, failing to make the connection between those issues and your team-building philosophy.

You just described the era of Yoop continually harping about the ILB/MLB position for years on end, in thread after thread, which preceded his WR neglect pet topic.

This example also perfectly illustrates the point you're making: a high cap QB/whatever will have negative impact in fielding high end players throughout the rest of the roster.

Wrong. The cap is fake. Haven't you heard?

Labrev wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 10:14

Yoop wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 09:44

Ron Wolf was the architect that sprouted 5 more great GM's and brought in gobs of talent and possibly 5 HOFamers, again he said if he could do anything different, he would have brought in more receiver talent for Favre.

In Favre's case it's actually a legitimate criticism. In Rodgers's case, no.

All QBs have a few seasons where their WR group is lacking, it happens; roster building never goes exactly to plan.

I can't think of a QB that played as long as Rodgers and had to deal with fewer groups of bad WRs. 18 years as a pro and he had, like, what, two bad WR years? One was due to WR1 injury, not roster-building.

Every other year he either had a deep group of great talent -or- he had the best WR in all of football + a few guys who are not as good as the early 2010s, but nonetheless were really nice assortment of complementary pieces to having the best guy in the game (I actually prefer the latter to the former).

People kvetch about how TT's neglect of the defense in the early 2010s cost us some playoff runs. Well, maybe drafting WRs high for like five straight drafts had something to do with it.

your also claiming I'd complain to just complain, which is also a half truth, my main complaints for the last 8 years has been not having as potent a offense as I think we could/should have.

I'm sure your complaints are sincere. I just think they're unrealistic. You expect to have it both ways.

When we load up at WR, a few years later (2011-2013) it becomes, why did the GM neglect defense??
When we restock the defense, because we are trying to fix a serious problem, a few years later it becomes, why did the GM neglect our WRs??

This is the consistent flaw I see in the criticism of the GM, whether it's Gute or TT. Can't have it both ways.

Now and then you claim that WR trumps all else, which I disagree with, but could respect if you were committed to it. Yet you run away from that when it becomes inconvenient.

bull, how often have I said ya can't build defense solely with the draft, we needed safety's, and ILB's so I thought we should get them, but ya don't have to use just the draft. Ted decided to go heavy with defensive drafts after he took Adams, almost exclusively defense, that is the sole reason we didn't continue to improve at WR, huge fail

we only took one receiver in that span, Cobb in 2011, Ted loaded that position prior

05 Murphy round 2 = career ending injury, Ted took the cue from Wolf, make sure to give the QB receivers to win with
06 Jennings round 2
07 Jones round 3
08 Nelson round 2
08 Finley round 3
only then did he use round two on another position, but it didn't stop him from going back to that round in 011 and 014 for Cobb and Adams.

thats how you make sure ya have a potent passing attack.

just look at the second rounders that followed instead of taking WR's
015 Rollins
016 spriggs
017 josh jones
018 Josh Jackson
019 Jenkins, the only stud in those 5 years.
to early to say on the last 3 years, they do look better.

again when people wonder why Rodgers couldn't win PO games, imo, that is the biggest reason why.

APB wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 11:44

Labrev wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 09:27

What's silly to me about this whole conversation is that if a GM actually tried to do what you want, you would just blame the GM for neglecting other parts of the roster, failing to make the connection between those issues and your team-building philosophy.

You just described the era of Yoop continually harping about the ILB/MLB position for years on end, in thread after thread, which preceded his WR neglect pet topic.

This example also perfectly illustrates the point you're making: a high cap QB/whatever will have negative impact in fielding high end players throughout the rest of the roster.

ya, asking for a position thats been in even worse neglect ILB or safety means I wanted them more then the garbage receivers that have rolled through 1265, we passed on some very good WR's in order to pick defense and most of the ones we picked couldn't even play well enough for a 2nd contract.

Acrobat wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 11:47

APB wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 11:44

Labrev wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 09:27

What's silly to me about this whole conversation is that if a GM actually tried to do what you want, you would just blame the GM for neglecting other parts of the roster, failing to make the connection between those issues and your team-building philosophy.

You just described the era of Yoop continually harping about the ILB/MLB position for years on end, in thread after thread, which preceded his WR neglect pet topic.

Haha I missed that era somehow but that's incredible. After our young WR becomes a real strength, we should have a pool of which position yoop will harp on next. I'm going Offensive Line as my pick. :D

I missed it too, but in that case (unlike his WR pet topic) he'd have actually had a point. Our ILB play was truly abysmal, way worse and definitely had much less invested into it than WR.

I also think the idea of "not taking the position seriously" is also actually true of ILB. For one thing, however insufficient you think WR was addressed, it was definitely given way more attention than LB. For two, strong WR play is way more ingrained into the org's culture, while strong LB play isn't. We won the SB in 2010 with average-at-best LBs, but several good WRs.

At WR, our plans just didn't work out. LB we flat-out really didn't care about the position much until very recently.

to me the shortcoming is just relying on D&D to build the roster in this era of UFA, Belichick won SB's because he mastered the UFA process by bringing in older vets who mostly just wanted to garner a ring, obviously that will stunt development with rookies specially mid round or later draft picks, obviously Billy B cared less about developing talent then he was with simply winning.

Winning, having a great QB is the formula for attracting ring seekers, but ya have to want them in the first place, and obviously they wont play for vet minimums, in both respects, we often heard of glitches, either low money, or there was another reason, we heard, to cold, outdoor stadium, small town, to me all excuses easily over come with a better contract offer, even trades, Ted was so concerned with getting a good deal ( looking good in the GM fraternity) he'd miss because of a low ball draft round offer, wandy moss comes to mind.

my point is there has to be a medium, obviously D&D is the foundation to build a great team, but in these times UFA and trades have to play a big part in it too.

sounds great to say we'd like to resign our own players, we know who they are, problem is we pay about what it would cost for others who are and actually where better.

it's a different league now versus the Ron Wolf years, even the Teddy T years, the roll over with players is such a money thing, sure we resigned Gary, we did it with Bakh, we did it with Jones, Rodgers many times, but thats a small amount, and do it every season is why where broke, I like the Belichick plan

Yoop wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 12:44

to me the shortcoming is just relying on D&D to build the roster in this era of UFA, Belichick won SB's because he mastered the UFA process by bringing in older vets who mostly just wanted to garner a ring, obviously that will stunt development with rookies specially mid round or later draft picks, obviously Billy B cared less about developing talent then he was with simply winning.

Winning, having a great QB is the formula for attracting ring seekers, but ya have to want them in the first place, and obviously they wont play for vet minimums, in both respects, we often heard of glitches, either low money, or there was another reason, we heard, to cold, outdoor stadium, small town, to me all excuses easily over come with a better contract offer, even trades, Ted was so concerned with getting a good deal ( looking good in the GM fraternity) he'd miss because of a low ball draft round offer, wandy moss comes to mind.

my point is there has to be a medium, obviously D&D is the foundation to build a great team, but in these times UFA and trades have to play a big part in it too.

sounds great to say we'd like to resign our own players, we know who they are, problem is we pay about what it would cost for others who are and actually where better.

it's a different league now versus the Ron Wolf years, even the Teddy T years, the roll over with players is such a money thing, sure we resigned Gary, we did it with Bakh, we did it with Jones, Rodgers many times, but thats a small amount, and do it every season is why where broke, I like the Belichick plan

The big thing some people tend to miss on the draft and develop vs sign free agents argument is that if you draft well and develop well, the big name free agent you sign just happens to already be on your roster. The reason for the uncharacteristic big FA splash in 2019 is that our 2015 draft class didn't pan out, so we didn't have any of our own guys that deserved big second contracts.

and the reason Belicheck won all the super bowls was that he had Tom Brady. Most years their receivers were dung, but they had the GOAT QB.

Yoop wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 11:59

we only took one receiver in that span, Cobb in 2011, Ted loaded that position prior

05 Murphy round 2 = career ending injury, Ted took the cue from Wolf, make sure to give the QB receivers to win with
06 Jennings round 2
07 Jones round 3
08 Nelson round 2
08 Finley round 3
only then did he use round two on another position, but it didn't stop him from going back to that round in 011 and 014 for Cobb and Adams.

thats how you make sure ya have a potent passing attack.

2005-2008 was Favre era. Our WR play in the preceding years was way worse than the more recent past that you complain about, so of course we drafted lots of guys at WR; it was a roster hole. They didn't do it out of some commitment to creating a Madden-style offense.

Finley was a TE, so at least that adds another starter, and one that brings something different from a WR.

Tbh, yes, I do think it became extravagant in '08 and '11 when we drafted Nelson and Cobb, and we paid a price for it later not only with our neglected defense catching up with us, but also cutting short the return on our investments in Jennings and (to a lesser extent) Jones because it made no sense to keep all of them around.

I'm not convinced Nelson and Cobb were so much more worth having than just keeping Jennings and Jones around longer (while having players at other positions in Nelson and Cobb's stead).

Sorry, but I honestly prefer our later years approach. I'd have liked to do more than we did, but it was way closer to reason than TT's early years approach. And in the end, it still gave us a "potent passing attack."

just look at the second rounders that followed instead of taking WR's
015 Rollins
016 spriggs
017 josh jones
018 Josh Jackson
019 Jenkins, the only stud in those 5 years.
to early to say on the last 3 years, they do look better.

yoop, this is a textbook example of cherry-picking. If you are going to list of the early-round busts on defense, then name the early-round hits, too, like Kenny Clark, Jaire Alexander, etc.

again when people wonder why Rodgers couldn't win PO games, imo, that is the biggest reason why.

What you fail to understand, in your obsession with WRs, is that good picks on defense help the team (and by extension, Rodgers,) too!

What good would a Round 1 receiver have done Rodgers in 2018 when our CBs would have let up more TDs? We were starting Ladarius Gunter.

By cherry-picking the busts and leaving out the hits, you are admitting that you don't actually want to change picks spent on defense like Jaire or Clark to a WR. You just want to change the bust picks. I mean, ... DUH! That's what every team is trying to do, regardless position.

And you say this like picking more WRs early would have solved the problem. That does not make sense. There is no more reason to believe that a pick spent on defense will be a bust than WR. For all you know, that may have led to picking bust WRs like Amari Rodgers over hits on defense like Kenny Clark.

So really your solution just boils down to "draft better." Again... DUH.

Madcity_matt wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 12:53

and the reason Belicheck won all the super bowls was that he had Tom Brady. Most years their receivers were dung, but they had the GOAT QB.

I never bought in that Brady was the reason, and he always had very good slot receivers and TE's, Rodgers did almost as good with Just Adams, if ya don't have a near unstoppable combination like that it doesn't matter how good the QB is, he'll struggle, plus Belichick is a very good defensive minded coach, his defenses trended top tier in the league.
during those years when we made do with jags at safety and lber, bill would have fixed that in 1 offseason.

Labrev wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 13:10

So really your solution just boils down to "draft better." Again... DUH.

no, when we lost Collins we should have went and bought a safety, didn't have to be a great safety, same with some other positions, they didn't need to be all pro, instead of the 3 or 4 we did draft that sucked.

your just looking for any thing thats sticks to refute that Cobb and Nelson where outstanding picks amongst a few other great WR drafts, in 2014 they where our best to the tune of 2500 yrds, put down the hash pipe

where never going to agree, all I know is give me Rodgers and that group pre 2015 draft, average RB's, defense and ST's and I'd put that team up against anyone

Yoop wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 13:24

Labrev wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 13:10

So really your solution just boils down to "draft better." Again... DUH.

no, when we lost Collins we should have went and bought a safety, didn't have to be a great safety, same with some other positions, they didn't need to be all pro, instead of the 3 or 4 we did draft that sucked.

your just looking for any thing thats sticks to refute that Cobb and Nelson where outstanding picks amongst a few other great WR drafts, in 2014 they where our best to the tune of 2500 yrds, put down the hash pipe

where never going to agree, all I know is give me Rodgers and that group pre 2015 draft, average RB's, defense and ST's and I'd put that team up against anyone

We definitely should have gone to the store and purchased a Safety. Haha just messing.

I mean, we can pretty play the should of, would of, could of with any team.

Labrev wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 13:10

What you fail to understand, in your obsession with WRs, is that good picks on defense help the team (and by extension, Rodgers,) too!

over rated though, do we need to have the best CB, or I should say most expensive CB in the league? wouldn't a bunch of Su Douglas caliber do? I think so, we could have 19 Sully for what we pay Alex

do we need a Gary? did we need a bakhtiari 3 years back? teams do just as well at those positions with less talented players, again, unless I'am looking to draft a QB I'am trading out of the top 10 every time, even top 20, blue chippers are great don't take me wrong, but we are pay Gary a kings ransom, I have my doubts he'll earn it, we'll see, I truly hope so.

just listen to Yoho, I think he thinks along my lines, however he is a pro D&D guy, mostly I think because he tutored under that when it was more vogue, Ron Wolf hated UFA simply because your best draft picks are so hard to retain, and all his work was leaving for a deal he couldn't match.

I think Guty is more open to use the market, at least he gave us that impression as soon as he took over with the Smiths and Amos, to me that is the only way to build a good defense, ya got to buy some of those pieces.

again obviously ya have to use D&D, save that for QB's and WR's lineman jmo

Acrobat wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 13:38

Yoop wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 13:24

Labrev wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 13:10

So really your solution just boils down to "draft better." Again... DUH.

no, when we lost Collins we should have went and bought a safety, didn't have to be a great safety, same with some other positions, they didn't need to be all pro, instead of the 3 or 4 we did draft that sucked.

your just looking for any thing thats sticks to refute that Cobb and Nelson where outstanding picks amongst a few other great WR drafts, in 2014 they where our best to the tune of 2500 yrds, put down the hash pipe

where never going to agree, all I know is give me Rodgers and that group pre 2015 draft, average RB's, defense and ST's and I'd put that team up against anyone

We definitely should have gone to the store and purchased a Safety. Haha just messing.

I mean, we can pretty play the should of, would of, could of with any team.

well People act Like Belichick is the only Coach or GM that can eval ol vets, I liked Haha in that draft, I also liked a half doz other players, but if memory serves there where a few UFA safety's available too

I agre we could shoulda/woulda all day, but not investing more at WR during that span sure didn't help us.

Yoop wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 13:48

Acrobat wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 13:38

Yoop wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 13:24

no, when we lost Collins we should have went and bought a safety, didn't have to be a great safety, same with some other positions, they didn't need to be all pro, instead of the 3 or 4 we did draft that sucked.

your just looking for any thing thats sticks to refute that Cobb and Nelson where outstanding picks amongst a few other great WR drafts, in 2014 they where our best to the tune of 2500 yrds, put down the hash pipe

where never going to agree, all I know is give me Rodgers and that group pre 2015 draft, average RB's, defense and ST's and I'd put that team up against anyone

We definitely should have gone to the store and purchased a Safety. Haha just messing.

I mean, we can pretty play the should of, would of, could of with any team.

well People act Like Belichick is the only Coach or GM that can eval ol vets, I liked Haha in that draft, I also liked a half doz other players, but if memory serves there where a few UFA safety's available too

I agre we could shoulda/woulda all day, but not investing more at WR during that span sure didn't help us.

I haven't seen anyone here act like Belichek is the only coach or GM that can evaluate vets.

Yeah in hindsight, drafting Nick Perry over Harrison Smith was an error. But the draft is such a crapshoot. We may have been so high on Perry that it made sense at the time.

Madcity_matt wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 12:53

and the reason Belicheck won all the super bowls was that he had Tom Brady. Most years their receivers were dung, but they had the GOAT QB.

Not true. These are the starting WR's and TE's each year of the NE dynasty. I would say that in almost all of those seasons they had at least 2 competent NFL starter caliber WR's/TE's. In some years, they even had all-time great level of talent.

2019
Julian Edelman
Josh Gordon
Matt LaCosse

2018
Julian Edelman
Josh Gordon
Rob Gronkowski

2017
Brandin Cooks
Chris Hogan
Rob Gronkowski

2016
Julian Edelman
Chris Hogan
Rob Gronkowski
Martellus Bennett

2015
Julian Edelman
Keshawn Martin
Rob Gronkowski
Michael Williams

2014
Julian Edelman
Brandon LaFell
Rob Gronkowski

2013
Julian Edelman
Aaron Dobson
Rob Gronkowski
Michael Hoomanahamui

2012
Wes Welker
Rob Gronkowski
Brandon Lloyd
Aaron Hernandez

2011
Deion Branch
Wes Welker
Aaron Hernandez
Rob Gronkowski

2010
Brandon Tate
Wes Welker
Alge Crumpler
Rob Gronkowski

2009
Julian Edelman
Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Benjamin Watson

2008
Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Benjamin Watson

2007
Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Benjamin Watson

2006
Troy Brown
Reche Caldwell
Benjamin Watson

2005
Deion Branch
David Givens
Christian Fauria
Benjamin Watson

2004
Deion Branch
David Givens
David Patten

2003
Deion Branch
Troy Brown
Christian Fauria
Daniel Graham

2002
Troy Brown
David Patten
Christian Fauria

2001
Troy Brown
David Patten
Rod Rutledge

2000
Troy Brown
Terry Glenn
Rod Rutledge

Acrobat wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 13:52

Yoop wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 13:48

Acrobat wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 13:38

We definitely should have gone to the store and purchased a Safety. Haha just messing.

I mean, we can pretty play the should of, would of, could of with any team.

well People act Like Belichick is the only Coach or GM that can eval ol vets, I liked Haha in that draft, I also liked a half doz other players, but if memory serves there where a few UFA safety's available too

I agre we could shoulda/woulda all day, but not investing more at WR during that span sure didn't help us.

I haven't seen anyone here act like Belichek is the only coach or GM that can evaluate vets.

Yeah in hindsight, drafting Nick Perry over Harrison Smith was an error. But the draft is such a crapshoot. We may have been so high on Perry that it made sense at the time.

we needed Edge, same when we took Datone Jones, or Neal or the other 2 or 3 high pick DL that never performed to draft slotting.

your right the draft is a gamble to find immediate help or even long term help if ya miss,, imo when that happens it can snowball, rather then just continue like that year after year just buy one, I know easier then it sounds, but that seemed a act of futility to me., Daniels and Clark where the only good ones.

Papa John wrote: ↑

22 Nov 2023 13:55

Not true. These are the starting WR's and TE's each year of the NE dynasty. I would say that in almost all of those seasons they had at least 2 competent NFL starter caliber WR's/TE's. In some years, they even had all-time great level of talent.

painful to look at that compared to our receiver talent some seasons