Packers Huddle

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 10:48

Yoop wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 10:45

he's to slow to react, and he lacks the instincts, and lacks the physicality to play in the box against the run.

You used to bash me for saying this.

actually I believe Savage is a very good 2 high safety, with limited ability against the run, he has the physical ability to be a very good FS, just lacks the mental part, quick thinking to play deep.

again I think Savage will get 4 to 5 mil. from a team that uses 2 high.

Guess I don't think we are just fine with Owens and Valentine and/or some of the others.

I think Barry's scheme and strategy had a lot to do with protecting the DB's, keeping the stress on the DL and LB's. Why we kept going hard on front 7, resigining Gary, drafting Wyatt and Van Ness, Quay and resigning DaVondre. If you got great talent there, you can hide DB's and their shortcomings. We never really had that top end talent in the front 7, so you would see that come up where we get gashed for 200+ yards and QB's can just eat us over the middle of the field or just dink and dunk us all the way down on an 8 minute drive. But we really didn’t get beat deep often.

However I now think a lot of that stress is going to move to the secondary. We schematically stop the run, play more aggressive on the WR's, just by alignment, often have another body in those shorter zones where we've been killed.

However now, gunna have to think back to those days of King and Randall getting torched up the sideline and HaHa being about 5 steps late. We can't really hide the guys like Owens and Valentine anymore. Maybe Valentine will still actually develop well, but to run the D how I think we are going to run it, this is now where we need our best players and I think we need significant upgrades.

BF004 wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 10:30

Savage got all his money last year. We paid him all we owe him. We just haven’t counted it on the books yet.

your right I forgot that detail, it just goes against the cap, thing is I just can see a player who actually is best suited for a scheme we don't intend to use signing for vet minimum to play in it.

Savage is a starting caliber safety in a cover 2 scheme, I think he'll go to a team with a scheme like that and get more then we want to pay him.

I just wanna know where this player has been the past 4 years.

Darnell Savage Jr college tape:

APB wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 18:46

I just wanna know where this player has been the past 4 years.

Darnell Savage Jr college tape:

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

01 Feb 2024 16:10

As for Savage, he was know for making plays on the ball in college and even under Pettine. Barry, not so much.

His 2nd year I thought we had something. Then I attributed year 1 with learning a new season... I honestly think he was miscast in Barry's defense.

We did not see that version of Savage for the exact reasons Mike Daniels explained. We do not hammer home the need for our players to be tough and play with physicality, and it made players who came to our team physical lose their edge. In the NFL, you are what you emphasize.

Mike Wahle talks about this all the time. He says that athletes are programmed to "jump" as high as they are instructed. He said that the problem with Savage is, we do not make a point to have our players play physical.

It is also a symptom of having defenses that instruct its players to "read" to the offense, a.k.a. think, and then react, as opposed to a defense that instructs its players to attack. Don't wait to figure out what the offense is doing and then move, go put them on their butts before they can do anything at all. Our safety position is especially victimized by this.

Now, he was never a strong tackler. You can see in the clip that he hits more than form-tackles. That was an issue that needed to be corrected, and never was. Yet a lack of physicality was not an issue, it became one in GB because they do not breed that mentality into its players.

we arguably had 2 of the best safety's in the league in 2020, Amos had over 80 tackles, Savage just short of that, and between the 2 had over 20 pds, they roamed, they hit, and they covered, then we hired Joe Barry.

point is in one scheme our safety's excelled, in the other they declined, stats don't tell the whole story, but they expose that.

I like PFR in that you can click and scroll easily from one season to the next, heres 2020

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... b/2020.htm

Why are total tackles the bellweather for good Safety play?

Yoop wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 07:20

we arguably had 2 of the best safety's in the league in 2020, Amos had over 80 tackles, Savage just short of that, and between the 2 had over 20 pds, they roamed, they hit, and they covered, then we hired Joe Barry.

point is in one scheme our safety's excelled, in the other they declined, stats don't tell the whole story, but they expose that.

I like PFR in that you can click and scroll easily from one season to the next, heres 2020

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... b/2020.htm

I get the desire to point to one year with Pettine and say "See!!! He's good!!"

But you also have to be honest with yourself that Savage doesn't make the plays when he is in position to make them.

Case in point, Savage drops a pick 6 in SF. Savage fails to make the tackle on Christian McCaffrey that ends up being a 30+ yard TD.

Like dude. Just make the plays you are in position to make.

Labrev wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 19:48

We did not see that version of Savage for the exact reasons Mike Daniels explained. We do not hammer home the need for our players to be tough and play with physicality, and it made players who came to our team physical lose their edge. In the NFL, you are what you emphasize.

Mike Wahle talks about this all the time. He says that athletes are programmed to "jump" as high as they are instructed. He said that the problem with Savage is, we do not make a point to have our players play physical.

It is also a symptom of having defenses that instruct its players to "read" to the offense, a.k.a. think, and then react, as opposed to a defense that instructs its players to attack. Don't wait to figure out what the offense is doing and then move, go put them on their butts before they can do anything at all. Our safety position is especially victimized by this.

Now, he was never a strong tackler. You can see in the clip that he hits more than form-tackles. That was an issue that needed to be corrected, and never was. Yet a lack of physicality was not an issue, it became one in GB because they do not breed that mentality into its players.

I’ve been saying this. As great an offensive mind as LaFleur is the players fake after him. They’re all wimpy and soft. We don’t block up front in the run game well. We don’t shed blocks well. We don’t tackle well. We sure as don’t rally.

I just listened to Ben Fennel on the Locked on Podcast and he said everything I’ve been saying and why the Barry defense didn’t work. It wasn’t as much a schematic problem as it was an effort problem.

Players don’t run and rally to the ball and when you already don’t tackle well you end up giving up big plays that should be minimal gains. On top of that when you don’t rally you don’t get the forced fumble opportunities because ball carriers are more vulnerable when more people are on them.

Players reflect attitude. I’m hoping Hafley injects some physicality into this defense.

I brought Savages 2nd season because he did make plays, did make a difference, in fact was considered one of the best safety's in the league once Pettine used more cover 2, Savage does his best work when allowed to free lance

A safety job is covering and tackling, why wouldn't bulk tackles be important? or PD's, basically thats about all the info there is.

Savage is a lot better then Joe Barry made him, just name another secondary player that prospered under Barry, when a player doesn't believe in a scheme, he wont support that scheme, he'll take plays off, he'll give less then 100%, thats reality, some of you live in this make believe world where this could never be true, wake up, you just watched that go on for 2 whole seasons

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 09:37

Labrev wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 19:48

We did not see that version of Savage for the exact reasons Mike Daniels explained. We do not hammer home the need for our players to be tough and play with physicality, and it made players who came to our team physical lose their edge. In the NFL, you are what you emphasize.

Mike Wahle talks about this all the time. He says that athletes are programmed to "jump" as high as they are instructed. He said that the problem with Savage is, we do not make a point to have our players play physical.

It is also a symptom of having defenses that instruct its players to "read" to the offense, a.k.a. think, and then react, as opposed to a defense that instructs its players to attack. Don't wait to figure out what the offense is doing and then move, go put them on their butts before they can do anything at all. Our safety position is especially victimized by this.

Now, he was never a strong tackler. You can see in the clip that he hits more than form-tackles. That was an issue that needed to be corrected, and never was. Yet a lack of physicality was not an issue, it became one in GB because they do not breed that mentality into its players.

I’ve been saying this. As great an offensive mind as LaFleur is the players fake after him. They’re all wimpy and soft. We don’t block up front in the run game well. We don’t shed blocks well. We don’t tackle well. We sure as don’t rally.

I just listened to Ben Fennel on the Locked on Podcast and he said everything I’ve been saying and why the Barry defense didn’t work. It wasn’t as much a schematic problem as it was an effort problem.

Players don’t run and rally to the ball and when you already don’t tackle well you end up giving up big plays that should be minimal gains. On top of that when you don’t rally you don’t get the forced fumble opportunities because ball carriers are more vulnerable when more people are on them.

Players reflect attitude. I’m hoping Hafley injects some physicality into this defense.

well said, Savage may not be that ultra physical safety, but he's better then the player we saw these last 3 seasons, same with the rest of this defense.

It's why I was ready to give up on Lafleur, Barry was a cancer to this whole defense, should have been fired after the 2022 season

Yoop wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 09:52

Savage is a lot better then Joe Barry made him,

That seems to fly in the face of the evidence.

I mean, whatever Joe Barry called in the SF game placed Savage in position to get an INT, maybe even score a TD with said INT, but he pissed that one away. It also put him in position to limit an explosive run by CMC, who was otherwise a lot less effective at running the ball than he was against most teams they faced this year, only to let McCafferey rip off a big run for 6. I mean Savage basically lost the game for us.

If anything, Savage made Joe Barry's defenses look worse way more than the other way around.

just name another secondary player that prospered under Barry,

Um, okay. Rasul Douglas.

PFF on Savage going into 2021:

18. DARNELL SAVAGE, GREEN BAY PACKERS
Savage is moving in the right direction but is still a little more flash than substance. Watching him, you get the real sense that he is on the precipice of being a genuinely great player rather than the very good one that he is right now. Savage recorded four picks and seven pass breakups and made several critical hits last year. His biggest issue was with missed tackles, with 16 total on the year.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-safety-ran ... nfl-season

If a safety is playing 16/17 games they should get a load of tackles. That does not tell anyone how actually good they are. There are plenty of other stats to look at: PDs, INTs, Missed Tackle%, Yards/Target, TDs, Cmp%.

Savage among safeties in 2020:
CMP% - 5th
PDs - 2nd
INTs - 5th
Yards/TGT - 51st
TDs - 14th
Missing Tackle% - 33rd
Tackles - 35th

Savage was on his way in 2020. I fully believe Barry's defense miscast him.

Labrev wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 10:10

Yoop wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 09:52

Savage is a lot better then Joe Barry made him,

That seems to fly in the face of the evidence.

I mean, whatever Joe Barry called in the SF game placed Savage in position to get an INT, maybe even score a TD with said INT, but he pissed that one away. It also put him in position to limit an explosive run by CMC, who was otherwise a lot less effective at running the ball than he was against most teams they faced this year, only to let McCafferey rip off a big run for 6. I mean Savage basically lost the game for us.

If anything, Savage made Joe Barry's defenses look worse way more than the other way around.

just name another secondary player that prospered under Barry,

Um, okay. Rasul Douglas.

I could rip apart plays of every player we have, or ever did have, none are perfect 100% of the time. Adams drops a perfectly thrown TD pass in a PO game, typically it's lack of concentration, or jitters, what lost that Niner game was Barry slacking off the pass rush and prevent defense.

Lupe smoked this right out of the park, why is it we always blame one guy for a missed tackle? why not blame others as well who stand around and watch him miss it, why aren't they there to help him make it?

Savage will hit the market, or we'll pay him, if we offer vet minimum he'll laugh and leave and make another 4 to 5 mil somewhere else

I think you are misinterpreting what Lupe said...

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 10:19

PFF on Savage going into 2021:

18. DARNELL SAVAGE, GREEN BAY PACKERS
Savage is moving in the right direction but is still a little more flash than substance. Watching him, you get the real sense that he is on the precipice of being a genuinely great player rather than the very good one that he is right now. Savage recorded four picks and seven pass breakups and made several critical hits last year. His biggest issue was with missed tackles, with 16 total on the year.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-safety-ran ... nfl-season

If a safety is playing 16/17 games they should get a load of tackles. That does not tell anyone how actually good they are. There are plenty of other stats to look at: PDs, INTs, Missed Tackle%, Yards/Target, TDs, Cmp%.

Savage among safeties in 2020:
CMP% - 5th
PDs - 2nd
INTs - 5th
Yards/TGT - 51st
TDs - 14th
Missing Tackle% - 33rd
Tackles - 35th

Savage was on his way in 2020. I fully believe Barry's defense miscast him.

35th?????????? the guy had 75 tackles for us, 4th on the team, Amos had 83 as a SS, those two where one of the best combo's in the league, PFF is broken, thanks for the info anyway.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 10:41

I think you are misinterpreting what Lupe said...

not the part that matters

Yoop wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 10:43

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 10:19

PFF on Savage going into 2021:

18. DARNELL SAVAGE, GREEN BAY PACKERS
Savage is moving in the right direction but is still a little more flash than substance. Watching him, you get the real sense that he is on the precipice of being a genuinely great player rather than the very good one that he is right now. Savage recorded four picks and seven pass breakups and made several critical hits last year. His biggest issue was with missed tackles, with 16 total on the year.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-safety-ran ... nfl-season

If a safety is playing 16/17 games they should get a load of tackles. That does not tell anyone how actually good they are. There are plenty of other stats to look at: PDs, INTs, Missed Tackle%, Yards/Target, TDs, Cmp%.

Savage among safeties in 2020:
CMP% - 5th
PDs - 2nd
INTs - 5th
Yards/TGT - 51st
TDs - 14th
Missing Tackle% - 33rd
Tackles - 35th

Savage was on his way in 2020. I fully believe Barry's defense miscast him.

35th?????????? the guy had 75 tackles for us, 4th on the team, Amos had 83 as a SS, those two where one of the best combo's in the league, PFF is broken, thanks for the info anyway.

It's not PFF. Tackles are an official stat.

Yoop wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 10:43

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 10:41

I think you are misinterpreting what Lupe said...

not the part that matters

You are misinterpreting what Lupe is saying.