Packers Huddle

Yeah, Winfree has performed better than Cobb in camp to my understanding. Cobb is a slot possession tool who I adore and whose job is safe because Rodgers trusts him and he's clutch.

But Winfree is playing with the starters routinely. He has made fewer big plays than Doubs, but also made far fewer discernable errors than Doubs. He is more consistent and more ready to play. And Watkins only came on of late.

Lazard, Watkins, and Winfree have been the three best-performing WRs in camp. Doubs has been the splashiest. That's the 3-4 "best" WRs on the team. That means most capable to play and contribute right now. I think Doubs and Watson will both be better players long-term, but right now it's a tie with Doubs and Watson hasn't played until today.

So judging by performance in preseason and training camp, to the best of my ability to follow the news through secondary sources, Winfree has easily been among the small group of consistent performers routinely playing with the 1s.

And I don't even think this a controvertial or egregious take. Like I read the tweets most days and usually Winfree is involved in moving the ball, catches passes from both Rodgers and Love in team and red zone periods, makes nice contested catches, gets some separation, etc.

He's the idea possession receiver. He doesn't have a clear weakness in his game besides health. He is fast enough, big enough, runs good enough routes, has good enough hands, has gotten comfortable enough within the offense, and makes contested catches. Rodgers has three times mentioned him positively by name/number--once in the minicamp, and twice in training camp. One of those mentions was in relation to Winfree showing he can be trusted by winning a contested deep ball o the first play of team periods of the day (maybe even day one). One was in regards to him being one of the two guys that gives Rodgers faith in the depth behind the 3 veterans he already knows and trusts; and the minicamp mention was about him being a "damned good player" in reference to the notion that the new guys are going to have to fight for their role because we have some good ones already here.

If that's not a guy in the top 4 of our WR room ON THE FIELD RIGHT NOW (don't ignore that caveat), I'm not sure what possibly could be.

I'm genuinely not trying to be extreme or controversial here. To put it as briefly as possible, here is what I am saying:

If you just showed up and watched camp and preseason every day for the Packers, and you knew and understood football well, but you had no knowledge of the Packers, their players, when they were drafted, and how old they are, Juwaan Winfree's performance on the field, with no other considerations about roster chances, would be right in the mix with behind the top 2 or 3 guys.

If you didn't know you were watching a guy who was drafted 4 years ago, didn't make the team, and stashed mostly on the PS for two years, you'd just think you were watching a regular, run-of-the-mill, NFL-caliber starting WR who was in the middle of this 8 or 9-man corps of guys.

That's it. And I think that following camp, such an assessment has been obvious, but I push and push because when I bring it up, it is treated as if it is outrageous at worst or controversial and exaggerated at best.

You are basing your feelings on Winfree off preseason games against 3rd and 4th stringers. Also more vanilla defenses.

I didn't see Winfree pop much at all when I attended the joint practices against the Saints starters. Also less vanilla defenses faced on those 2 days. Lazard, Sammy, Doubs and Cobb popped on those days. Those are players that are going to be on the grass this season.

Christian was out there making plays today and yesterday in his first team drills action. Another cat that has better chance for time on the grass than Winfree.

And AGAIN, you have Toure and Amari who are more valuable on STs than Winfree.

I like Winfree too, but he is not second coming of James Lofton as I said to someone else here.

PackerNation wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 15:23

You are basing your feelings on Winfree off preseason games against 3rd and 4th stringers. Also more vanilla defenses.

I didn't see Winfree pop at all when I attended the joint practices against the Saints starters. Also less vanilla defenses faced on those 2 days. Lazard, Sammy, Doubs and Cobb popped on those days. Those are players that are going to be on the grass this season.

Christian was out there making plays today and yesterday in his first team drills action. Another cat that has better chance for time on the grass than Winfree.

Then AGAIN, you have Toure who is more valuable on STs than Winfree.

I'm specifically not. Winfree is playing in the first quarter, but also in practices, he is playing frequently against our starting defenders. I am basing most of my evaluation of detailed practice reports, consistency, day-to-day reading, not an anecdotal one practice that was attended or a snippet of a game.

I'm not saying he's going to emerge as a #1. But he is playing against the same guys that Lazard and Cobb are, for the most part. Toure, meanwhile, stays on the preseason sidelines until the second half. He has been playing down below the whole gang. And I would again like to question where we have developed the notion that Toure is a ST standout. I can't find any trade of evidence other than he plays on the ST squads. So does Ty Summers.

I have specifically seen gunner and jammer reps mentioned for Gaines, Kiondre Thomas, Gafford (though negatively), and even occasional reps with Stokes and Rasul in there as jammers.

And don't worry, you don't need to convince me of anything about Watson. I've been riding that train for a LOONNNG time. I think he is likely to beast sooner rather than later. But missing 2/3 of training camp your rookie year with a high-demand offensive scheme and QB definitely slowed that development. It has been nice to see strong reports of his first team periods.

I think we're maybe putting a little too much emphasis on sizzle and pop and not enough emphasis on consistency when making some of these evaluations. It just feels like a lot of mental gymnastics takes place trying to explain WHY Winfree is playing with the starters, getting compliments from Rodgers, and making routine catches every day even though he isn't *actually* that good instead of just accepting at face value that this guy has been consistently doing his job and getting complimented for it.

It's kinda like Jake Hanson. Even if Tom or Newman or in a longshot Rhyan will likely ultimately beat him out, the consistent play as RG1 and C2 seems to indicate that the team has a role for him and he's likely going to be among the top 9 OL come cut-down day.

But with Winfree, we're thinking he's Ben Braden. Cole Van Lanen is Ben Braden. Honestly, if Winfree is just here to be a camp/PS guy, they're wasting way too many good Rodgers reps with him.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 15:34

PackerNation wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 15:23

You are basing your feelings on Winfree off preseason games against 3rd and 4th stringers. Also more vanilla defenses.

I didn't see Winfree pop at all when I attended the joint practices against the Saints starters. Also less vanilla defenses faced on those 2 days. Lazard, Sammy, Doubs and Cobb popped on those days. Those are players that are going to be on the grass this season.

Christian was out there making plays today and yesterday in his first team drills action. Another cat that has better chance for time on the grass than Winfree.

Then AGAIN, you have Toure who is more valuable on STs than Winfree.

I'm specifically not. Winfree is playing in the first quarter, but also in practices, he is playing frequently against our starting defenders. I am basing most of my evaluation of detailed practice reports, consistency, day-to-day reading, not an anecdotal one practice that was attended or a snippet of a game.

I'm not saying he's going to emerge as a #1. But he is playing against the same guys that Lazard and Cobb are, for the most part. Toure, meanwhile, stays on the preseason sidelines until the second half. He has been playing down below the whole gang. And I would again like to question where we have developed the notion that Toure is a ST standout. I can't find any trade of evidence other than he plays on the ST squads. So does Ty Summers.

I have specifically seen gunner and jammer reps mentioned for Gaines, Kiondre Thomas, Gafford (though negatively), and even occasional reps with Stokes and Rasul in there as jammers.

And don't worry, you don't need to convince me of anything about Watson. I've been riding that train for a LOONNNG time. I think he is likely to beast sooner rather than later. But missing 2/3 of training camp your rookie year with a high-demand offensive scheme and QB definitely slowed that development. It has been nice to see strong reports of his first team periods.

I think we're maybe putting a little too much emphasis on sizzle and pop and not enough emphasis on consistency when making some of these evaluations. It just feels like a lot of mental gymnastics takes place trying to explain WHY Winfree is playing with the starters, getting compliments from Rodgers, and making routine catches every day even though he isn't *actually* that good instead of just accepting at face value that this guy has been consistently doing his job and getting complimented for it.

It's kinda like Jake Hanson. Even if Tom or Newman or in a longshot Rhyan will likely ultimately beat him out, the consistent play as RG1 and C2 seems to indicate that the team has a role for him and he's likely going to be among the top 9 OL come cut-down day.

But with Winfree, we're thinking he's Ben Braden. Cole Van Lanen is Ben Braden. Honestly, if Winfree is just here to be a camp/PS guy, they're wasting way too many good Rodgers reps with him.

Dude, no offense, but you talk like you have never seen a live Packers practice in your life much less this year. That is fine, but you really shouldn't go down paths like this.

I think you just get off on trying to disagree with anything I say. You like to go back and forth and spew complete horse manure that has zero to do with what I am saying about the simple fact that Toure has a better chance to make the 53 than Winfree does, and yes, it is because of special teams. That is the bottom line here and ALL that matters.

Perhaps Gute will keep 8 and both Toure and Winfree will make the 53. I'd love that. I also will love when they both make the 69, which is even MORE likely to happen!

Winfree on the PS is not reason to jump off a cliff. He was there last season. He moved up to the active roster last year at times. Didn't get on the grass much at all.

Toure nor Winfree have much chance at all to get on the grass on offense this season.

You talk about things Aaron said: Aaron has said from the jump that his top 3 WRs, and the 3 he trusts, and is counting on the most, are Lazard, Sammy, and Cobbie. Doubs and Christian will have an opportunity to have impact as well.

You also have Aaron counting on Bobby, and talking about Jonesy and Dillon catching 50 balls a piece.

Winfree and Toure are after thoughts right now on offense. Toure will have impact on teams.

Facts matter more than just spewing some word salad that has nothing to do with the bottom line.

I'm literally spewing only facts, And don't take it personally, I've been telling everyone on this forum long before you popped back in that Winfree seems like an obvious guy to place on a roster.

You still have showed me no reason to think Toure is really strong on STs. Winfree plays teams as much as Toure does--they're next to each other on kick returns. The gunners and jammers have rotated liberally. Bisciatta hasn't mentioned Toure by name in any media setting.

But regardless of that, you mention that Rodgers listed three guys he trusts, and that those guys will be out there the most. I agree. But Cobb and Watkins are not the picture of health throughout their careers, and other guys are GOING to play.

Rodgers, in regards to trust, had this to say about Winfree last month:

I wouldn’t be surprised if 88 is over there and going, hey, I’m a pretty damn good football player, don’t forget about me. Because when he shows up and he’s healthy, he makes a lot of plays, he has the last couple of camps and dealt with an injury last year in camp. He definitely is going to put himself in a position to have an impact. It’s just a matter of him staying healthy and making plays.

When he’s in the first huddle and you see me throw a deep ball to him, it’s great for him. It’s the same message to you guys that it’s sending to him, that I trust you. As you guys know, that’s an important step that has to be taken in the process from quarterback to receiver.

He also said this about Doubs and Winfree:

I will say, between 88 and 87, there’s been a lot of positive things that makes you feel good about the depth we could have in that room.

This sounds like a fairly clear top-5 pecking order in the eyes of Rodgers in terms of "who is seeing the green."

Also, just today, Rodgers was talking about Watson and Doubs and specifically said Doubs will be held to a higher standard than other rookies because he will be asked to play--the implication there is that despite Watson's great approach and tools (which Rodgers praised), there is still a lot of development and consistency needed, which of course makes perfect sense. But I think Watson will be worked into the group slowly.


So what we have here are facts: in terms of camp and playing time, Winfree has been playing along with Rodgers and the 1s very frequently. Winfree and Doubs are in on many of the same plays, meaning they are facing the same defenses and playing with the same supporting cast as each other. Rodgers has singled out the three vets that he trusts to be the top 3 guys, and he has also singled out Winfree 3 times, Doubs a number of times, and once, grouped them together. In the preseason games while the 3 vets Rodgers identified don't play, Doubs and Winfree are the starters, not Toure, not Danny Davis, not Hyman, not a rotation of guys--it's Winfree and Doubs.

We also have the fact that Winfree plays on special teams regularly.

How is this a "word salad" and not a clear assessment of the WR pecking order, which has undoubtedtly placed Winfree within the top 5 players on the roster in terms of Rodgers' and playing time pecking order... AND why is it so egregious to suggest that despite Cobb being more savvy and knowledgeable and playing a slightly different role than these other guys, I think Winfree has made more contested catches and more intermediate-to-downfield plays than Cobb, while also maintaining a possession role.

Look, Cobb is my only active Packers jersey. I love him. Christian Watson was the guy I pounded the table for throughout the whole draft process. I have the highest hopes. But you want facts, and the facts are that right now, Winfree is clearly in the top 5 of our WR room when it comes to playing time and performance; and I believe that he's performing better than at least one of those guys based on my interpretation of the evidence.

Your evidence is nothing but belittling other posters and claiming Toure is beloved on special teams without showing me any reason to believe it.

One consideration is that there's no WR quota on STs.

I could see us going with one less WR if Bisaccia feels there's better STs talent on D side. This could very well be the case.

Who all had previous experience with Bisaccia? Nixon and Leavitt, I think, but were there others?

Winfree is a JAG. It’s very possible there is room for a JAG in our WR room. Also possible to cut a JAG to make room for someone else at another position. It won’t make or break the team either way.

salmar80 wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 17:18

Who all had previous experience with Bisaccia? Nixon and Leavitt, I think, but were there others?

Gafford and Rasul

Drj820 wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 17:34

Winfree is a JAG. It’s very possible there is room for a JAG in our WR room. Also possible to cut a JAG to make room for someone else at another position. It won’t make or break the team either way.

My assessment of Winfree’s range of outcomes puts the low end at Jarrett Boykin and the high end at James Jones.

Given the makeup of our roster, with three veterans playing their free agency years (so possibly gone soon) and three rookies playing (so unlikely ready now) having a developing player that spans from capable fill-in to savvy but unspectacular starter is an appreciated asset

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 18:01

Drj820 wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 17:34

Winfree is a JAG. It’s very possible there is room for a JAG in our WR room. Also possible to cut a JAG to make room for someone else at another position. It won’t make or break the team either way.

My assessment of Winfrey’s range of outcomes puts the low end at Jarrett Boykin and the high end at James Jones.

Given the makeup of our roster, worth three veterans playing their free agency years (so possibly gone soon) and three rookies playing (so unlikely ready now) having a developing player that tabbed from capable fill-in to savvy but unspectacular starter is an appreciated asset

Fair take but this is winfrees fourth year and he has 58 total yards to his name in NFL games. And that’s playing on a team that has had plenty of opportunities for someone else to emerge.

Capable fill in...I certainly give you that. That’s what a JAG is. Low end starter??...maybe if the WR room depth is abysmal, which is sort of is at the moment.

But where I strongly disagree is when you say his ceiling is James Jones. James Jones was a decent asset from day one in this league and already had over 1200 career yards going into his 4th season as a pro.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 18:01

Drj820 wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 17:34

Winfree is a JAG. It’s very possible there is room for a JAG in our WR room. Also possible to cut a JAG to make room for someone else at another position. It won’t make or break the team either way.

My assessment of Winfree’s range of outcomes puts the low end at Jarrett Boykin and the high end at James Jones.

Given the makeup of our roster, with three veterans playing their free agency years (so possibly gone soon) and three rookies playing (so unlikely ready now) having a developing player that spans from capable fill-in to savvy but unspectacular starter is an appreciated asset

What is Winfree’s status next year? ERFA or RFA? If it’s the latter, his spot is also fairly uncertain.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 17:34

Winfree is a JAG. It’s very possible there is room for a JAG in our WR room. Also possible to cut a JAG to make room for someone else at another position. It won’t make or break the team either way.

Winfree and Doubs have the same stats, cept Winfree did it with 3 less targeted throws, thats 3 less incompletions, Rodgers thinks having less incompletions is a good thing, Winfree offers to much to the passing game to not be rostered, and he sure as hell would have been rostered last year if not for the injury, Winfree offers more on offense then Toure, and he's as good on ST's

Yoop wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 18:10

Drj820 wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 17:34

Winfree is a JAG. It’s very possible there is room for a JAG in our WR room. Also possible to cut a JAG to make room for someone else at another position. It won’t make or break the team either way.

Winfree and Doubs have the same stats, cept Winfree did it with 3 less targeted throws, thats 3 less incompletions, Rodgers thinks having less incompletions is a good thing, Winfree offers to much to the passing game to not be rostered, and he sure as hell would have been rostered last year if not for the injury, Winfree offers more on offense then Toure, and he's as good on ST's

well thats why i have no problem if he makes the team. I just also have no problem if hes cut. hes a 4th year guy. I dont care what he does in preseason against backups.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 18:23

Yoop wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 18:10

Drj820 wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 17:34

Winfree is a JAG. It’s very possible there is room for a JAG in our WR room. Also possible to cut a JAG to make room for someone else at another position. It won’t make or break the team either way.

Winfree and Doubs have the same stats, cept Winfree did it with 3 less targeted throws, thats 3 less incompletions, Rodgers thinks having less incompletions is a good thing, Winfree offers to much to the passing game to not be rostered, and he sure as hell would have been rostered last year if not for the injury, Winfree offers more on offense then Toure, and he's as good on ST's

well thats why i have no problem if he makes the team. I just also have no problem if hes cut. hes a 4th year guy. I dont care what he does in preseason against backups.

you and I both know, it will be harder to make our roster at receiver this year then it was last year, could have been the same wherever Winfree was his first two seasons, so calling him a jag seems short sighted, he seemed like a roster lock last year till the injury, and right now he seems like our #4 or #5.

he was beating the best NO and Vegas defended him with.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 18:05

But where I strongly disagree is when you say his ceiling is James Jones. James Jones was a decent asset from day one in this league and already had over 1200 career yards going into his 4th season as a pro.

Timelines and ceilings are not always/necessarily related. Some guys just don't have it, so they are what they are.

Winfree is one of those guys who has flashed right from the beginning, but never put it together because of a variety of poorly-timed injuries and bouncing on and off the PS early in his career. Some guys have early opportunties whether they earn it or not. Others deserve opportunities but are never given the chance. There are a million different ways a story can go and a player can develop. All this talk about it being his 4th year just means nothing to me except that the coaches and teammates around him have all started mentioning how he's so much more confident and sure of himself now (when asked; no one is just t=randomly talking about it) and how it's made a difference.

I'm evaluating like a scout--looking for the traits and skillsets that can translate into success. I see a guy who has pretty good releases, finds separation, catches the ball when it's around him, is strong and willing both in catching through contact and in the blocking game. All the skills are there. He'll never be a burner. His quickness and release aren't elite. But he finds open space and catches the ball when you give him the chance.

That's what I see as "James Jones" about him. James Jones, Davante Adams, and Juwaan Winfree are all about 6'1", 210 pounds. They all ran their 40-yard dash in 4.5s (4.53 Winfree, 4.56 Adams, 4.59 Jones). Adams ALWAYS had the potential to have elite releases; his foot quickness off the line was insane. That, and his attitude and his dedication to improving his game, eventually set him apart.

Jones and Winfree, though, have a similar level of strength and success getting off the line. Winfree a bit less consistent. And because they get decent releases, Rodgers has an early read on how the route is going, and he trusts these guys to get to the point and make the catch. Jones' worst trait was separation. He either got wide open on a scheme or double move, or he was blanketed but made the catch anyway. That is what I see in Winfree. But a lesser version of that guy starts to lose its usefulness quickly. So if he reaches his CEILING, which few people ever do, we have James Jones on our hands. Less than that, he might be out of the league.

But right now, he's probably the 3rd or 4th most useful WR on the field for us, in terms of knowing the playbook, having Rodgers' trust, and reliability of being where he's supposed to be and catching the ball when it gets there.

Although I wasn’t excited about his play last year, Winfree has developed into a possible #3 wr. Unfortunately he is in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Packers just drafted a couple of promising WRs. They signed pro Watkins and seem to want to stick with Amari.

Also, why would the Packers draft 3 WRs if They thought Winfree was in their future?

That’s:
Lazard
Cobb
Watkins
Doubs
Watson
Amari

Winfree and Toure on the practice squad.

Seems pertinent. Juwann Winfree getting noticed by media folks.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2022/ ... s-wr-room/

Since Toure’s name keeps popping up:

PFF Grades

Bottom 5 offense

1. TE Tyler Davis: 25.2
2. TE Alize Mack: 39.9
3. G Sean Rhyan: 42.2
4. WR Samori Toure: 44.6
5. RB Dexter Williams: 46.5

APB wrote: ↑

22 Aug 2022 20:44

Seems pertinent. Juwann Winfree getting noticed by media folks.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2022/ ... s-wr-room/

Paul Bretl basically copied and pasted my posts. It's almost like I was saying factually true, openly observable things.

Interesting nugget:

In addition to standing out on offense, Winfree has also seen starting reps on special teams, specifically with each of the return units. For any back-end of the roster player, special teams contributions are a must.