Packers Huddle

go pak go wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 14:50

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 12:25

If you are going to draft a RB that will start the season on PUP you almost have to keep Dillon. He won't be cheap

No you don't. Dillon is a guy. He is a JAG. You have anyone else in the lineup besides Dillon and you will get the same production as Dillon - if not more.

Well we had Taylor and Wilson at the end of the season and neither of them looked (to me) anywhere near as good as Dillon. But I guess it is my opinion without any solid data. To me, Wilson looked great in the pre-season and awful at the end of the season and in the playoffs. Taylor always looks awful. IMO Dillon is the type of RB that gets better as the game progresses. Also, having Jones will make almost any RB look mediocre by comparison.

We will know soon enough whether Dillon is a JAG or a legitimate RB.

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 20:48

go pak go wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 14:50

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 12:25

If you are going to draft a RB that will start the season on PUP you almost have to keep Dillon. He won't be cheap

No you don't. Dillon is a guy. He is a JAG. You have anyone else in the lineup besides Dillon and you will get the same production as Dillon - if not more.

Well we had Taylor and Wilson at the end of the season and neither of them looked (to me) anywhere near as good as Dillon. But I guess it is my opinion without any solid data. To me, Wilson looked great in the pre-season and awful at the end of the season and in the playoffs. Taylor always looks awful. IMO Dillon is the type of RB that gets better as the game progresses. Also, having Jones will make almost any RB look mediocre by comparison.

We will know soon enough whether Dillon is a JAG or a legitimate RB.

Near as good as Dillon? Dillon was &%$@ all year. He’s been average his whole time in GB. Fact of the matter is he is just an average back that was over drafted like we all acknowledged when it happened.

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 21:04

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 20:48

go pak go wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 14:50

No you don't. Dillon is a guy. He is a JAG. You have anyone else in the lineup besides Dillon and you will get the same production as Dillon - if not more.

Well we had Taylor and Wilson at the end of the season and neither of them looked (to me) anywhere near as good as Dillon. But I guess it is my opinion without any solid data. To me, Wilson looked great in the pre-season and awful at the end of the season and in the playoffs. Taylor always looks awful. IMO Dillon is the type of RB that gets better as the game progresses. Also, having Jones will make almost any RB look mediocre by comparison.

We will know soon enough whether Dillon is a JAG or a legitimate RB.

Near as good as Dillon? Dillon was &%$@ all year. He’s been average his whole time in GB. Fact of the matter is he is just an average back that was over drafted like we all acknowledged when it happened.

For the 15 millionth time ............ We need back combos like Taylor and Hornung, Taylor and Anderson, Lane and Brockington, Levens and Bennett. Of course an Ahman Green but he wasn't a combo. Of course an Aaron Jones but isn't a combo either. Why can't our GM Gutesheissenbumpsteadkopf find us a combo back to complement Aaron Jones similar or better than Gibbs - Montgomery, Larry Csonka - Mercury Morris, Kevin Mack and Earnest Byner, etc. Where's our thunder back?

RingoCStarrQB wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 21:58

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 21:04

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 20:48

Well we had Taylor and Wilson at the end of the season and neither of them looked (to me) anywhere near as good as Dillon. But I guess it is my opinion without any solid data. To me, Wilson looked great in the pre-season and awful at the end of the season and in the playoffs. Taylor always looks awful. IMO Dillon is the type of RB that gets better as the game progresses. Also, having Jones will make almost any RB look mediocre by comparison.

We will know soon enough whether Dillon is a JAG or a legitimate RB.

Near as good as Dillon? Dillon was &%$@ all year. He’s been average his whole time in GB. Fact of the matter is he is just an average back that was over drafted like we all acknowledged when it happened.

For the 15 millionth time ............ We need back combos like Taylor and Hornung, Taylor and Anderson, Lane and Brockington, Levens and Bennett. Of course an Ahman Green but he wasn't a combo. Of course an Aaron Jones but isn't a combo either. Why can't our GM Gutesheissenbumpsteadkopf find us a combo back to complement Aaron Jones similar or better than Gibbs - Montgomery, Larry Csonka - Mercury Morris, Kevin Mack and Earnest Byner, etc. Where's our thunder back?

A thunder running attack does not depend only on the RB. You need an Oline to implement it and the Packers Oline is built to pass protect. Jones is effective with this Oline because he is quick and fast and finds the inevitable holes that occur when the D is expecting a pass or when MLF calls a gadget play that opens a quick hole for him. But if the same play were called for a thunder RB then the D recovers and closes the hole before that thunder RB can get through it. To have a combo running attack as you want would require either a miracle Oline or to revise the Oline to be less effective in pass protection.

The strength of the Packers O is in the passing attack with 5 good to very good WR's and 2 very good young TE's and a very good to great QB. With this in mind, the Packers can also have an effective RB like Jones who is quick and fast and makes great decisions. They can also have an effective RB who is a thunder back focusing on pass protection and outlet pass receptions and picking up 1st downs on 3rd and 1. Dillon IS such a RB. Wilson CAN BE such a RB IF he progresses in the offseason. Trey Benson who is likely to be available at the start of the 3rd round or end of the 2nd might also fit that role.

But don't expect Dillon to be a thousand yard runner next season. He might give the Packers 1000 yards but a substantial part of that has to be as an outlet receiver. He does not have the speed or quickness to turn the corner on a running play and outrun a safety to the endzone - no RB over 230 pounds can normally do that and Dillon is closer to 250.

The Packers have a decision to make regarding Dillon. Is Wilson good enough to replace him? Can they draft someone who will be better than Wilson but not necessarily better than Dillon? In 2024, this coming season, not a project and not a RB who will start the season on PUP. If the answer is yes, they you let Dillon be a starting RB on another team, which he will be - a team with a power running Oline. If not, then the only thing to do is to keep Dillon for at least 2 more years, regardless of the cost and regardless of whether he is a good fit.

Dillon is a good RB and he probably knows it. The Packers are a bad fit for him and he probably knows that too. Which is why he is not going to be cheap.

I am thinking not enough people give Dillon credit that he deserves.

No, he doesn't run like a 230 freight train. But he does find or create enough space to get the job done. His average per rush is not spectacular but is fine. I wouldn't pay him elite money. But I wouldn't bet against him staying a Packer either. I'd be okay either way. And I'd definitely draft a RB either way.

Scott4Pack wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 06:40

I am thinking not enough people give Dillon credit that he deserves.

No, he doesn't run like a 230 freight train. But he does find or create enough space to get the job done. His average per rush is not spectacular but is fine. I wouldn't pay him elite money. But I wouldn't bet against him staying a Packer either. I'd be okay either way. And I'd definitely draft a RB either way.

He is a solid step up from Wilson and Taylor, larger step down from Jones. As are all but 3-4 other backs maybe.

Elite money? I mean I think we should be talking like 2-4 million a year, 5 is way too much.

After reading Skeptic's explanation I'm now thinking we need another John Riggins. He was a great thunder back, but he had speed as well and wouldn't need this run blocking offensive line that was just discussed. Riggins could pound with the best of them.

Hard for me to understand why a Packers offense would not be able to run the ball effectively without a superstar like Aaron Jones in the backfield. No wonder our QB sneak plays are unsuccessful sometimes..................we can't run block with Dillon! This is potentially a mess over the 17 game season. So sure, draft another RB.

RingoCStarrQB wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 07:51

After reading Skeptic's explanation I'm now thinking we need another John Riggins. He was a great thunder back, but he had speed as well and wouldn't need this run blocking offensive line that was just discussed. Riggins could pound with the best of them.

Hard for me to understand why a Packers offense would not be able to run the ball effectively without a superstar like Aaron Jones in the backfield. No wonder our QB sneak plays are unsuccessful sometimes..................we can't run block with Dillon! This is potentially a mess over the 17 game season. So sure, draft another RB.

IMHO we don't have a choice, we have to draft the best RB in this draft class, whomever Gute is convinced that is, or we will watch defenses key off on Love, our passing game rocks because defenses have to honor our ability to run, take that away and we'll watch the passing game flutter, we'll watch our young gem of a QB get smacked up.

Wilson, Taylor, Dillon, wont keep our QB vertical, no one schemes to stop either of those 3, none can hurt a defense, we need more then they have to give

Football has changed over the last 50 years. The days of just being big at RB are long gone. You need to be able to move. Hell I can't remember the LBer but he said Jones runs harder and packs a bigger punch then Dillon. Give me the sports car at 90 over a dump truck at 20

Hunt is another smaller back that packs a punch. These guys wear down a d as much as this "thunder" back stuff. I'm fine with a bigger back but you have to be able to move somewhat. Dillon has went backwards and looks awful the 1st 2 months. He seems more worried about looking big then being a good back. I think he knows his worth and his love of Wis would bring him back cheap. (He isn't getting paid anywhere)

Running back is a plug in play position. Sure if you have an elite one it matters up outside of maybe 5-7 nobody else moves the needle. I want to run by committee to keep everyone fresh esp Jones for the playoffs. I don't care if the RB is 210 or 260 as long as they are effective. Yes the OL is more built for passing so the speed and decision making matter. I also think we can add some more grinder types inside to balance some.

Fast and explosive.

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 20:48

go pak go wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 14:50

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2024 12:25

If you are going to draft a RB that will start the season on PUP you almost have to keep Dillon. He won't be cheap

No you don't. Dillon is a guy. He is a JAG. You have anyone else in the lineup besides Dillon and you will get the same production as Dillon - if not more.

Well we had Taylor and Wilson at the end of the season and neither of them looked (to me) anywhere near as good as Dillon. But I guess it is my opinion without any solid data. To me, Wilson looked great in the pre-season and awful at the end of the season and in the playoffs. Taylor always looks awful. IMO Dillon is the type of RB that gets better as the game progresses. Also, having Jones will make almost any RB look mediocre by comparison.

We will know soon enough whether Dillon is a JAG or a legitimate RB.

And this is very reason why I don't think Dillon is a good fit in Green Bay. We can't have a running back that needs to be fed the ball to progressively get better as the game goes on. We don't have enough snaps to give to our #2 RB to get him into a groove.

We have too good of a QB. Too good of WRs. Too good of TEs and too good of an RB1 to give our #2 back 15+ carries. Too many people already have to eat. Our number 2 back needs to be able to be featured in a game but they also need to be effective with the 8 to 14 carries they will get in a game that we have to win.

We took the approach of "thunder and lightening". I think we need more of another lightening compliment to Aaron Jones moving foward.

Yoop wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 08:05

RingoCStarrQB wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 07:51

After reading Skeptic's explanation I'm now thinking we need another John Riggins. He was a great thunder back, but he had speed as well and wouldn't need this run blocking offensive line that was just discussed. Riggins could pound with the best of them.

Hard for me to understand why a Packers offense would not be able to run the ball effectively without a superstar like Aaron Jones in the backfield. No wonder our QB sneak plays are unsuccessful sometimes..................we can't run block with Dillon! This is potentially a mess over the 17 game season. So sure, draft another RB.

IMHO we don't have a choice, we have to draft the best RB in this draft class, whomever Gute is convinced that is, or we will watch defenses key off on Love, our passing game rocks because defenses have to honor our ability to run, take that away and we'll watch the passing game flutter, we'll watch our young gem of a QB get smacked up.

Wilson, Taylor, Dillon, wont keep our QB vertical, no one schemes to stop either of those 3, none can hurt a defense, we need more then they have to give

I would tone down on your enthusiasm for "best RB in this class". I don't see many elite RBs in this class. Certainly nobody good enough for the first day. There are a couple of guys I would be okay with in Round 2 but even then I'm not thrilled.

go pak go wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 08:51

Yoop wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 08:05

RingoCStarrQB wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 07:51

After reading Skeptic's explanation I'm now thinking we need another John Riggins. He was a great thunder back, but he had speed as well and wouldn't need this run blocking offensive line that was just discussed. Riggins could pound with the best of them.

Hard for me to understand why a Packers offense would not be able to run the ball effectively without a superstar like Aaron Jones in the backfield. No wonder our QB sneak plays are unsuccessful sometimes..................we can't run block with Dillon! This is potentially a mess over the 17 game season. So sure, draft another RB.

IMHO we don't have a choice, we have to draft the best RB in this draft class, whomever Gute is convinced that is, or we will watch defenses key off on Love, our passing game rocks because defenses have to honor our ability to run, take that away and we'll watch the passing game flutter, we'll watch our young gem of a QB get smacked up.

Wilson, Taylor, Dillon, wont keep our QB vertical, no one schemes to stop either of those 3, none can hurt a defense, we need more then they have to give

I would tone down on your enthusiasm for "best RB in this class". I don't see many elite RBs in this class. Certainly nobody good enough for the first day. There are a couple of guys I would be okay with in Round 2 but even then I'm not thrilled.

havn't really looked much except to agree that 2nd round at some point will start a run on RB's, my point is we should use 1 of our #2's on one of them

Yoop wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 10:09

go pak go wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 08:51

Yoop wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 08:05

IMHO we don't have a choice, we have to draft the best RB in this draft class, whomever Gute is convinced that is, or we will watch defenses key off on Love, our passing game rocks because defenses have to honor our ability to run, take that away and we'll watch the passing game flutter, we'll watch our young gem of a QB get smacked up.

Wilson, Taylor, Dillon, wont keep our QB vertical, no one schemes to stop either of those 3, none can hurt a defense, we need more then they have to give

I would tone down on your enthusiasm for "best RB in this class". I don't see many elite RBs in this class. Certainly nobody good enough for the first day. There are a couple of guys I would be okay with in Round 2 but even then I'm not thrilled.

havn't really looked much except to agree that 2nd round at some point will start a run on RB's, my point is we should use 1 of our #2's on one of them

generic statements like "use a 2nd on a RB" are passable in November when we don't know who is enlisting in the draft.

But we are now in the detail phase of the draft. So the conversation shifts to "who would you actually like to draft?"

Put a face and name to your desire of a "draft X position in X round to make me feel good we properly addressed this position"

I suggest studying up on RBs and coming up with names you like so we can talk about that.

My current short list is:

Jonathan Brooks - Texas (tore his ACL in early November)
Trey Benson - Florida State
Blake Corum - Michigan
Bucky Irving - Oregon
Jaylen Wright - Tennessee

I'd be okay with Brooks anywhere in Rd 2. I am okay with Benson or Corum with our 58th pick. The others I would prefer Rd 3 or later.

Gotta say, I watched the video on Brooks in the OP and I am kinda lukewarm. He has a nice cutback and vision but I do not see any special trait that makes me want him in Day 2. I mean the point of ZBS is you can get productive runners from any RB with good vision, precisely so that you do not have to pay a premium for a quality 'back.

By and large I saw him just taking advantage of huge running lanes. He has decent power to keep gaining yards after contact but it's not remarkable. I don't see speed that will make him much of an outside run threat against much faster NFL defenders.

Add in the fact that it will largely be a redshirt year due to the ACL. I don't really love the value in Day 2.

I like Corrum a lot. His quickness could really be a pain for defenses already struggling to contain Jones. Benson and Irving seem to have a similar style so I'm in on them too.

go pak go wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 08:51

Yoop wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 08:05

RingoCStarrQB wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 07:51

After reading Skeptic's explanation I'm now thinking we need another John Riggins. He was a great thunder back, but he had speed as well and wouldn't need this run blocking offensive line that was just discussed. Riggins could pound with the best of them.

Hard for me to understand why a Packers offense would not be able to run the ball effectively without a superstar like Aaron Jones in the backfield. No wonder our QB sneak plays are unsuccessful sometimes..................we can't run block with Dillon! This is potentially a mess over the 17 game season. So sure, draft another RB.

IMHO we don't have a choice, we have to draft the best RB in this draft class, whomever Gute is convinced that is, or we will watch defenses key off on Love, our passing game rocks because defenses have to honor our ability to run, take that away and we'll watch the passing game flutter, we'll watch our young gem of a QB get smacked up.

Wilson, Taylor, Dillon, wont keep our QB vertical, no one schemes to stop either of those 3, none can hurt a defense, we need more then they have to give

I would tone down on your enthusiasm for "best RB in this class". I don't see many elite RBs in this class. Certainly nobody good enough for the first day. There are a couple of guys I would be okay with in Round 2 but even then I'm not thrilled.

Well in hindsight Jones has been good enough to have been a 2nd day draft pick. Maybe a 1st day. But he was a 5th round draft pick. 19 RB's were chosen ahead of him. I strongly suspect that there is a RB in this year's class that can be a capable backup for a year or 2 and then take over as the primary RB when Jones has to hang them up. The question is whether the Packers will draft him. Its even possible he goes undrafted and never gets a chance to show what he can do.

If you go back farther, Ahman Green was a 3rd round pick at a time when RB;s were more highly valued.

Go Pack Go suggested that the Packers would be better off with another lightning back, a Jones clone, rather than a thunder RB complement. He has a point. But the Packers may have let such a player get away. He only played in 6 games last season but he had a 6.7 yards per carry and caught 6 of 9 passes for a 5.7 yards per catch. His name, Tyler Goodson and he never really had a chance to show what he could do in GB. The Packers kept Patrick Taylor instead and he did basically nothing.

There is a surprise franchise RB out there in this year's draft too. You don't need to draft in the 1st or 2nd round to find him.

go pak go wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 10:14

I suggest studying up on RBs and coming up with names you like so we can talk about that.

OK, but I think there is more to the study part then a quick glance at some draft Guru's top positional 5 chart or a top 100 list

I don't watch college ball which is the best eval, so I'am left to reading what the Guru's think, and that will probably change with the combine, which is when this will all heat up.

my point was we need to try and replace Jones in this draft class, so take a shot at the best RB available.

I think there is something to having a bigger back to win the short yardage and goal line game.

The problem with Dillon is he didn’t run like a big back and he didn’t have good contact balance IMO. Lacy was a big back who ran like it and had incredible balance for his weight. It’s a shame he liked Chinese food so much.

Jamaal Williams was not necessarily a big back but he excelled in short yardage because again he had really good balance and vision which I think is where Brooks compares very well.

I think we have seen 4 years of Dillon and no growth at a position you typically don’t want to resign.

go pak go wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 08:48

We took the approach of "thunder and lightening". I think we need more of another lightening compliment to Aaron Jones moving forward.

Agreed.
Packers allegedly made a legit effort to acquire Jonathan Taylor from the Colts, I think that offers a hint on the type of RB Gute/MLF covet most.
The idea of Dillon is fine, his role was to close out games and spell Jones. The problem he had coming out was lack of vision and that's continued to hamper him even now, years into his career. Dillon also struggles running wide, he's too big/slow a target going laterally- and that's a big part of the outside zone game. Dillon will have suitors, but its gonna be back- up RB money.

Gute also mentioned the concept of using draft picks on veteran players and while I don't think they'll land a Taylor-type stud, they might look at some of the vet RBs around the league who could be had for a 4th/5th. The challenge with young RBs is that it takes time to be competent at pass pro in the NFL - so there's a value in looking at vets for cheap. I think GB will look at FA RBs and guys who are FAs next year as potential trade options. This team is ready to go on a run now, might need to accelerate the RB learning curve.

One thing that I don't see guys here noting... I think that Dillon started this season much like our offense. Sluggish. Out of sync. Seemingly unfocused. But as the season went along, he got better. I'm not suggesting that he is pro bowl caliber. But once our offense got moving, Dillon showed his worth.

That said, I do think a little deeper coaching on him would do wonders. Help him to actively run more aggresively.

Scott4Pack wrote: ↑

06 Feb 2024 16:44

That said, I do think a little deeper coaching on him would do wonders. Help him to actively run more aggresively.

Yeah, too bad the team doesn't have an RB coach or anything.