Packers Huddle

Drj820 wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 09:45

Yoop is hilarious to me and great fun. When I see topics i am not interested in, i dont engage in the convo. Its July on a football forum.

I would never want yoop to defend me in an official forum such as a courtroom (he being my attorney would probably raise my misdemeanor charge into a felony with multiple years of jail time because of disrupting the court)

But in an unoffical capacity, I don't know if I would want anyone else in my corner. He's a mama bear.

go pak go wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 09:43

Those who support and adore Rodgers to the ends of the earth and view him god-like status have a major reconciling item in front of them because Rodgers is not in the 2+ Ring club. This is inconceivable because Rodgers is a god and the greatest to ever and will ever live.

To explain this low production in rings, Rodger adoreres must point the finger at the organization because they supply Rodgers with a completely inferior team and the only reason the GM and head coach earned a living was on the back of Rodgers who "fell in the Packers lap"

I actually think the argument is based on an even lower foundation... whether or not a lack of multiple rings deserves an explanation at all. Whether or not you believe in a clear meritocracy in which the best are rewarded with success or a more random and unjust world in which chance plays an incredibly large role in outcomes. A while ago either [mention]Backthepack4ever[/mention] or [mention]Scott4Pack[/mention] (shoot, maybe it was [mention]Crazylegs Starks[/mention]) brought in a scholarly article on the role of luck in life outcomes and it's truly excellent. I leave it open in a tab on my personal laptop both as a reminder to re-read it later and as a reminder that there is randomness in life and we can't control everything. It helps me relax.

At this point, it's not even about football and Rodgers or HoF QBs more generally... it's about worldviews and outlooks on life; definitions of success and failure. That's why I like these conversations. They're July ramblings about Aaron Rodgers, but they're actually a complex web of nature and nurture expressing different ideas on societal values and human nature and even the nature of reality itself. But couched in those terms, it's kinda dull or overly "deep." So we stick to Rodgers and football. But hey, it's July--a great time to explore more than just football through football.

I had a thought the other day as Rodgers was at "The Match" and talking about mental health.

What if this entire thing has been a mental breakdown?

He knows the team has resigned Jones, tried to give him a defense, brought in a new coach, etc etc.

He knows last year was his best chance to win a ring with the Packers and the team squandered the opportunity. I mean lets face it, he knows the niners are going to be better, he knows the Rams got better, he knows the Bucs will be more cohesive than they were last year in year 2.

He put so much into last year and the loss was so devastatingly deflating that he had to lash out and run away for awhile.

There are painful examples of situations like this happening such as two people working toward a goal, they fail to achieve the goal for a while but they still have faith they will achieve it eventually. Then, as they age..they get super close but squander the opportunity in the end. After they squander the opportunity, there is still another chance to go for it again, but being so close and failing was just too devastating so they begin to blame each other, and one party just decides it would be best to try to achieve the goal with another partner while he still has a few more years to try.

Neither side was really to blame. Both sides tried, both sides failed..but after failure the finger pointing started.

Rodgers is in the "take my ball and go home" stage of this mental roller coaster. Losing the NFCCG and watching Brady win an easy game was harder on him than most recognized. He will be back.

But Brady broke him.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 09:54

go pak go wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 09:43

Those who support and adore Rodgers to the ends of the earth and view him god-like status have a major reconciling item in front of them because Rodgers is not in the 2+ Ring club. This is inconceivable because Rodgers is a god and the greatest to ever and will ever live.

To explain this low production in rings, Rodger adoreres must point the finger at the organization because they supply Rodgers with a completely inferior team and the only reason the GM and head coach earned a living was on the back of Rodgers who "fell in the Packers lap"

I actually think the argument is based on an even lower foundation... whether or not a lack of multiple rings deserves an explanation at all. Whether or not you believe in a clear meritocracy in which the best are rewarded with success or a more random and unjust world in which chance plays an incredibly large role in outcomes. A while ago either @Backthepack4ever or @Scott4Pack (shoot, maybe it was @Crazylegs Starks) brought in a scholarly article on the role of luck in life outcomes and it's truly excellent. I leave it open in a tab on my personal laptop both as a reminder to re-read it later and as a reminder that there is randomness in life and we can't control everything. It helps me relax.

At this point, it's not even about football and Rodgers or HoF QBs more generally... it's about worldviews and outlooks on life; definitions of success and failure. That's why I like these conversations. They're July ramblings about Aaron Rodgers, but they're actually a complex web of nature and nurture expressing different ideas on societal values and human nature and even the nature of reality itself. But couched in those terms, it's kinda dull or overly "deep." So we stick to Rodgers and football. But hey, it's July--a great time to explore more than just football through football.

Absolutely.

And this is honestly the real answer behind the argument. Both statements are true. The Rodgers adorers are absolutely correct that Aaron Rodgers is an unbelievable talent. Likely top 5 greatest quarterback to ever play the game. I think that is not an outlandish thing to say.

My side is also correct that the Packers have been an incredibly well run franchise since the Mike Sherman era. At least a top 5 franchise when looking at the hole of the work since that time.

Normally when you look at Great QB and Great Team and put them together for 12 years, you would expect multiple rings and championships. That is human nature to believe that.

This has not happened. In fact, I would argue the only year we won the title was one of our lower level rosters (I think the 2020, 2014, 2013, rosters were better) and this is primarily down to luck and haphazard chance.

There is also an obsession to "ranking" players, teams, people from best to worst whereas I prefer "lumping". It's why I say top 5 rather than best because when you step back, there is multiple images and example of success.

My ultimate definition of success...especially when it comes to football is "did I have fun"? I always hold the 2007, 2009, 2010, 2014, 2019 and 2020 seasons very close to my heart. Those seasons were just a blast. Pretty much all had incredible heart break (even the 2010 season did...I thought it was over after the Lions loss) but what rides they were.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 10:08

I had a thought the other day as Rodgers was at "The Match" and talking about mental health.

What if this entire thing has been a mental breakdown?

He knows the team has resigned Jones, tried to give him a defense, brought in a new coach, etc etc.

He knows last year was his best chance to win a ring with the Packers and the team squandered the opportunity. I mean lets face it, he knows the niners are going to be better, he knows the Rams got better, he knows the Bucs will be more cohesive than they were last year in year 2.

He put so much into last year and the loss was so devastatingly deflating that he had to lash out and run away for awhile.

There are painful examples of situations like this happening such as two people working toward a goal, they fail to achieve the goal for a while but they still have faith they will achieve it eventually. Then, as they age..they get super close but squander the opportunity in the end. After they squander the opportunity, there is still another chance to go for it again, but being so close and failing was just too devastating so they begin to blame each other, and one party just decides it would be best to try to achieve the goal with another partner while he still has a few more years to try.

Neither side was really to blame. Both sides tried, both sides failed..but after failure the finger pointing started.

Rodgers is in the "take my ball and go home" stage of this mental roller coaster. Losing the NFCCG and watching Brady win an easy game was harder on him than most recognized. He will be back.

But Brady broke him.

whoah. this was awesome.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 09:47

Gunzaan wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 09:43

No offense yoho- but that was just a long post that basically was one excuse after another.

And I don’t think the anti-yoop stuff is passive aggressive. He’s been called out specifically multiple times. I’ve had posts deleted saying to stop feeding the troll.

Just because you enjoy reading this insane crap doesn’t mean everyone does. I logged on yesterday to see what people thoughts were of NFL exec’s ranking Jaire Alexander the #6 CB overall - instead, the same 3 people are arguing about useless &%$@ - AGAIN - for the 90th day in a row.

Post the article yourself, then you'll see what people think about it. My ESPN+ for some reason isn't functioning right and I can't see all of these exec rankings. I'm incredibly frustrated by it, honestly. Each time I click the link, it shows me the "Get ESPN+" button and cuts off the article two paragraphs in. I click the button and it says "you're already a member" and logs me in. And then I STILL can't access the article. Same process, on repeat. I'm very interested in what the rankings are, but as I don't have the access, I haven't been able to post about it. But the ESPN exec rankings would be an excellent topic to start.

Take responsibility and make your own reality. If there's something you want to discuss and you don't see it discussed, post it and discuss it. It's a public forum. It requires public participation. If you see something missing, there's no better person than you to add it.

That wasn’t my point at all. That was just an example.

It’s all good though - I value the opinion of specific posters here because they form solid opinions over time based of analysis and facts. I’ll just wait until football starts to check up on those opinions - not the end of the world.

go pak go wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 10:12

Drj820 wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 10:08

I had a thought the other day as Rodgers was at "The Match" and talking about mental health.

What if this entire thing has been a mental breakdown?

He knows the team has resigned Jones, tried to give him a defense, brought in a new coach, etc etc.

He knows last year was his best chance to win a ring with the Packers and the team squandered the opportunity. I mean lets face it, he knows the niners are going to be better, he knows the Rams got better, he knows the Bucs will be more cohesive than they were last year in year 2.

He put so much into last year and the loss was so devastatingly deflating that he had to lash out and run away for awhile.

There are painful examples of situations like this happening such as two people working toward a goal, they fail to achieve the goal for a while but they still have faith they will achieve it eventually. Then, as they age..they get super close but squander the opportunity in the end. After they squander the opportunity, there is still another chance to go for it again, but being so close and failing was just too devastating so they begin to blame each other, and one party just decides it would be best to try to achieve the goal with another partner while he still has a few more years to try.

Neither side was really to blame. Both sides tried, both sides failed..but after failure the finger pointing started.

Rodgers is in the "take my ball and go home" stage of this mental roller coaster. Losing the NFCCG and watching Brady win an easy game was harder on him than most recognized. He will be back.

But Brady broke him.

whoah. this was awesome.

My mind wandered in that direction a bit, too. It reminded me of The Serenity Now.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 10:08

I had a thought the other day as Rodgers was at "The Match" and talking about mental health.

What if this entire thing has been a mental breakdown?

He knows the team has resigned Jones, tried to give him a defense, brought in a new coach, etc etc.

He knows last year was his best chance to win a ring with the Packers and the team squandered the opportunity. I mean lets face it, he knows the niners are going to be better, he knows the Rams got better, he knows the Bucs will be more cohesive than they were last year in year 2.

He put so much into last year and the loss was so devastatingly deflating that he had to lash out and run away for awhile.

There are painful examples of situations like this happening such as two people working toward a goal, they fail to achieve the goal for a while but they still have faith they will achieve it eventually. Then, as they age..they get super close but squander the opportunity in the end. After they squander the opportunity, there is still another chance to go for it again, but being so close and failing was just too devastating so they begin to blame each other, and one party just decides it would be best to try to achieve the goal with another partner while he still has a few more years to try.

Neither side was really to blame. Both sides tried, both sides failed..but after failure the finger pointing started.

Rodgers is in the "take my ball and go home" stage of this mental roller coaster. Losing the NFCCG and watching Brady win an easy game was harder on him than most recognized. He will be back.

But Brady broke him.

And honestly Rodgers talked about this a lot last year - justifying his lack of ring success. He has said too there is varying levels of success and his worst season is most QB's good seasons etc.

You know it bothers him. It bothers us. It would bother any of us. Of course Drew Brees endured the same thing.

go pak go wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 10:28

Of course Drew Brees endured the same thing.

So did Peyton Manning until the very end. Literally every great QB not named Brady has.

Gunzaan wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 09:43

No offense yoho- but that was just a long post that basically was one excuse after another.

And I don’t think the anti-yoop stuff is passive aggressive. He’s been called out specifically multiple times. I’ve had posts deleted saying to stop feeding the troll.

Just because you enjoy reading this insane crap doesn’t mean everyone does. I logged on yesterday to see what people thoughts were of NFL exec’s ranking Jaire Alexander the #6 CB overall - instead, the same 3 people are arguing about useless &%$@ - AGAIN - for the 90th day in a row.

YOU called me a TROLL, when actually your the one that pops in here complaining all the time, like a TROLL, you bring nothing for anyone to discuss, and complain about comments on topics others are discussing, as others said, if ya don't like the topic then move on, or go dig up a topic to discuss and bring it as I and others here do.

do you seriously think we are here to provide you with Packer news, we are not your personal secretary.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 10:08

I had a thought the other day as Rodgers was at "The Match" and talking about mental health.

What if this entire thing has been a mental breakdown?
....

Rodgers is in the "take my ball and go home" stage of this mental roller coaster. Losing the NFCCG and watching Brady win an easy game was harder on him than most recognized. He will be back.

But Brady broke him.

I agree to an extent. I do think this is a major mental health hurdle for Rodgers. To me, it's always been about control. This is going to be a long post full of armchair psychology and psycho-babble. I've only touched on this in limited forms because I think it's silly to assume that I can know a person's heart and brain from a distance, but I've felt this way for a while, and it's July, so here we are....

If you listened to his comments from the time Love was drafted right on through to his post-NFCCG presser, including the weekly Pat McAfee interviews, at first it all seems like a contradiction.

Rodgers spent the 2020 season in some sort of zen mode of happiness. He was truly enjoying himself more than he has in ages. It was very apparent. So when he ended the season and threw a fit, everyone wondered "was the happiness a lie? was the zen mode an act?"

I think it was neither. I think he was doing some temporary coping mechanisms and is just now dealing with the fallout of his epiphanies. Let me explain.

So we all know Rodgers' post-Love press circuit focused on him saying he realized now that there are things he can't control. He always thought he'd finish his career with the Packers, and that he would exit on his own terms, and then the selection of Love made him realize that, in fact, the Packers were in control--they controlled how his career ended.

What he said (and what he wanted to believe) was that he came to terms with the fact that there are things he can control and things he can't, and he would worry about the things he can control and not worry about the things he can't. That is a very healthy life outlook, beneficial to all people, a foundation of addiction recovery programs, traditional therapy, and self-help mantras alike. I think he truly wanted to believe that and embrace it, and that he was serious when he spoke about it.

But Rodgers has been a guy who likes to be in control for most of his life. While the lack of recruiting and JuCo experience gave him a bit of humility at first, his ability to overcome that, play his way to a major college, and then into the conversation for the best QB in college football, then the NFL, gave him a sense of control--that if he worked hard, honed his craft, and played up to his own high standards, he would ultimately wrestle control of his own life back from the universe.

So when he found himself staring at a lack of control, he embraced all the right mantras and he really genuinely tried to grow from it. He was happy because he found love, he had a fun team, good teammates, a coach he liked and respected, and he tried not to worry about the other stuff--about the fact that the team had just asserted its ability to control his career.

But what I think ACTUALLY happened was that Rodgers focused on the things he could control as a way to once again wrestle back control of his life from the universe (in this case, from the team). He dedicated himself to playing his absolute best, because he knew if he played his absolute best, he would win MVP and the the Super Bowl. And the team would have no choice but to keep him for as long as he wanted. He thought that winning it all would grant him the control he was coping with losing.

So two things happened. One: he did not win it all. Two: the game was within his control to win (that's not to say he is to blame; it's to say he was one of the factors that could have turned the game for the better). I think when his ability to control his own play, his own success, his own trajectory did not lead to his ability to win the Super Bowl, he broke.

I guess I can see how Brady would be related to that. Brady does, it seems, have a higher level of control in all facets. He's defying age through diet and exercise. He's willed his team to so many championships. He left New England on his own terms, was granted a slightly higher level of control at his new team, and also won the Super Bowl there. Rodgers MIGHT look at Brady and say "wow, he seems to be in control of his body, his play, his career, and his team success." But I've never fully bought that this has a lot to do with Brady.

So I think when Rodgers looked at the way past players have departed the Packers, from Favre to Sitton to Jordy to Lang to Kumerow... he realized, in his moment of defeat, that nothing he did this season was going to give him back the control he thought he had in his life before Love was selected. He put his all into it, he controlled what he could control to his absolute best, and he still could be cut or traded or what have you at the drop of a hat. This is when his "I threw a wrench into their plans by having the year I did" comments really come into play.

When Rodgers realized that winning MVP didn't give him back control AND that playing elite football all year still didn't allow him to control for randomness and team outcomes by winning a Super Bowl, he was left to either confront the epiphany he made a year earlier--that he truly wasn't in control and should only worry about the things he can control and nothing else--or he could TAKE control back. And that's what he did. He realized after losing the NFCCG that if he wanted control of his life and career, nothing ON the field could grant him that. The only way to assert and achieve the control he wants over his career and life was to demand it.

Unfortunately, he's wrong. The true lesson is that you can't control everything, no matter how good you are. The true lesson was what he preached all year--that if you focus on yourself and not on things out of your control, you can live your best life, and he did. But it was too much for him to accept and embrace. He wasn't truly there yet; he was there intellectually but not on a baser, emotional, internalized level. And now we're all dealing with the fallout.

That's my theory, at least.

Just fantastic posting the last page and a half.

[mention]YoHoChecko[/mention] - absolutely brilliant post.

The one thing I have been battling internally all off season after seeing the internal turmoil that Rodgers is fighting through...that even if Rodgers does decide to play for the Packers in 2021, do we honestly believe his head space and chemistry with the team, etc. can repeat of what we saw last year?

go pak go wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 10:42

Just fantastic posting the last page and a half.

@YoHoChecko - absolutely brilliant post.

The one thing I have been battling internally all off season after seeing the internal turmoil that Rodgers is fighting through...that even if Rodgers does decide to play for the Packers in 2021, do we honestly believe his head space and chemistry with the team, etc. can repeat of what we saw last year?

Thanks.

And yeah, that concern is exactly what [mention]TheSkeptic[/mention] keeps alluding to when he says we have no shot at a Super Bowl; we either have Love's unknown abilities and inexperience, or a Rodgers so distracted and out of synch that he resembles the malcontent in the late McCarthy years.

I think that MLF's scheme will ease the transition and our strong roster would allow for enough winning even with a regressed Rodgers that the winning-solves-everything mode would take over, team chemistry will build and gel, and Rodgers will get re-amped up again. But I think his cognitive dissonance between "control what you can control" and "I deep down believe that I can control everything if I put my mind to it" will be an issue for him (and for most humans) throughout his life right on through couples therapy

go pak go wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 10:42

The one thing I have been battling internally all off season after seeing the internal turmoil that Rodgers is fighting through...that even if Rodgers does decide to play for the Packers in 2021, do we honestly believe his head space and chemistry with the team, etc. can repeat of what we saw last year?

I think it's an easy yes. I think there are tie-ins to Favre, here. The commitment, knowing the mental prep work that goes into another season, was something Favre struggled with year after year. Make no mistake, though, guys like Favre or Aaron Rodgers, when they make up their minds, there is no half-assing it... they just only know one speed and that is full speed ahead.

go pak go wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 10:42

Just fantastic posting the last page and a half.

@YoHoChecko - absolutely brilliant post.

The one thing I have been battling internally all off season after seeing the internal turmoil that Rodgers is fighting through...that even if Rodgers does decide to play for the Packers in 2021, do we honestly believe his head space and chemistry with the team, etc. can repeat of what we saw last year?

I think last year was the best chance. Everything broke our way in terms of home field, rivals getting injured, etc etc

But ya, NFL guys have the ability to put things to bed and move on eventually. Rodgers looks to be in good shape and still has the talent, if he shows up and plays well...I see no reason why the team cant build on last year and keep up their chemistry. If he shows up and is a turd, well the team will certainly be affected.

But if he chooses to return to going all in and isnt a turd, I dont think anything has been done that cant be fully repaired within the locker room. Rodgers could never speak to Murph or Gute again and it would have minimal effect on chemistry in the locker room and the field

Yoop wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 10:31

Gunzaan wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 09:43

No offense yoho- but that was just a long post that basically was one excuse after another.

And I don’t think the anti-yoop stuff is passive aggressive. He’s been called out specifically multiple times. I’ve had posts deleted saying to stop feeding the troll.

Just because you enjoy reading this insane crap doesn’t mean everyone does. I logged on yesterday to see what people thoughts were of NFL exec’s ranking Jaire Alexander the #6 CB overall - instead, the same 3 people are arguing about useless &%$@ - AGAIN - for the 90th day in a row.

YOU called me a TROLL, when actually your the one that pops in here complaining all the time, like a TROLL, you bring nothing for anyone to discuss, and complain about comments on topics others are discussing, as others said, if ya don't like the topic then move on, or go dig up a topic to discuss and bring it as I and others here do.

do you seriously think we are here to provide you with Packer news, we are not your personal secretary.

You have reading comprehension issues. As I stated, I come here for opinions from specific posters - I value those well thought out opinions. I get my news from many other sources.

Just because you post a lot doesn’t equate to you having any value.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 10:51

But if he chooses to return to going all in and isnt a turd, I dont think anything has been done that cant be fully repaired within the locker room. Rodgers could never speak to Murph or Gute again and it would have minimal effect on chemistry in the locker room and the field

Honestly, the locker room seems to be in great shape. I LOVED hearing from Jones, Adams, Bakhtiari, and Amos, particularly, this offseason. They love Rodgers, they're accepting that he's going about his business, they're focusing on themselves, and they want to go ball out with or without him. The leadership on this team is strong--it's exactly what was lacking both under Sherman and in the late McCarthy years. The Draft and Develop style that had a ton of youth playing vital roles at all times was good from a talent perspective in a young man's game, but from a mental preparedness and resilience standpoint, we lacked. We have it now.

I feel strongly that this team is a playoff team with or without Rodgers. They're a potential SB team with him. Without him, they're only contenders if Love surprises us with a Mahomes/Lamar Jackson style sophomore campaign, which is possible but I think we would all agree highly unlikely.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 10:08

I had a thought the other day as Rodgers was at "The Match" and talking about mental health.

What if this entire thing has been a mental breakdown?

He knows the team has resigned Jones, tried to give him a defense, brought in a new coach, etc etc.

He knows last year was his best chance to win a ring with the Packers and the team squandered the opportunity. I mean lets face it, he knows the niners are going to be better, he knows the Rams got better, he knows the Bucs will be more cohesive than they were last year in year 2.

He put so much into last year and the loss was so devastatingly deflating that he had to lash out and run away for awhile.

There are painful examples of situations like this happening such as two people working toward a goal, they fail to achieve the goal for a while but they still have faith they will achieve it eventually. Then, as they age..they get super close but squander the opportunity in the end. After they squander the opportunity, there is still another chance to go for it again, but being so close and failing was just too devastating so they begin to blame each other, and one party just decides it would be best to try to achieve the goal with another partner while he still has a few more years to try.

Neither side was really to blame. Both sides tried, both sides failed..but after failure the finger pointing started.

Rodgers is in the "take my ball and go home" stage of this mental roller coaster. Losing the NFCCG and watching Brady win an easy game was harder on him than most recognized. He will be back.

But Brady broke him.

You might be onto something. I thought something similar too. Getting old isn't easy and I think a lot of men in their late 30's suffer from mental illness, depression, etc. I haven't been through anything too bad but being 40 now, even a few years ago were pretty tough on me mentally. Sometimes when people go through something, they lash out at other people, so it does kind of make sense.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 10:58

Without him, they're only contenders if Love surprises us with a Mahomes/Lamar Jackson style sophomore campaign, which is possible but I think we would all agree highly unlikely.

I think the biggest problem here is that I would not really consider this a sophomore campaign for Love. We've argued this before and in some ways it obviously is, but in many other ways, it isn't.

NCF wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 11:00

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

09 Jul 2021 10:58

Without him, they're only contenders if Love surprises us with a Mahomes/Lamar Jackson style sophomore campaign, which is possible but I think we would all agree highly unlikely.

I think the biggest problem here is that I would not really consider this a sophomore campaign for Love. We've argued this before and in some ways it obviously is, but in many other ways, it isn't.

If Love waisted his rookie year, thats on him