Rank the Roster 2020: #13

[Pckfn23]

Why isn't Kirksey our top rated defensive player if not top player overall?

Because of the unknown. If he goes out and does it this year you can bet he'll come in a lot higher than #13 next year. This is a fair mark down for the injuries and unknown.

I 100% agree and the reason why I pick him here.

[NCF]

I 100% agree and the reason why I pick him here.

I surprised so many voters do. I figured this would be a much more intense debate.

[Drj820]

I cant roll witha a guy at #13 who hasnt played in two years, that signed with us for cheap because there wasnt much competition to get him, and who the browns were done with. 3 years a long time ago.

[Drj820]

If all this are true:

There is no reason to write him off due to health.

He's notched 11 TFL in a season. He's nothced 8 PDs in a season, which is great by LB standards. This is a guy who statistically was in the upper level of ILB play

whose athletic testing points to someone who should be able to.

He's a good locker room person.

He's called the defenses before.

Why isn't Kirksey our top rated defensive player if not top player overall?

Also if that can translate into this next season, why wasnt there a bidding war to get him?

[NCF]

I cant roll witha a guy at #13 who hasnt played in two years, that signed with us for cheap because there wasnt much competition to get him, and who the browns were done with. 3 years a long time ago.

Well, let's get our facts straight, first. He did play in each of the last two years, but didn't finish the season. Neither is the type of injury that has any long term issues, though, so it is reasonable to expect a healthy version of the player.

Kirksey played in every game in his first four NFL seasons, but injuries have begun to take a toll. He missed a total of nine games last season, two with an ankle injury and then the last seven with a hamstring injury.

The Cleveland Browns are losing a key part of their defense, as they announced on Saturday morning that linebacker Christian Kirksey is being placed on injured reserve with a chest injury [torn pec].

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/brow ... 8-absence/

[YoHoChecko]

Why isn't Kirksey our top rated defensive player if not top player overall?

Because we haven't seen him yet and Z is an All-Pro and Kenny has that potential?

Because Packers fans are emotionally wounded by years of bad injury issues?

Because we're so used to not signing good free agents that we have overcorrected our expectations of them?

I'm not saying he's an all-pro with no flaws. I am just pointing out that the last 2.5 seasons he played, he produced at a level we haven't seen from our ILBs in years (aside from tackle stats, which we all know are meh). He's done very well at affecting the passing game, which we've lacked. He is the ILB we're looking for... just with two consecutive seasons in which he got injured with injuries that rarely have long term impacts on ability.

[NCF]

Why isn't Kirksey our top rated defensive player if not top player overall?

Because we haven't seen him yet and Z is an All-Pro and Kenny has that potential?

Because Packers fans are emotionally wounded by years of bad injury issues?

Because we're so used to not signing good free agents that we have overcorrected our expectations of them?

I'm not saying he's an all-pro with no flaws. I am just pointing out that the last 2.5 seasons he played, he produced at a level we haven't seen from our ILBs in years (aside from tackle stats, which we all know are meh). He's done very well at affecting the passing game, which we've lacked. He is the ILB we're looking for... just with two consecutive seasons in which he got injured with injuries that rarely have long term impacts on ability.

Its an important position, too. We have seen that over and over. We voted Blake Martinez in at 9 last year (despite my voices of displeasure). He was voted ahead of guys like Preston Smith, Adrian Amos, and Kevin King.

No matter how hard I try, I cannot look at our situation now and say that we are worse off than last year. Quite the contrary, actually. We are better off.

I am perfectly fine with Kirksey going in this slot and have not heard one, even somewhat, compelling argument for anyone else.

[TheGreenMan]

Went Savage just from what I saw last year with him on the field. He's definitely a difference maker when he's on. Kirksey looks like he's going to take the #13 spot, but I don't think I can put him ahead of Savage. I'm not really sure what kind of impact he'll have on the defense this year, it's really all about whether he can stay healthy and bounce back.

[Labrev]

I also like Kirksey here. When healthy and on the field, I think he's a better LBer than Martinez -- plays the run better and is about the same in coverage. And we ranked Marty as high as 8 and 9 in the past, due to some combination of us overrating him and not having that strong of a roster.

Torn pec is not really an injury to be worried about. The hammy is a bit worrisome but not a killer.

I can also hear an argument for Savage here but think he needs to clean up quite a bit of his game. He could far and away outperform this ranking but he also might need some time yet, not unlike Collins did.

[Yoop]

I also like Kirksey here. When healthy and on the field, I think he's a better LBer than Martinez -- plays the run better and is about the same in coverage. And we ranked Marty as high as 8 and 9 in the past, due to some combination of us overrating him and not having that strong of a roster.

Torn pec is not really an injury to be worried about. The hammy is a bit worrisome but not a killer.

I can also hear an argument for Savage here but think he needs to clean up quite a bit of his game. He could far and away outperform this ranking but he also might need some time yet, not unlike Collins did.

why would you think he's better then Marty? just asking because when you compare stats of there first 4 seasons Marty looks like Christians big brother, tackles lean to Marty who has 82 more in that span, 512 to 430, and also pass defensed, 17 to Kirksey's 11.

I think Pettines defense will always limit PD for the MLB, in fact Martinez hinted as much with his parting comments, the coverage area is to large to effectively cover anyone tight, so unless you have exceptional cod and quick reaction skills, defending passes will be tougher, Marty had 8 PD's his 2nd season under Capers, 4 as a rookie, so while Marty isn't a great coverage lber, he was/is better then what we got in Pettines defense, under the same scheme I'am not to sure we'll see any improvement with Kirksey, I'am simply hoping we don't see a big decline, saying that he still deserves this vote.

[Labrev]

why would you think he's better then Marty?

Kirksey makes plays behind the LOS that you just do not see from Marty.

just asking because when you compare stats of there first 4 seasons Marty looks like Christians big brother

That probably has less to do with their play and more to do with the fact that... oh, I dunno... Martinez played about 20 more games than Kirksey in that span (lol).

[YoHoChecko]

Just wanna say, I am VERY confused by Jamaal Williams getting votes before Rick Wagner. What gives there? Our part-time #2 RB who just had his competition drafted high at a position where rookies normally contribute... over our starting RT?

I mean, I like Williams and think his pass protection ability will maintain a role for himself, but we're looking at a 30% of the snaps kind of player versus a 100% of the healthy snaps kind of player. And while Wagner struggled in recent years, the Lions made him the league's highest-paid RT like 2 years ago. Obviously, that was an over-pay, hence him getting released, but he's not garbage.

[NCF]

why would you think he's better then Marty?

Its completely subjective, but I think Kirksey is the better player.

[TheSkeptic]

why would you think he's better then Marty?

Its completely subjective, but I think Kirksey is the better player.

Base Salary Guaranteed Salary Salary Cap

Blake: 4 mil 8 mil 10 mil

Christian 1.75 mil 2 mil 4.125 mil

Neither the Packers not the Browns nor any other NFL team that needs an ILB agree with you. There is a problem or the Packers would never have gotten Kirksey dirt cheap. There is a problem or the Browns would never have cut him. He was a good player and the problem is not that torn pec, that was fixed. That hammy is, IMO, a big problem.

[Yoop]

why would you think he's better then Marty?

Kirksey makes plays behind the LOS that you just do not see from Marty.

just asking because when you compare stats of there first 4 seasons Marty looks like Christians big brother

That probably has less to do with their play and more to do with the fact that... oh, I dunno... Martinez played about 20 more games than Kirksey in that span (lol).

when they both played full seasons Blake was better, thats why the Giants wanted Blake over Kirksey, in a base scheme Martinez is a hell of a run stopping MLB, in Pettines scheme, not so much.

[NCF]

That hammy is, IMO, a big problem.

So, the hammy that was NOT a problem last year before he tore his pec? That is the BIG problem?

[Drj820]

Just wanna say, I am VERY confused by Jamaal Williams getting votes before Rick Wagner. What gives there? Our part-time #2 RB who just had his competition drafted high at a position where rookies normally contribute... over our starting RT?

I mean, I like Williams and think his pass protection ability will maintain a role for himself, but we're looking at a 30% of the snaps kind of player versus a 100% of the healthy snaps kind of player. And while Wagner struggled in recent years, the Lions made him the league's highest-paid RT like 2 years ago. Obviously, that was an over-pay, hence him getting released, but he's not garbage.

Nobody left on the list is overwhelmingly impressive. Not Wagner, kirksley, or any of the others.

When all have flaws, why not consider the guy that never fumbles, energizes practices and the team, provides a spark when momentum seems low, pass blocks well, is available unless someone illegally hits his head, and fights for first downs?

Seems like just as good of option as any left to me.

[Yoop]

Just wanna say, I am VERY confused by Jamaal Williams getting votes before Rick Wagner. What gives there? Our part-time #2 RB who just had his competition drafted high at a position where rookies normally contribute... over our starting RT?

I mean, I like Williams and think his pass protection ability will maintain a role for himself, but we're looking at a 30% of the snaps kind of player versus a 100% of the healthy snaps kind of player. And while Wagner struggled in recent years, the Lions made him the league's highest-paid RT like 2 years ago. Obviously, that was an over-pay, hence him getting released, but he's not garbage.

Nobody left on the list is overwhelmingly impressive. Not Wagner, kirksley, or any of the others.

When all have flaws, why not consider the guy that never fumbles, energizes practices and the team, provides a spark when momentum seems low, pass blocks well, is available unless someone illegally hits his head, and fights for first downs?

Seems like just as good of option as any left to me.

Williams could still end up as the #2 RB, or splitting snaps with Dillon as #2 and 2B till we pick all our starters voting in a bunch of rotational guys that are bound to get far less snaps, ehh, Williams is just as average as Wagner, Kirksey, etc.

[YoHoChecko]

Yeah, Williams also is just sort of blah. The offense plummeted when Jones was out of the game; Williams isn't a dynamic playmaker, either.

Williams is Just a Guy, at RB, definitely won't start.

And our starting RT has not got a single vote yet.

This whole notion of players needing to prove themselves on the field IN GREEN BAY before we take them seriously is sort of silly. Yes, free agents wash out sometimes. But if we're looking at the FUTURE, every vote is a projection. Voting for a guy who may play 30% of the snaps and likely won't make an impact and is solid and steady as a role player before voting for locked-in starters is very strange for me--especially at the RB position. Even if the starting RT is average...

Williams before Wagner makes zero sense. Williams before Turner only even makes sense if you're doing so on the suggestion that Turner may lose his starting job to Lucas Patrick or a rookie.

[TheSkeptic]

That hammy is, IMO, a big problem.

So, the hammy that was NOT a problem last year before he tore his pec? That is the BIG problem?

You are correct, my bad. I got the years mixed up.