Rodgers Traded

[Drj820]

im pulling for the Jets and Rodgers to do well. If he wins a super bowl in New York people will see how much the Packers coaches and front office held him back.

[Yoop]

unless we have to face Rodge in the PO or the SB I hope he wins MVP again and Love wins it next year.

again I think we made winning to hard the last 7 years, I want to surround Love with skill position players, a loaded receiver core and solid ol protection.

Watson and Doubs last year should only be a appetizer, we need to add a couple more.

[YoHoChecko]

im pulling for the Jets and Rodgers to do well. If he wins a super bowl in New York people will see how much the Packers coaches and front office held him back.

Why do you want that to be the outcome? Because it validates your own opinion that the GB coaches and front office held him back?

Why would a Packers fan want an outcome that lends evidence to the idea that their own team is mismanaged

[Drj820]

im pulling for the Jets and Rodgers to do well. If he wins a super bowl in New York people will see how much the Packers coaches and front office held him back.

Why do you want that to be the outcome? Because it validates your own opinion that the GB coaches and front office held him back?

Why would a Packers fan want an outcome that lends evidence to the idea that their own team is mismanaged

1) I have long believed that for many years Rodgers covered many sins of the org and kept alot of people employed that would have been fired without him.

2) If untalented, incompetent people within the org are exposed, they can find new jobs and maybe people can be hired who can win a championship.

3) I like championships.

I would be pulling for this so that the Packers could be better off in the long term.

Also, although 12 was a pain in the a** on the way out the door...i like him and wish him well.

[Drj820]

im pulling for the Jets and Rodgers to do well. If he wins a super bowl in New York people will see how much the Packers coaches and front office held him back.

Why do you want that to be the outcome? Because it validates your own opinion that the GB coaches and front office held him back?

Why would a Packers fan want an outcome that lends evidence to the idea that their own team is mismanaged

question two is funny to me. If your team was mismanaged, would you prefer that remain hidden??? I would be happy it was exposed.

[Yoop]

if you only rank a QB by championships, specially when he was never the reason we didn't win more then have the QB's in the HOF wouldn't be there.

Starr needed 13 HOF players to win those championships, can you even contemplate the production Rodgers could have produced with there help?

I actually do blame Rodgers for the 2021 NFCCG loss. Threw the pick right before half that gave Kevin King an extra chance to screw up. Did not run the ball on 3rd and 8 when there was lots of green grass, instead forced the ball in the end zone and we ended up kicking a FG

You mean the pick that was clearly defensive holding and pass interference and Lazard got out muscles by a DB 3 inches shorter and 30 pounds lighter? That pick?

such poor ST's that the cord was fired one week after that loss, one viable WR and a RB that led the team in receptions, and people blame Rodgers because he forced a pass to Adams and Lazard was open, for a change.

no matter what, it's always Rodgers fault

[Madcity_matt]

im pulling for the Jets and Rodgers to do well. If he wins a super bowl in New York people will see how much the Packers coaches and front office held him back.

Why do you want that to be the outcome? Because it validates your own opinion that the GB coaches and front office held him back?

Why would a Packers fan want an outcome that lends evidence to the idea that their own team is mismanaged

Actually, to take it a step further, you would rather:
Your favorite team is mismanaged and you are right than
Your favorite team is in good hands and you are wrong

Not shocked that is your sentiment.

[YoHoChecko]

Why do you want that to be the outcome? Because it validates your own opinion that the GB coaches and front office held him back?

Why would a Packers fan want an outcome that lends evidence to the idea that their own team is mismanaged

1) I have long believed that for many years Rodgers covered many sins of the org and kept alot of people employed that would have been fired without him.

2) If untalented, incompetent people within the org are exposed, they can find new jobs and maybe people can be hired who can win a championship.

3) I like championships.

I would be pulling for this so that the Packers could be better off in the long term.

Also, although 12 was a pain in the a** on the way out the door...i like him and wish him well.

question two is funny to me. If your team was mismanaged, would you prefer that remain hidden??? I would be happy it was exposed.

So I guess what bugs me here is that you're starting with an assumed underlying truth, and looking for/rooting for evidence that you are correct.

Your view is "The team is mismanaged, and Rodgers leaving the org is a chance to prove that."

My view is "With Rodgers leaving the org, we have a good chance to evaluate Rodgers, Gutey, and MLF with some separation from each other for the first time."

I want to see where the outcome lands. My opinion is that the Jets will find out that Rodgers' immense talent and successful avoidance of turnovers has left him broadly beyond reproach in other areas of his game where he struggles, such as decision making on 3rd downs, taking what the defense gives him, and playing with WRs who don't have an intimate cranial connection with his own thought process. But I don't know that to be true.

On the Packers side, I genuinely have no idea how Love will play or how MLF's offense will look with a different QB prepped and prepared for under center. I'm interested in finding out.

But while those are questions and opinions of mine, I am HOPING/ROOTING for the best possible Packers outcomes, because I am a fan of the team. I would like it if Rodgers proves in New York that he has some flaws the national media has been overlooking that help explain why the Packers didn't win more championships, and I would like it if the Packers' head coach and GM succeed without Rodgers.

You would like it if Rodgers succeeded and the Packers failed in order to bring about changes that you would like to see happen. Your version is that you would prefer to be right about your evaluations than to see the team succeed immediately. You would prefer to see the org have to tear things down in order to rebuild it to take another shot at a GM/coach combination that can eventually bring you more championships. Because you'd rather have your opinions about the team confirmed than have the team actually be good as it is.

That's my issue. We both want the Packers to win championships. I think this season is a big year for evaluation to see where we are and I hope that we are much better off than the national media and some fans think. I hope so. And I want to see the Jets and Rodgers look fine because I like the players involved but I HOPE that they finish poorly enough to maximize the Packers' draft pick. Because I ROOT and HOPE for the best possible outcomes for the team I am a fan of.

You root for the best possible outcomes for a player you like and the opinions you hold dear. In the end, we both want the same thing: championships. And in the end, your opinion MAY be validated. Rodgers might crush it, the Packers might bomb, and the team we both root for may need to blow everything up and start over. But I would never HOPE for that outcome. I would ROOT for the team to be surprisingly competent and for the offense to look really coordinated and schematically sound with our new QB.

I acknowledge that the path to championships may be a long chaotic one or a short simple one. I ROOT for the short simple one. You root for the long chaotic one. Because it would mean, first and foremost, you've been right all along.

[Drj820]

Why do you want that to be the outcome? Because it validates your own opinion that the GB coaches and front office held him back?

Why would a Packers fan want an outcome that lends evidence to the idea that their own team is mismanaged

1) I have long believed that for many years Rodgers covered many sins of the org and kept alot of people employed that would have been fired without him.

2) If untalented, incompetent people within the org are exposed, they can find new jobs and maybe people can be hired who can win a championship.

3) I like championships.

I would be pulling for this so that the Packers could be better off in the long term.

Also, although 12 was a pain in the a** on the way out the door...i like him and wish him well.

question two is funny to me. If your team was mismanaged, would you prefer that remain hidden??? I would be happy it was exposed.

So I guess what bugs me here is that you're starting with an assumed underlying truth, and looking for/rooting for evidence that you are correct.

Your view is "The team is mismanaged, and Rodgers leaving the org is a chance to prove that."

My view is "With Rodgers leaving the org, we have a good chance to evaluate Rodgers, Gutey, and MLF with some separation from each other for the first time."

I want to see where the outcome lands. My opinion is that the Jets will find out that Rodgers' immense talent and successful avoidance of turnovers has left him broadly beyond reproach in other areas of his game where he struggles, such as decision making on 3rd downs, taking what the defense gives him, and playing with WRs who don't have an intimate cranial connection with his own thought process. But I don't know that to be true.

On the Packers side, I genuinely have no idea how Love will play or how MLF's offense will look with a different QB prepped and prepared for under center. I'm interested in finding out.

But while those are questions and opinions of mine, I am HOPING/ROOTING for the best possible Packers outcomes, because I am a fan of the team. I would like it if Rodgers proves in New York that he has some flaws the national media has been overlooking that help explain why the Packers didn't win more championships, and I would like it if the Packers' head coach and GM succeed without Rodgers.

You would like it if Rodgers succeeded and the Packers failed in order to bring about changes that you would like to see happen. Your version is that you would prefer to be right about your evaluations than to see the team succeed immediately. You would prefer to see the org have to tear things down in order to rebuild it to take another shot at a GM/coach combination that can eventually bring you more championships. Because you'd rather have your opinions about the team confirmed than have the team actually be good as it is.

That's my issue. We both want the Packers to win championships. I think this season is a big year for evaluation to see where we are and I hope that we are much better off than the national media and some fans think. I hope so. And I want to see the Jets and Rodgers look fine because I like the players involved but I HOPE that they finish poorly enough to maximize the Packers' draft pick. Because I ROOT and HOPE for the best possible outcomes for the team I am a fan of.

You root for the best possible outcomes for a player you like and the opinions you hold dear. In the end, we both want the same thing: championships. And in the end, your opinion MAY be validated. Rodgers might crush it, the Packers might bomb, and the team we both root for may need to blow everything up and start over. But I would never HOPE for that outcome. I would ROOT for the team to be surprisingly competent and for the offense to look really coordinated and schematically sound with our new QB.

I acknowledge that the path to championships may be a long chaotic one or a short simple one. I ROOT for the short simple one. You root for the long chaotic one. Because it would mean, first and foremost, you've been right all along.

Whoa whoa. Thanks for the novel but I NEVER said I am pulling for the Packers to collapse or do bad. I simply said I am pulling for the Rodgers to do well and win, so the world will see he was capable all along.

[YoHoChecko]

Whoa whoa. Thanks for the novel but I NEVER said I am pulling for the Packers to collapse or do bad. I simply said I am pulling for the Rodgers to do well and win, so the world will see he was capable all along.

Oreally?

1) I have long believed that for many years Rodgers covered many sins of the org and kept alot of people employed that would have been fired without him.

2) If untalented, incompetent people within the org are exposed, they can find new jobs and maybe people can be hired who can win a championship.

3) I like championships.

I would be pulling for this so that the Packers could be better off in the long term.

Also, although 12 was a pain in the a** on the way out the door...i like him and wish him well.

Right here you say that you think Rodgers covered for the sins of the team, that you think the team has incompetent and untalented people that would be replaced, and that your rooting for Rodgers to expose that is specifically linked to making the Packers better in the long term, implicitly by replacing their current leadership.

So yes, you did say pretty clearly that you would like to see the team fire their coach and/or GM and replace them with new people who you think might do better. And we all know that coaches and GMs don't get fired when the team succeeds.

[Drj820]

Whoa whoa. Thanks for the novel but I NEVER said I am pulling for the Packers to collapse or do bad. I simply said I am pulling for the Rodgers to do well and win, so the world will see he was capable all along.

Oreally?

1) I have long believed that for many years Rodgers covered many sins of the org and kept alot of people employed that would have been fired without him.

2) If untalented, incompetent people within the org are exposed, they can find new jobs and maybe people can be hired who can win a championship.

3) I like championships.

I would be pulling for this so that the Packers could be better off in the long term.

Also, although 12 was a pain in the a** on the way out the door...i like him and wish him well.

Right here you say that you think Rodgers covered for the sins of the team, that you think the team has incompetent and untalented people that would be replaced, and that your rooting for Rodgers to expose that is specifically linked to making the Packers better in the long term, implicitly by replacing their current leadership.

So yes, you did say pretty clearly that you would like to see the team fire their coach and/or GM and replace them with new people who you think might do better. And we all know that coaches and GMs don't get fired when the team succeeds.

No.

For years there has been a debate on whether rodgers was a choker, or the team was holding him back with neglecting certain positions, having terrible special teams, drafting his backup instead of tee Higgins etc etc.

I simply stated I hope he has success in New York so he can be exonerated and it be clearly seen that the problem was the org.

[go pak go]

I think the most probable result is going to be the most frustrating result.

1. Rodgers is going to go to New York and have success because the Jets are good and Rodgers can still be good.

2. The Packers are going to have success in the long run because overall the Packers are a solid franchise with a lot of talent at a lot of positions.

I suspect this will be similar to the Favre situation where Favre was great in New York (before the injury) and in Minnesota and low and behold the terrible and stupid Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy also knew what they were doing...but not obvious dynasty level.

People are in love with absolutes. Our country is in absolutist culture. I don't think we are going to get that here. I expect the Packers to have 2 1sts next year and both being in that 18 to 25 range.

[Labrev]

How Rodgers does with NY says nothing about our FO, logically, because it's not a 1:1 comparison. NY got to build up their team with high draft picks and way more cap room due to not having to pay an elite QB. We did not have those advantages.

It would have been more telling to see how NY looks after ~four years of paying Rodgers top dollar, no drop-off in play from him, and seeing if they could still compete as well as we did, better, or worse.

What we will see is how Rodgers does without the circumstances often used to excuse him.

[YoHoChecko]

No.

For years there has been a debate on whether rodgers was a choker, or the team was holding him back with neglecting certain positions, having terrible special teams, drafting his backup instead of tee Higgins etc etc.

I simply stated I hope he has success in New York so he can be exonerated and it be clearly seen that the problem was the org.

Exonerate the player at the expense of the team. Settle the debate to prove you right. Expose the incompetent and untalented. Make the Packers better in the long run by proving that there was mismanagement with the current regime.

Yeah, I'm satisfied that you are clearly saying exactly what we can all clearly read. No need to belabor this.

[YoHoChecko]

Gutey is talking live now.

No comment on the facetime phone service news

[Labrev]

I think the most probable result is going to be the most frustrating result.

1. Rodgers is going to go to New York and have success because the Jets are good and Rodgers can still be good.

2. The Packers are going to have success in the long run because overall the Packers are a solid franchise with a lot of talent at a lot of positions.

I suspect this will be similar to the Favre situation where Favre was great in New York (before the injury) and in Minnesota and low and behold the terrible and stupid Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy also knew what they were doing...but not obvious dynasty level.

People are in love with absolutes. Our country is in absolutist culture. I don't think we are going to get that here. I expect the Packers to have 2 1sts next year and both being in that 18 to 25 range.

I was also reminded of the Favre debate. Lots of Favre loyalists were like "See?? Favre is playing better and winning more. TT is an idiot CONFIRMEDt!" Turns out, wasn't that simple.

[Drj820]

No.

For years there has been a debate on whether rodgers was a choker, or the team was holding him back with neglecting certain positions, having terrible special teams, drafting his backup instead of tee Higgins etc etc.

I simply stated I hope he has success in New York so he can be exonerated and it be clearly seen that the problem was the org.

Exonerate the player at the expense of the team. Settle the debate to prove you right. Expose the incompetent and untalented. Make the Packers better in the long run by proving that there was mismanagement with the current regime.

Yeah, I'm satisfied that you are clearly saying exactly what we can all clearly read. No need to belabor this.

I know you are nervous that rodgers is gonna look a lot better because for years you’ve defended the front office with every move and at every turn…but I hope the packers do well..I just additionally hope rodgers does well. Because for years I’ve said that people would hate to see the team without him…and I believe rodgers winning will declare him the winner in the debate of who was to blame. No reason to take your anxiety out on me.

[Drj820]

Rodgers heroics brought me a lot of happy Sundays that would not have been happy without his heroics.

Not gonna apologize for wishing him well in New York. If they play the packers, Il be pulling for the Packers.

[Yoop]

Rodgers heroics brought me a lot of happy Sundays that would not have been happy without his heroics.

Not gonna apologize for wishing him well in New York. If they play the packers, Il be pulling for the Packers.

I would think everyone would feel this way.

[YoHoChecko]

Rodgers heroics brought me a lot of happy Sundays that would not have been happy without his heroics.

Not gonna apologize for wishing him well in New York. If they play the packers, Il be pulling for the Packers.

No one has any issue with the well-wishing.

It's that second sentence in your original post that brought up this debate:

im pulling for the Jets and Rodgers to do well. If he wins a super bowl in New York people will see how much the Packers coaches and front office held him back.

But I want to move on from the semantic back and forth and talk about another, related statement. It may deserve a thread, as someone suggested, dedicated to the endless argument over the current management, but it's been something I've wanted to say for a while.

I know you are nervous that rodgers is gonna look a lot better because for years you’ve defended the front office with every move and at every turn…

Here lies an essay. Feel free to skip. This is almost entirely about me, and why I really like Gutenkunst.

There is a common sentiment among posters who dislike the current front offense and coaching regime, or posters who have chosen to defend Rodgers at the expense of others in the org, that there is some sort of collective on this site that blindly defends management at every turn in every instance.

First, I would say that's mostly untrue. Most of the people who defend the front office can list several times they have taken issue with their decisions. For my sake, I literally said earlier today in the Draft thread that Wyatt was on my "please don't draft" list last year and we took him. I have also said incredibly clearly, repeatedly, for two years that keeping Rodgers last year wa sa mistake, the contract he was given was a mistake, and letting Davante Adams leave was a mistake. So there isn't blind devotion.

But for myself, personally, I can show receipts that I like the moves this team makes and I like defending this front office is because they make moves I advocate for IN ADVANCE. I'm not retro-actively adjusting; I'm not evaluating in hindsight

For better and for worse, Gutey seems to see the job similarly to me, right from his first draft.

In 2018, Jaire Alexander was one of "my guys" in the pre-draft process. I compared him to Revis.

In 2019, I had compared Savage to Nick Collins pre-draft (this one counts as for worse). I liked Jenkins though was disappointed to have missed on Dalton Risner by a couple picks ). I made a list of head coaching candidates I wanted and MLF was near the top. I was the first person on the board to mention him, during the prior season, before MM was even fired, as a candidate that intrigued me because of his track record of getting the best play out of his QBs and Rodgers' need for a reboot.

In 2020, I made a post about the 5 players I most wanted the Packers to draft. It included JRJ and Josiah Deguara. I also was VERY high on AJ Dillon. I made many posts in the wake of the draft about how difficult it was to process a draft that got several individual players I liked, while taking them at values I did not like, and missing out on our biggest need, WR.

In 2021 I put 7th round pick Kylin Hill in every one of my mocks. I wrote about it. Every one. When we signed DeVondre Campbell, my first post about it was in all-caps "I HAVE WANTED THIS FOR YEARS."

In 2022 I desperately wanted Christian Watson. I also successfully nailed Zach Tom and Carpenter as Packers picks in the correct rounds.

I also advocated strongly for signing Sammy Watkins, which... oops.


This is not to brag. Some of those moves flopped, some didn't. The point is that I defend our current management because we SO OFTEN see eye-to-eye on the team's major issues and because they have overseen some remarkable, though limited, success. 5 years, 3 13-win seasons, multiple NFC Championship games.

I am not a rose-colored glasses homer. I am a person whose favorite team has a management team that broadly makes moves I would like them to make more often than not, and whose results have made for an excellent, fun, rooting experience on the field more often than not. We're a competitive team that is in almost every game, wins much more often than they lose and has been a legitimate championship contender (depending on how you define that) for 3 of the past 5 years.

I'm having a blast as a Packers fan. I like the moves the team makes BEFORE they make them, not some retro-fitting hindsight, and it's a really enjoyable time for me to root for the Packers.

The exception was last season. That was not fun. Nothing was clicking; everything seemed disjointed. The good players underperformed and the JAGs were exposed and the mood around the team was tense. EVEN THOUGH that was consistent with my thoughts that we held onto Rodgers a year too long and gave up on Davante too soon--even though there was a chance to feel vindicated by this outcome, I just felt miserable about the team. I would have so much rather have been wrong about whether or not Rodgers could succeed in an offense in transition; or whether or not the offense could transition quickly to young WRs without someone like Davante in the room to be a stable base.

Anyway, this is an essay not an internet post. But when it comes to me, at least, and my relationship with Gutey and the team, I am not blindly defending moves I would normally disagree with because I am a homer and a Packers fan. I am rooting for a guy who sees the football world similarly to me while also rooting for my team, and openly disagreeing when things don't go my way, while hoping to be wrong.

This year, I have put my stamp on two issues: No Dalton Kincaid and We Should Have Traded Bakh. One ship has sailed when we restructured his contract. One ship may sail this weekend; who knows. But I am rooting for Bakhtiari to be great this year and to stay healthy. And if we draft Kincaid I will root for him to become the next Cooper Kupp. But that doesn't mean I'll be "defending the org."

I would rather root for good outcomes than be right. But it is really special, as a fan, when those things align; when you have a GM who keeps doing things similarly to your thoughts and opinions so you get to root for the team and root to be right. And even more special when your rooting interests all work out. Christian Watson looks like That Dude. Jaire Alexander is the highest paid CB in the league. AJ Dillon is one of the best personalities on the team. JRJ was, indeed, the safest 6th round pick available (which is what I hailed him as). AND the Packers kept winning.

Obviously, we all wish we had a Super Bowl to show for this time period. Obviously, it would be easier to settle differences and debates had we won one (though I think the "Rodgers carried a weak franchise to the Lombardi" crowd would still exist.) But as it is, I have the great benefit of rooting for a perennially successful franchise with a leadership structure that sees football similarly to me and several individual players I love rooting for. If that makes me a homer or "defending the management at every turn," so be it. But it comes from a true alignment of opinions and ideas, not from some blind devotion.