Packers Huddle

Yoop wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 10:13

sure people said don't fix it, thats all I've said is we need to fix it and just look at all the post proclaiming I'am a idiot for wanting to do so, obviously opinions get taken out of context, I agree, I think most rational fans would like to see improvement and more consistency, however that hasn't been the case in this thread.

There is a difference between wanting improvement at all places (which all fans want) and sourcing all the Packers problems since 2015 on one position group and bring it up and smash it to death in literally every thread making it a preferred pet topic while overlooking and forgiving other areas on the team when they didn't hold their end of the bargain when the Packers needed it.

That's why it gets taken out of context.

From 2015 - 2018, all roads and problems were sourced to Ladarius Gunter
From 2018 - 2020, all roads and problems are now sourced to WR2

Yoop wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 10:13

that was my point from the beginning Yoho, we needed more impact on offense during during those years (016, 017 018 and 019) I even brought our WR group ranking compared to other teams of those years, that it was a projection for 2020 doesn't negate what it had been prior, and there was only minimal improvent with this group in 2020, over shadowed mostly with Adams and Tonyans breakout season.

sure people said don't fix it, thats all I've said is we need to fix it and just look at all the post proclaiming I'am a idiot for wanting to do so, obviously opinions get taken out of context, I agree, I think most rational fans would like to see improvement and more consistency, however that hasn't been the case in this thread.

What's difficult to understand is why you think the team got so much better from 2018 to 2019 and why you think Rodgers got so much better from 2019 to 2020, if the improvement around him was so "minimal."

Tonyan breaking out doesn't seem likely to explain the level of improvement in Rodgers' play. Obviously part of the improvement comes from Rodgers' growing comfort in the system, part from Tonyan... part from the improvement of the OL in pass protection despite lining up something like 11 different combinations in front of him. But part is that MVS and Lazard have grown into their roles. And the MLF scheme does do a lot more to get guys open without them winning one-on-one battles or creating their own separation than most schemes. So the importance of those traits is masked a bit.

But it was clear that improving the Tyler Ervin/Tavon Austin role would help this offense. Neither guy did much, and there was room to improve that. So drafting Amari Rodgers was good.

But if "no one wanted to improve" we wouldn't all have been studying the heck out of the WR draft classes the past two years, obsessing over differences between Reagor and Ayiuk or the size of slot receivers like Moore and Moore versus guys like Toney and Rodgers.

There are improvements to be had. But when you see a QB in his mid 30s go from ranking 17th-19th in nearly every category and then two years later ranking 1st or 2nd in nearly every category and winning the MVP, the obvious conclusion is that he did not improve alone; that his improved play comes at least in large part due to the improvements around him. It just seems nuts that there is a narrative out there that the current regime isn't doing enough to improve around him when they went from 7 wins to 6 wins to 13 wins to 13 wins. When they went from 1-2 Pro Bowl players annually to 6-7 annually. It's just patently absurd to make a case that the team is not improving around Rodgers or even that it's not improving enough. It's night and day. It's been a complete revamp. It's loaded with top-end talent.

go pak go wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 10:15

3. TJ Slayton looks like a MAN. In the same ballpark as looking at Bak or Kenny Clark.

It's wild. Every year I look for a behemoth. Guys that are 6'3" - 6'5" and at least 320, but often played heavier in college... with any hint of reports that say "surprising movement ability for his size" or some sort of freaky fast 40 for his size.

This is Slayton to a tee. How did I miss him? Why was I not obsessed with him pre-draft? How had I not even heard of him?

I blame myself, obviously; but I also blame the pre-draft media I chose to follow. This guy just wasn't on anyone's radar, and then you see McGinn's scouts' takes and they say he's right there with Shelvin as the best pure NTs available this year. I'm so happy to have this style of player on the team. Love the pick so much. I know DL are slow developers, so I'm not thinking our D is saved, but this guy will make our front 6 operate so much more cleanly once he gets up to speed enough to pass Lancaster.

We should remember that while Lancaster's ceiling was always limited, right from the start when he signed as an UDFA, there were rumblings that he was one of the most ready-to-play rookies out there from a technique and role standpoint. It might take Slayton a little bit longer. But whew, the versatility with our fronts now doubles when he's ready.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 10:25

But it was clear that improving the Tyler Ervin/Tavon Austin role would help this offense. Neither guy did much, and there was room to improve that. So drafting Amari Rodgers was good.

But if "no one wanted to improve" we wouldn't all have been studying the heck out of the WR draft classes the past two years, obsessing over differences between Reagor and Ayiuk or the size of slot receivers like Moore and Moore versus guys like Toney and Rodgers.

I am still convinced that AJ Dillon "who does nothing to improve our WR group" does a lot to improve our WR group by allowing Jones to play in that role, as well. I don't know how you could watch that Rams playoff game and not just be blown away by how much that pairing opened up our offense. I think we will see a lot more of that this year.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 10:25

Yoop wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 10:13

that was my point from the beginning Yoho, we needed more impact on offense during during those years (016, 017 018 and 019) I even brought our WR group ranking compared to other teams of those years, that it was a projection for 2020 doesn't negate what it had been prior, and there was only minimal improvent with this group in 2020, over shadowed mostly with Adams and Tonyans breakout season.

sure people said don't fix it, thats all I've said is we need to fix it and just look at all the post proclaiming I'am a idiot for wanting to do so, obviously opinions get taken out of context, I agree, I think most rational fans would like to see improvement and more consistency, however that hasn't been the case in this thread.

What's difficult to understand is why you think the team got so much better from 2018 to 2019 and why you think Rodgers got so much better from 2019 to 2020, if the improvement around him was so "minimal."

Tonyan breaking out doesn't seem likely to explain the level of improvement in Rodgers' play. Obviously part of the improvement comes from Rodgers' growing comfort in the system, part from Tonyan... part from the improvement of the OL in pass protection despite lining up something like 11 different combinations in front of him. But part is that MVS and Lazard have grown into their roles. And the MLF scheme does do a lot more to get guys open without them winning one-on-one battles or creating their own separation than most schemes. So the importance of those traits is masked a bit.

But it was clear that improving the Tyler Ervin/Tavon Austin role would help this offense. Neither guy did much, and there was room to improve that. So drafting Amari Rodgers was good.

But if "no one wanted to improve" we wouldn't all have been studying the heck out of the WR draft classes the past two years, obsessing over differences between Reagor and Ayiuk or the size of slot receivers like Moore and Moore versus guys like Toney and Rodgers.

There are improvements to be had. But when you see a QB in his mid 30s go from ranking 17th-19th in nearly every category and then two years later ranking 1st or 2nd in nearly every category and winning the MVP, the obvious conclusion is that he did not improve alone; that his improved play comes at least in large part due to the improvements around him. It just seems nuts that there is a narrative out there that the current regime isn't doing enough to improve around him when they went from 7 wins to 6 wins to 13 wins to 13 wins. When they went from 1-2 Pro Bowl players annually to 6-7 annually. It's just patently absurd to make a case that the team is not improving around Rodgers or even that it's not improving enough. It's night and day. It's been a complete revamp. It's loaded with top-end talent.

I agree with most everything you've just said, however didn't word it as well, I purposely gave credit for improvement kmostly to Matts new offense which helps, well, everyone, I simply said his offense would have been more potent with a better number two receiving target, thats it, that was basically my whole point

as to prior seasons it became obvious to me, you and every packers fan that we didn't have the receivers to make McCarthys antiquated pass schemes work, hense his firing, yet we hadn't drafted a quality prospect in many a moon.

that we finally brought in a replacement for Cobb imho is about 4 to 5 years late.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 10:31

go pak go wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 10:15

3. TJ Slayton looks like a MAN. In the same ballpark as looking at Bak or Kenny Clark.

It's wild. Every year I look for a behemoth. Guys that are 6'3" - 6'5" and at least 320, but often played heavier in college... with any hint of reports that say "surprising movement ability for his size" or some sort of freaky fast 40 for his size.

This is Slayton to a tee. How did I miss him? Why was I not obsessed with him pre-draft? How had I not even heard of him?

I blame myself, obviously; but I also blame the pre-draft media I chose to follow. This guy just wasn't on anyone's radar, and then you see McGinn's scouts' takes and they say he's right there with Shelvin as the best pure NTs available this year. I'm so happy to have this style of player on the team. Love the pick so much. I know DL are slow developers, so I'm not thinking our D is saved, but this guy will make our front 6 operate so much more cleanly once he gets up to speed enough to pass Lancaster.

We should remember that while Lancaster's ceiling was always limited, right from the start when he signed as an UDFA, there were rumblings that he was one of the most ready-to-play rookies out there from a technique and role standpoint. It might take Slayton a little bit longer. But whew, the versatility with our fronts now doubles when he's ready.

So much about big guys like Slayton is their "want to". I am glad he slimmed 30 pounds but Herman said he still had his hands on his knees a lot.

I am glad that Slayton made mention on how he cut the weight and that he is working with the Packers to get himself in the best shape for this summer. A lot of Slayton's success will be on him. Can he stay dedicated to a diet? Can he stay dedicated to working out?

My hope is he stays in GB all summer and just devotes his life to his craft. Because we have seen the Montravious's, Justin's etc. of the world have the talent but not the "want to"

Jerry Montgomery I feel has a new pet project. Keke and Slayton give our Dline a lot of hope for the future but we have had a lot of hope before.

I too am very excited about this pick.

The battle for the 3rd RB slot is going to be so fun to watch this summer between Patrick Taylor and Kylin Hill.

go pak go wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 10:44

The battle for the 3rd RB slot is going to be so fun to watch this summer between Patrick Taylor and Kylin Hill.

I kind of feel like both will still be around even if one ends up on the PS. My money is on Hill, though.

I have to say... in a lot of ways I am biased toward the current front office regime, but that bias has been earned by continuing to go after players I love.

I LOVED Jaire Alexander in the draft that year. He was My Guy; like when he was picked other forum users were like "Oh YoHo will be happy"

In 2019, I didn't love Gary it's true--was much more of a Brian Burns guy. But I loved Savage. I wanted Dalton Risner in round two badly, but when we took Jenkins I was like "oh yeah, he's good, too; many guys' top C on the board, so should be a fine guard," and he's been SO good I have to love the pick and am glad to be incorrect in my preference.

In 2020, the Packers famously (in my head) took 2 of the 5 guys I put on my most-desired list in Jon Runyan and Josiah Deguara; but I also LOVED AJ Dillon and figured he just wasn't a fit for us so didn't say much about him (until twenty minutes before the pick when I posited "What if we draft AJ Dillon?" because people were still reeling from the Love pick and I was imagining what could most aggravate fans. But anyway, I liked him a lot.

And then this year, we get us Amari Rodgers, hit the positions I like, got Slayton and Stokes who were not high on my radar but in retrospect I'm looking at them thinking "gosh these are exactly the type of guys I want for us"

So it just feels like I am in sync with what Gutey wants in a way that OF COURSE endears him to me. If your favorite team's GM keeps drafting your favorite pre-draft players and some of them like Jaire and Savage and Dillon really start to bear fruit, you're gonna like the guy.

NCF wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 10:47

go pak go wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 10:44

The battle for the 3rd RB slot is going to be so fun to watch this summer between Patrick Taylor and Kylin Hill.

I kind of feel like both will still be around even if one ends up on the PS. My money is on Hill, though.

Aree. I could see them keeping 4 based on the minicamp talk about Turner. I wouldn't let Hill hit waivers. I know he lasted until the 7th, but still... Don't wanna risk it. He's tailor-made for the Jamaal Williams role of pass protector/3rd down back when Jones needs a breather

go pak go wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 10:44

I am glad that Slayton made mention on how he cut the weight and that he is working with the Packers to get himself in the best shape for this summer. A lot of Slayton's success will be on him. Can he stay dedicated to a diet? Can he stay dedicated to working out?

That was wild, right? Like I dunno what UF was doing, but it sounds like the kid has no idea how to be healthy. He cut 30 pounds by skipping meals and the nutrition team in GB is going to have a lot to teach him, and you're right, it'll be on him to see how that goes.

But yeah, he's definitely not in ideal shape. That's ok. That's a starting point. He can still get in there on 3rd and short and move some people and block some lanes. The role from there will expand depending on how much he wants it.

Yoop wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 10:42

that we finally brought in a replacement for Cobb imho is about 4 to 5 years late.

Why I defend the front office is because this FO has done so much in such a short period of time that I can't help but be pleased with the results. The Packers just had a lot of things go wrong and/or made a lot of poor decisions from basically October 2015 - December 2017.

If we look at the WR room in May 2015, the Packers had the following:
1. resigned two All Pro's Nelson and Cobb to have them on the team for the next 4+ seasons.
2. Drafted Davante Adams to be the eventual Nelson replacement
3. Drafted Ty Montgomery for a RB/Slot role

The WR room was loaded with talent during the mid 2010's (both with expensive vets and rookie deals). It was TE that we needed to chase which we ended up filling with band-aids. I mean a LOT went wrong in that WR room from August 2015 - December 2017.

1. Nelson gets non-contact ACL tear.
2. Montgomery suffers season ending injury as rookie
3. Cobb gets banged up each year leading to eventual regression
4. Adams is thrust in a high end role too quickly

While all of this was happening, TT made some huge blunders at the TE spot by not bringing back Cook and taking a gamble with Bennett instead but even worse, TT swung and missed so hard on the secondary from 2015 - 2017 and also swung on missed on large contracts on the pass rushers that it just set the team so far back.

So when Gute came in, he had a lot to fix.

1. First he needed to fix the secondary because Jones, Randle and Rollins were complete busts and the Packers knew it. That is rare for 3 top end picks to be busts within two years and the Packers did it. Honestly that took a lot of talent to be that wrong on players. So Gute buys a FA Safety and uses 3 high end picks on Jaw, Jackson and Savage. Likely hoping 2 to 3 of the 4 selections work out.

2. Our pass rushers were done. We had to eat dead cap and move on. Gute buys two pass rushers and uses a high end pick on another with the likely thought that hopefully 2 of these 3 will hit.

Meanwhile as all of this was happening, the perimeter weapon switch from Nelson to Graham failed. Cobb was a shell of himself. Montgomery was always hurt, was a dick and never improved in his route running and MM didn't use him effectively. So you go into 2018 with all of this hope and literally all of them failed while you also had all the failures on the other side of the ball as well.

There was just so much to fix for Brian from March 2018 to May 2019. By and large Gute did a good enough job to fix as much as possible. The result is the defense turned into a low top 10 unit, still disappointing but definitely improved and the offense kept ascending. Now in '21 Gute gets his guy in Amari Rodgers to keep the train moving.

When I look at where the Packers were based on what Ted primarily left us and to where the Packers are now in basically 3 years....I just can't be that upset.

The real judgement though on Gute will be seeing how his high end picks turn out. Right now Jackson and Burks are big busts. Gary, Savage, Stokes, Love are really his keys to showing what he has got. If Gary and Savage are busts and don't take that next level this year...you will hear me start to complain. But until then it is too early because we just don't know yet. Up to this point, the results have been too good to say anything otherwise.

I didn't like spending slot 12 on a position we had just fixed, the team needed receiver help as well as DL, CB, OL etc

then to follow that up by picking a QB that in all likely hood would not see the field for his entire rookie contract really soured me, obviously soured Rodgers too, sure I don't have much to complain about with most of Guty's draft, no one does, outside of taking Love, course I doubt I'll ever get over that decision, and if this turns to crap, Guty will never get over it either.

Yoop wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 11:42

I didn't like spending slot 12 on a position we had just fixed, the team needed receiver help as well as DL, CB, OL etc

Oh we know. You make that very well known. Drafting for position is great when it works but ultimately I have come to the camp of just draft good players. I look at as draft misses are bad. Not draft positions because you basically have to reset the roster every 3 years anyway. Positions of strength can turn to need more depth so fast.

Even at this spot. We didn't know pass rush was fixed. We only knew we threw money at it. So taking Gary solved the "let's throw more resources at it in hopes some of them click and also Gary will be able to enter his prime right as either one of the Smiths will be inevitably let go." Which should be happening after this offseason.

It's literally the exact same strategy you wanted to do for WR when you say we haven't addressed the position from 2016 - 2020. It would have been like drafting a receiver in 2017 when we already had WRs on the roster.

What's more, this slot 12 was used on an OLB/interior rusher position which requires mulitple players at this position beyond the "starters". We are not talking about a LT who will play 100% of the snaps. We are talking a position like WR, CB, etc. that requires depth even when the starters are fully healthy.

Yoop wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 11:42

sure I don't have much to complain about with most of Guty's draft, no one does, outside of taking Love, course I doubt I'll ever get over that decision, and if this turns to crap, Guty will never get over it either.

But you do. You complain about it in every thread and every post you make. Especially when there is any ounce of relevance with AR12 because it is your best explanation as to why he doesn't have more than 1 ring. And again with Love, it's just too early.

Gute knows the bed he made. He knows if these drafts bust he is out. And if they all bust he should be out. But they haven't busted yet. We already know the 2018 draft result. Overall it is good enough to keep a job. We will next find out about the 2019 draft this year.

That's about all I can commit to right now.

Yoop wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 11:42

I didn't like spending slot 12 on a position we had just fixed, the team needed receiver help as well as DL, CB, OL etc

then to follow that up by picking a QB that in all likely hood would not see the field for his entire rookie contract really soured me, obviously soured Rodgers too, sure I don't have much to complain about with most of Guty's draft, no one does, outside of taking Love, course I doubt I'll ever get over that decision, and if this turns to crap, Guty will never get over it either.

I wanted Jeffery Simmons at 12. Considered by many as a top 5 talent until injuring his knee early in the draft process. Hes lived up to the hype for the Titans.

For the life of me this team is maddening. We will take Bustin Harrell when we are stacked at DT because he was thought of as a top 10 pick and discounted by injury but when we need a DT and we get a shot at a real DT prospect we take a position we just uber paid.

What a bunch of pepegas.

Yoop wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 11:42

I didn't like spending slot 12 on a position we had just fixed

I don't think you are as football-dense as this comment makes you seem...but I'm going to try and lay it out for you in the off chance that you could be illuminated

A 3-4 defense needs (4) OLBs to function and the ideal split is about 650 snaps for your starters and 350 for your 2nd team guys. And that only covers the OLB slots, you need more snaps because Z and Gary will play 3-tech in the pressure package, boosting the snaps for the non-Z, non-Gary OLBs. So when you say the position "was fixed" by adding the Smith Bros - you are demonstrably incorrect.Nobody can play 1000 snaps at OLB and there weren't others on the roster capable of filling that role

The other beauty of adding Gary is that you now have the perfect tutor for him in Z and Preston- helping Gary to become a productive vet even sooner
Another benefit of drafting Gary is that he might allow GB to move on from one of the Smiths...when their next deal comes due.

So what you see as a mistake is actually some top notch GM planning. Drafting Gary means:
The Packers can give the Smith's fewer snaps, making them more effective
The rookie accelerates his learning curve with veteran tutors
The rookie can learn both OLB and 3-tech techniques from Z
The rookie is under less pressure to produce immediately and has time to master the fundamentals
The staggering of the vet FA contracts with a cheaper understudy allows for cap flexibility

So you are completely off base in denigrating the Packers front office for making that pick - and your unhappiness is directly tied to being wrong about that decision to draft Gary. YOU painted a flawed picture and then ripped Gute for it - If YOU had a better understanding of long- term succession planning for an NFL roster - you'd be lauding the GM for pulling it off since it helps the Packers now and in the future.
.

Heading into year 3 and the Gary haters have a huge lead over the Gary defenders. Gary needs to have a special year to justify his draft position. Back of the first round guys Can offer minimal contributions for their first two years and then be steady contributors...number 12 overall picks needs to be a staple of the defense by year 3 in order to justify their draft position. We shall see.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 13:23

Heading into year 3 and the Gary haters have a huge lead over the Gary defenders. Gary needs to have a special year to justify his draft position. Back of the first round guys Can offer minimal contributions for their first two years and then be steady contributors...number 12 overall picks needs to be a staple of the defense by year 3 in order to justify their draft position. We shall see.

Hmm, that's an interesting take. I think everyone agrees that this is the year we need to see it, but many people are plenty impressed with what he's shown given the opportunity.

But moreso, on the draft philosophy, I sort of get that mentality, but I see it a little differently. I think picking higher in the draft gives you a better chance at finding someone with RARE gifts and ceiling. Like, you're just not going to find many 6'5" 275 pound guys who run a 4.58. In fact, there hasn't ever been one that big to run below a 4.6.

I think there is often a tradeoff between ceiling and safety. If you are a safe pick AND a high ceiling pick, you're an absolute gem and teams should scoop you up. I understand saying that a 12th overall pick needs to hit. But I also understand saying "we have a couple first round picks this year; let's swing for the fences with the rarest of athletes at a premiere position.

And if you look at the guys the Packers pick early, and if you listen to Andy Herman and Ben Fennell, there seems to be a thought that the Packers think that way--they use early picks, lately, on players with insanely rare athletic traits and gifts. Alexander ran a 4.38 while also being a complete player. Eric Stokes ran a 4.29 at 6'0"+. Gary we've covered. Savage is a safety with sub-4.4. speed. Love has immense arm talent and athletic ability.

While a lot is made about the character and the lunch pail type of Packer picks, the first rounders are almost exclusively athletic marvels who may take some time. I understand disagreeing with that approach, but I think it's worth pointing out that it does seem to be an intentional approach and it does seem like a valid alternative philosophy.

BSA wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 13:10

Yoop wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 11:42

I didn't like spending slot 12 on a position we had just fixed

I don't think you are as football-dense as this comment makes you seem...but I'm going to try and lay it out for you in the off chance that you could be illuminated

A 3-4 defense needs (4) OLBs to function and the ideal split is about 650 snaps for your starters and 350 for your 2nd team guys. And that only covers the OLB slots, you need more snaps because Z and Gary will play 3-tech in the pressure package, boosting the snaps for the non-Z, non-Gary OLBs. So when you say the position "was fixed" by adding the Smith Bros - you are demonstrably incorrect.Nobody can play 1000 snaps at OLB and there weren't others on the roster capable of filling that role

The other beauty of adding Gary is that you now have the perfect tutor for him in Z and Preston- helping Gary to become a productive vet even sooner
Another benefit of drafting Gary is that he might allow GB to move on from one of the Smiths...when their next deal comes due.

So what you see as a mistake is actually some top notch GM planning. Drafting Gary means:
The Packers can give the Smith's fewer snaps, making them more effective
The rookie accelerates his learning curve with veteran tutors
The rookie can learn both OLB and 3-tech techniques from Z
The rookie is under less pressure to produce immediately and has time to master the fundamentals
The staggering of the vet FA contracts with a cheaper understudy allows for cap flexibility

So you are completely off base in denigrating the Packers front office for making that pick - and your unhappiness is directly tied to being wrong about that decision to draft Gary. YOU painted a flawed picture and then ripped Gute for it - If YOU had a better understanding of long- term succession planning for an NFL roster - you'd be lauding the GM for pulling it off since it helps the Packers now and in the future.
.

spare me your condescending BS BSA, and since a team needs 4 olbs why didn't we need them years prior, Gary was a luxury pick, and from what we've learned was a targeted player even before Gute bought the Smiths, Jeff Simmons was sitting there and has produced far more then Gary has the last 2 season, and could have helped us against SF in the playoffs, instead Guty just as he did with Love drafted more for future then the now in essense wasting another season of Rodgers dwindling years.

and we have coaches we pay to teach Gary the tricks of his craft, we didn't bring in the Smiths to do that stuff, sure observing seasoned vets obviously helps, but as Favre said years ago, I'am not here to coach up my replacement, do you seriously think Z gives a hoot about tutoring Gary? not much

the smart pick, then as it would be now was to take Jeff Simmons.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

19 May 2021 13:32

But moreso, on the draft philosophy, I sort of get that mentality, but I see it a little differently. I think picking higher in the draft gives you a better chance at finding someone with RARE gifts and ceiling. Like, you're just not going to find many 6'5" 275 pound guys who run a 4.58. In fact, there hasn't ever been one that big to run below a 4.6.

good point and I'am pretty convinced Gary will be very good, but so is Simmons, and the thing is both may be so expensive we wouldn't be able to resign either one, so I'll take the player that is ready to play and I have a position that I can start him and get instant production, if ya have to wait till some time in his 3rd season, you basically lost his cheap years.