Packers Huddle

wallyuwl wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 14:36

Just kind of hit me: looking at that list, this team is not very good. Only six "red" or higher guys.

Every year we've done this (every year since 2014), the tier line that this represents has been spot #4 or spot #5. This is the first year we've gone to #6. As perceived by us at this time of year, this is the MOST talented this team has been at the top.

The solid starter tier OTOH used to end in the 15-16 range, last year and this year it looks like its going to end at pick #13. So we are a bit light in red chippers and solid starters.

That said, higher turnover in the mid and low tier starters is to be expected with a new GM and coach.

wallyuwl wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 14:36

Just kind of hit me: looking at that list, this team is not very good. Only six "red" or higher guys.

Just kinda hit me: our 13-3 team that went to the NFC Championship game is not very good. I have created color-coded arbitrary systems to evaluate players and rosters, and that layman's eye look at a list of players is clearly a better indicator of roster talent than success on the field.

wallyuwl wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 14:36

Just kind of hit me: looking at that list, this team is not very good. Only six "red" or higher guys.

Well a "Not Very Good" roster went 13-3 and was a game away from the Super Bowl. That does not happen by fluke. I think your perception may be inaccurate.

wallyuwl wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 14:36

Just kind of hit me: looking at that list, this team is not very good. Only six "red" or higher guys.

Curious... How many would constitute a good team in your opinion?

Also, the positions where the top talent lies matters. QB, LT and EDGE are definitely premium positions. Many would count WR1 and CB1 as premium spots, and our CB1 is probably the next guy voted in. I'd claim a pass rush -capable 3-down DL is a premium thing, too, but it's so rare as not to be a position on every team.

NFL.com's Bucky Brooks ranked positions thus: QB, EDGE1, LT, CB1, WR1, (3-down) DT, RB, EDGE2, MLB (ILB1), TE, FS, WLB (ILB2?), RT, CB2, RG, WR2, C, SS, SLB (ILB3?), LG, NT, WR3, K, P, KR/PR. Generally OK ranking, tho I question some of the later ones (WLB over RT? TE over FS? RG over LG?), and I looked at other rankings that place especially safeties and ILB higher (and lower).

Still, I would claim we have our top talent at the right spots.

Chuckled a little seeing 4 consecutive posters quoting wally after he posts his weekly negative packer comment. Should know by now we shouldn't expect any positive or even neutral takes on that front.

all 4 where so civil, wally= click bait.

BF004 wrote: ↑

06 May 2020 10:08

Chuckled a little seeing 4 consecutive posters quoting wally after he posts his weekly negative packer comment. Should know by why we shouldn't expect any positive or even neutral takes on that front.

True, but he reminded me of a thought I had earlier about our top talent being at the most important positions.

I started wondering, "wally can't REALLY be THAT negative, can he?" and went through his PN.net posts. Could not find a single outright positive post about the Packers all last season. Not one. In a 14-3 season. That is truly legendary level of grumpiness, and I'm glad he're here to ground us hopeless optimists.

salmar80 wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 16:04

NFL.com's Bucky Brooks ranked positions thus: QB, EDGE1, LT, CB1, WR1, (3-down) DT, RB, EDGE2, MLB (ILB1), TE, FS, WLB (ILB2?), RT, CB2, RG, WR2, C, SS, SLB (ILB3?), LG, NT, WR3, K, P, KR/PR. Generally OK ranking, tho I question some of the later ones (WLB over RT? TE over FS? RG over LG?), and I looked at other rankings that place especially safeties and ILB higher (and lower).

Still, I would claim we have our top talent at the right spots.

I would have it as (for today's league, subject to change): QB, ... CB1, WR1, DT1, LT, ... FS, EDGE1, o-t-b LB1, ... IOL, RB, o-t-b LB2, RT, CB2, ... WR2, DT2, TE, ... EDGE2, WR3, SS, K, ... P, SAM-LB, LS, FB, KR/PR.

Interesting... if LT is in that 2nd tier, why isn't Edge1? If DT1 is in that 2nd tier why isn't G/C?

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

06 May 2020 10:52

Interesting... if LT is in that 2nd tier, why isn't Edge1? If DT1 is in that 2nd tier why isn't G/C?

DT v. IOL ... IOL who get the job done are not as hard to find, and good IOL play is more about unit cohesion than individual talent anyway, but a DT has to be more than just a technically refined bigman to be the type that makes an impact. I also think that interior pass-rush is way more disruptive/effective than edge-rush because it forces the QB to off his spot rather than hang in there.

LT v. EDGE ... There is no substitute for a LT that can shut down a strong pass-rusher. There *is* a substitute for EDGE1: you can build up a secondary that gives QBs no option but to take sacks -- in fact, in today's NFL, I think that is the more prudent approach than the other way around.

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 14:44

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 14:39

These are blues. Maybe with the exception of Rodgers. We haven't got into the reds yet.

Yup. even after Clark there are still blues in this list

Which begs the age-old question- forgive me if this has already been discussed- what makes a player "blue chip?"

Captain_Ben wrote: ↑

06 May 2020 16:58

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 14:44

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 14:39

These are blues. Maybe with the exception of Rodgers. We haven't got into the reds yet.

Yup. even after Clark there are still blues in this list

Which begs the age-old question- forgive me if this has already been discussed- what makes a player "blue chip?"

No one knows, it's left vague so those who want to say we don't have enough of them can be right.

Captain_Ben wrote: ↑

06 May 2020 16:58

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 14:44

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 14:39

These are blues. Maybe with the exception of Rodgers. We haven't got into the reds yet.

Yup. even after Clark there are still blues in this list

Which begs the age-old question- forgive me if this has already been discussed- what makes a player "blue chip?"

I think blues are top 3 to top 5, varying at times, maybe like 4-6 for positions where there can be multiple on the field frequent, like WR, CB, guard etc.

I’d say reds are top 8-10, maybe top 12-15 for a few positions.

We do not have any blues left for sure. Red maybe Linsley and Preston at current without projection. Some young guys with potential to be red.

In my book, blues are Z, Adams, Jones, Kenny and Bak

Reds are Aaron, Linsley and Preston.

HM’s Jaire, King, Amos, Elgton.

Bulaga is was probably a red, blue if it’s RT only. I think we considered Blake a red this time last year.


But that’s just my opinion.

Labrev wrote: ↑

06 May 2020 16:43

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

06 May 2020 10:52

Interesting... if LT is in that 2nd tier, why isn't Edge1? If DT1 is in that 2nd tier why isn't G/C?

DT v. IOL ... IOL who get the job done are not as hard to find, and good IOL play is more about unit cohesion than individual talent anyway, but a DT has to be more than just a technically refined bigman to be the type that makes an impact. I also think that interior pass-rush is way more disruptive/effective than edge-rush because it forces the QB to off his spot rather than hang in there.

LT v. EDGE ... There is no substitute for a LT that can shut down a strong pass-rusher. There *is* a substitute for EDGE1: you can build up a secondary that gives QBs no option but to take sacks -- in fact, in today's NFL, I think that is the more prudent approach than the other way around.

I will give you the first, but not the second. The success of a secondary and pass rush go hand in hand. Also, as you said, it is easier to stop interior pass rush because of help there. On the edge it is much more difficult without leaving a Target in to block. A very good edge rusher doesn't have a substitute either.

NCF wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 07:47

Waldo wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 07:46

Who has the early lead for CB #3? Jackson, Hollman, or do we call Greene our 5th DB?

I'd say based on where we ended last year, its unequivocally Chandon Sullivan.

NCF wrote: ↑

07 May 2020 11:18

NCF wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 07:47

Waldo wrote: ↑

05 May 2020 07:46

Who has the early lead for CB #3? Jackson, Hollman, or do we call Greene our 5th DB?

I'd say based on where we ended last year, its unequivocally Chandon Sullivan.

Wow. This is something that would be cool to look further into because Chandon only had one INT last year so it's not like 3 or 4 INTs are scewing these passer rating numbers.

There was absolute noticeable upgrade in play once they put Sullivan out there and Redmond out of there.

I don't think this is the greatest resource because Pro Football Reference disagrees on Passes Defended but I have a summary of total basic stats compared to game by game detail for Chandon. This new forum feature of image pasting is so cool

4.6 40 is...not good...for a CB

Waldo wrote: ↑

07 May 2020 15:57

4.6 40 is...not good...for a CB

Weird for a guy with elite jumps in both categories.

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/chandon-sullivan

Eye test says he's not THAT slow. Also, this:

The 2017 NFL Combine proved to be a mixed bag for Sullivan. Fighting through a hamstring injury, Sullivan could only muster a mediocre 4.6 40-yard dash time, but his 40.5 inch vertical leap bested all cornerbacks in Indianapolis. After having to push back his Pro Day, Sullivan vastly improved his 40-yard dash time, and was timed in the 4.48-4.51 range. He was put through positional drills by the San Francisco 49ers and the Eagles. The Georgia State standout was projected to go in the seventh-round.

https://theeagleswire.usatoday.com/2018 ... is-chance/

Labrev wrote: ↑

06 May 2020 16:43

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

06 May 2020 10:52

Interesting... if LT is in that 2nd tier, why isn't Edge1? If DT1 is in that 2nd tier why isn't G/C?

DT v. IOL ... IOL who get the job done are not as hard to find, and good IOL play is more about unit cohesion than individual talent anyway, but a DT has to be more than just a technically refined bigman to be the type that makes an impact. I also think that interior pass-rush is way more disruptive/effective than edge-rush because it forces the QB to off his spot rather than hang in there.

LT v. EDGE ... There is no substitute for a LT that can shut down a strong pass-rusher. There *is* a substitute for EDGE1: you can build up a secondary that gives QBs no option but to take sacks -- in fact, in today's NFL, I think that is the more prudent approach than the other way around.

it's a numbers game, it's far easier to keep two edge rushers or to replace them, then it is to get and keep 5 secondary starters, other wise I'd agree with you, and still do with that qualifier, coverage will almost always trump pass rush in the first 2.5 to 3 count.

I think we where 2nd last year in pass rush efficency, which is to say on 31% of opposing pass plays our pass rush forced the QB to try and avoid it, they still may have completed that pass, that means that on almost 70% of pass plays, possibly more, coverage had to hold up for at least that 2.5 to 3 count.