A 1 is different than a 0. It was specifically said a 0 or head up the center. That just doesn't happen in 4-3, 4-2 or 4-1. In those alignments the defensive lineman would 2 gap from a 2, head up the guard, not a 0, head up the center. In a 4-3 and 4-2 a defense can play a 1 gap style across the board.Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:57it's a 4 player to 5 gap deal, someone has to 2 gap, now he may shade the shoulder, but he is not single gapping unless it is a pure run down.
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- Pckfn23
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Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:53I thought about not using that word too, but you would honestly never schematically line up a defender head up the center with 4 defensive lineman. The numbers for the defense wouldn't work out and you would have 1 lineman trying to defend an entire side of the line. Let's say you are planning to play a 1 gap scheme and just want the NT to take the single A gap. You still wouldn't align him at a 0 as it gives an unnecessary advantage to the center.
ya know why people don't speak in absolutes on a message board? it's not a lack of conviction, it's because someone will come in and point out the miniscule times when they could be wrong
almost always (hows that) someone on a 40 front will be assigned 2 gaps, thats because there are only 4 players on the line in a 40 front to defend 6 gaps, I may be wrong about zero tech face up, but not about the assignment part.
and I watched Jenkins and Green on the nose in those 40 fronts plenty
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I didn't disagree to the 2 gap... I specifically addressed the 0 technique, head up the center. That doesn't happen in an even front.Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:05Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:53I thought about not using that word too, but you would honestly never schematically line up a defender head up the center with 4 defensive lineman. The numbers for the defense wouldn't work out and you would have 1 lineman trying to defend an entire side of the line. Let's say you are planning to play a 1 gap scheme and just want the NT to take the single A gap. You still wouldn't align him at a 0 as it gives an unnecessary advantage to the center.
ya know why people don't speak in absolutes on a message board? it's not a lack of conviction, it's because someone will come in and point out the miniscule times when they could be wrong
almost always (hows that) someone on a 40 front will be assigned 2 gaps, thats because there are only 4 players on the line in a 40 front to defend 6 gaps, I may be wrong about zero tech face up, but not about the assignment part.
and I watched Jenkins and Green on the nose in those 40 fronts plenty
You did not watch Jenkins and Green play a 0 plenty.
Last edited by Pckfn23 on 14 Jun 2024 10:09, edited 1 time in total.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
you have no idea where the 2 gapper will line up, could be on the g or the center, the whole point is that they rarely ever line all 4 in the gapsPckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:05A 1 is different than a 0. It was specifically said a 0 or head up the center. That just doesn't happen in 4-3, 4-2 or 4-1. In those alignments the defensive lineman would 2 gap from a 2, head up the guard, not a 0, head up the center. In a 4-3 and 4-2 a defense can play a 1 gap style across the board.
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I know it would not be head up the center, not with 4 down lineman.Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:09you have no idea where the 2 gapper will line up, could be on the g or the center, the whole point is that they rarely ever line all 4 in the gapsPckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:05A 1 is different than a 0. It was specifically said a 0 or head up the center. That just doesn't happen in 4-3, 4-2 or 4-1. In those alignments the defensive lineman would 2 gap from a 2, head up the guard, not a 0, head up the center. In a 4-3 and 4-2 a defense can play a 1 gap style across the board.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
yes it does, and when I have some time I'll dig up proof that it does, we used unbalanced 40 front plenty 20 years ago with Green, Gilbert etc lining right on the nose of the centerPckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:08I didn't disagree to the 2 gap... I specifically addressed the 0 technique, head up the center. That doesn't happen in an even front.Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:05Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:53
I thought about not using that word too, but you would honestly never schematically line up a defender head up the center with 4 defensive lineman. The numbers for the defense wouldn't work out and you would have 1 lineman trying to defend an entire side of the line. Let's say you are planning to play a 1 gap scheme and just want the NT to take the single A gap. You still wouldn't align him at a 0 as it gives an unnecessary advantage to the center.
ya know why people don't speak in absolutes on a message board? it's not a lack of conviction, it's because someone will come in and point out the miniscule times when they could be wrong
almost always (hows that) someone on a 40 front will be assigned 2 gaps, thats because there are only 4 players on the line in a 40 front to defend 6 gaps, I may be wrong about zero tech face up, but not about the assignment part.
and I watched Jenkins and Green on the nose in those 40 fronts plenty
You did not watch Jenkins and Green play a 0 plenty.
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It doesn't. Green and Gilbert didn't play a 0 plenty, 20 years ago when we were playing 4 down linemen.Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:13yes it does, and when I have some time I'll dig up proof that it does, we used unbalanced 40 front plenty 20 years ago with Green, Gilbert etc lining right on the nose of the centerPckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:08I didn't disagree to the 2 gap... I specifically addressed the 0 technique, head up the center. That doesn't happen in an even front.Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:05
ya know why people don't speak in absolutes on a message board? it's not a lack of conviction, it's because someone will come in and point out the miniscule times when they could be wrong
almost always (hows that) someone on a 40 front will be assigned 2 gaps, thats because there are only 4 players on the line in a 40 front to defend 6 gaps, I may be wrong about zero tech face up, but not about the assignment part.
and I watched Jenkins and Green on the nose in those 40 fronts plenty
You did not watch Jenkins and Green play a 0 plenty.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
Dillon better get really good at STs, really quick.
I Do Not Hate Matt Lafleur
ya they did, my confusion is probably due to Shurmer switching back and forth at times with hybrid 34 and 43 schemes, with Brown at nt in 0 tech on the center, it did happen, go rewatch our loss to denver in that SB, lots of 34 hybrid, which often looks identical to a 40 frontPckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:15It doesn't. Green and Gilbert didn't play a 0 plenty, 20 years ago when we were playing 4 down linemen.
and the same thing is likely to happen with Hafley, it's all about the numbers, there is to often not enough players to fill every gap, you wait and see.
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When playing in an even front/4 man front, we did not play a 0. Schematically it doesn't work. It puts the defense at a disadvantage to the side with only 1 Edge. I am not and have not been talking about a 5 man front. I don't care about a 3-4 hybrid or any other scheme that employs an odd front/5 man front. I am SPECIFICALLY addressing this statement, "in a 40 front typically you'll have at least 1 in a 2 gap set, meaning head up on the center."Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:54ya they did, my confusion is probably due to Shurmer switching back and forth at times with hybrid 34 and 43 schemes, with Brown at nt in 0 tech on the center, it did happen, go rewatch our loss to denver in that SB, lots of 34 hybrid, which often looks identical to a 40 front
and the same thing is likely to happen with Hafley, it's all about the numbers, there is to often not enough players to fill every gap, you wait and see.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
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Packers Wire with an article on TJ Slaton
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2024/0 ... 23-season/
"Consider this: According to Pro Football Focus, Slaton was the second-highest graded defensive lineman when aligning in a one-technique position during the 2023 season. Generally speaking, a one-technique is lined up directly across from or shaded slightly to one side of the center.
The top graded player? Dexter Lawrence of the New York Giants at 88.4.
TJ Slaton was second at 82.5.
The one-technique usually commands a double team from the center and guard and is a key player in the run defense front.
Per PFF, Slaton played 679 snaps last season. He produced 16 pressures as a pass-rusher and 35 stops against the run. His run stop percentage (9.5) was the highest on the Packers defense."
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Packers Wire with an article on TJ Slaton
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2024/0 ... 23-season/
"Consider this: According to Pro Football Focus, Slaton was the second-highest graded defensive lineman when aligning in a one-technique position during the 2023 season. Generally speaking, a one-technique is lined up directly across from or shaded slightly to one side of the center.
The top graded player? Dexter Lawrence of the New York Giants at 88.4.
TJ Slaton was second at 82.5.
The one-technique usually commands a double team from the center and guard and is a key player in the run defense front.
Per PFF, Slaton played 679 snaps last season. He produced 16 pressures as a pass-rusher and 35 stops against the run. His run stop percentage (9.5) was the highest on the Packers defense."
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IT. IS. TIME
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I think Slayton is turning into a fine player, hence my confusion how he's still being ranked against players I don't think are anywhere near where he has played with some not having played a snap already on the official "roster". He's been good and not many of us have noticed it seems.
a big guy that can hold a double team and can penetrate and shed blocks will have a place on any defense. He's pretty good at it for a young guy already.
a big guy that can hold a double team and can penetrate and shed blocks will have a place on any defense. He's pretty good at it for a young guy already.
Last edited by musclestang on 14 Jun 2024 11:55, edited 1 time in total.
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That definition of a 1 technique is wrong. Lining up directly across from the center is a 0. A 1 technique is a shade to either side of the center.BSA wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:48.
Packers Wire with an article on TJ Slaton
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2024/0 ... 23-season/
"Consider this: According to Pro Football Focus, Slaton was the second-highest graded defensive lineman when aligning in a one-technique position during the 2023 season. Generally speaking, a one-technique is lined up directly across from or shaded slightly to one side of the center.
The top graded player? Dexter Lawrence of the New York Giants at 88.4.
TJ Slaton was second at 82.5.
The one-technique usually commands a double team from the center and guard and is a key player in the run defense front.
Per PFF, Slaton played 679 snaps last season. He produced 16 pressures as a pass-rusher and 35 stops against the run. His run stop percentage (9.5) was the highest on the Packers defense."
.
That said, from the same article: "Slaton playing more one-technique should give the likes of Clark, Wyatt and Brooks more opportunities to get up field and disrupt as three-techniques."
I think Slaton looks to benefit the most from this transition.
Last edited by Pckfn23 on 14 Jun 2024 11:58, edited 1 time in total.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
if you don't think you'll see Slaton head up on the center in a hafley front, just PM me I'll wager you we do, put some money where your mouth is.Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:20When playing in an even front/4 man front, we did not play a 0. Schematically it doesn't work. It puts the defense at a disadvantage to the side with only 1 Edge. I am not and have not been talking about a 5 man front. I don't care about a 3-4 hybrid or any other scheme that employs an odd front/5 man front. I am SPECIFICALLY addressing this statement, "in a 40 front typically you'll have at least 1 in a 2 gap set, meaning head up on the center."Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:54ya they did, my confusion is probably due to Shurmer switching back and forth at times with hybrid 34 and 43 schemes, with Brown at nt in 0 tech on the center, it did happen, go rewatch our loss to denver in that SB, lots of 34 hybrid, which often looks identical to a 40 front
and the same thing is likely to happen with Hafley, it's all about the numbers, there is to often not enough players to fill every gap, you wait and see.
this is what you always do, look for any comment that isn't spot on perfect and rip everything apart, well heres your chance to back it up.
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I didn't say that did I???Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:56if you don't think you'll see Slaton head up on the center in a hafley front, just PM me I'll wager you we do, put some money where your mouth is.Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:20When playing in an even front/4 man front, we did not play a 0. Schematically it doesn't work. It puts the defense at a disadvantage to the side with only 1 Edge. I am not and have not been talking about a 5 man front. I don't care about a 3-4 hybrid or any other scheme that employs an odd front/5 man front. I am SPECIFICALLY addressing this statement, "in a 40 front typically you'll have at least 1 in a 2 gap set, meaning head up on the center."Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:54
ya they did, my confusion is probably due to Shurmer switching back and forth at times with hybrid 34 and 43 schemes, with Brown at nt in 0 tech on the center, it did happen, go rewatch our loss to denver in that SB, lots of 34 hybrid, which often looks identical to a 40 front
and the same thing is likely to happen with Hafley, it's all about the numbers, there is to often not enough players to fill every gap, you wait and see.
this is what you always do, look for any comment that isn't spot on perfect and rip everything apart, well heres your chance to back it up.
I simply said that in a 4 man front you never see a NT head up/in a 0 technique. The biggest reason you don't see it is because it leaves a HUGE gap in the front between the nose at a 0 and edge, at tightest, a 4. Gives leverage to the lineman.
Last edited by Pckfn23 on 14 Jun 2024 12:05, edited 2 times in total.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
and he'll be nose to freaking nose with the center..Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:54That definition of a 1 technique is wrong. Lining up directly across from the center is a 0. A 1 technique is a shade to either side of the center.BSA wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:48.
Packers Wire with an article on TJ Slaton
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2024/0 ... 23-season/
"Consider this: According to Pro Football Focus, Slaton was the second-highest graded defensive lineman when aligning in a one-technique position during the 2023 season. Generally speaking, a one-technique is lined up directly across from or shaded slightly to one side of the center.
The top graded player? Dexter Lawrence of the New York Giants at 88.4.
TJ Slaton was second at 82.5.
The one-technique usually commands a double team from the center and guard and is a key player in the run defense front.
Per PFF, Slaton played 679 snaps last season. He produced 16 pressures as a pass-rusher and 35 stops against the run. His run stop percentage (9.5) was the highest on the Packers defense."
.
That said, from the same article: "Slaton playing more one-technique should give the likes of Clark, Wyatt and Brooks more opportunities to get up field and disrupt as three-techniques."
I think Slaton looks to benefit the most from this transition.
seriously now do you actually think nfl DC's pay strict attention to that chart, just because you do as a HS coach doesn't mean they do, your well read 23, good for you.
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Slaton might be, but it won't be in a 4 man front.
Yes, in numbering techniques we know NFL DCs adhere to this naming convention. We hear it all the time in their pressers.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
quit saying NEVER, Quit speaking in absolutes, because we both know never does not exist in the nfl, did you go back and watch what Shurmer did to deal with trying to stop denver in that SB.Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 12:00I didn't say that did I???Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:56if you don't think you'll see Slaton head up on the center in a hafley front, just PM me I'll wager you we do, put some money where your mouth is.Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:20
When playing in an even front/4 man front, we did not play a 0. Schematically it doesn't work. It puts the defense at a disadvantage to the side with only 1 Edge. I am not and have not been talking about a 5 man front. I don't care about a 3-4 hybrid or any other scheme that employs an odd front/5 man front. I am SPECIFICALLY addressing this statement, "in a 40 front typically you'll have at least 1 in a 2 gap set, meaning head up on the center."
this is what you always do, look for any comment that isn't spot on perfect and rip everything apart, well heres your chance to back it up.
I simply said that in a 4 man front you never see a NT head up/in a 0 technique. I am trying to educate you. The biggest reason you don't see it is because it leaves a HUGE gap in the front between the nose at a 0 and edge, at tightest, a 4.
and the reason I said hybrid 34, 43 is because those hybrids make up 80% of nfl defenses and have for ages
no, you don't hear that either, we hear more about individual usage, such as we put clark over here, or Slaton in zero tech, and that kind of thing, no one(that I can think of) does any one thing strictly, they use a over or under hybrid, they use strong to one side or the other, and just because a nose lines up off shoulder does not mean he is single gapping.
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Show my proof that Shurmer employed a 0 in a 4 man front. I can't find any proof of that claim.Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 12:06quit saying NEVER, Quit speaking in absolutes, because we both know never does not exist in the nfl, did you go back and watch what Shurmer did to deal with trying to stop denver in that SB.Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 12:00I didn't say that did I???Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:56
if you don't think you'll see Slaton head up on the center in a hafley front, just PM me I'll wager you we do, put some money where your mouth is.
this is what you always do, look for any comment that isn't spot on perfect and rip everything apart, well heres your chance to back it up.
I simply said that in a 4 man front you never see a NT head up/in a 0 technique. I am trying to educate you. The biggest reason you don't see it is because it leaves a HUGE gap in the front between the nose at a 0 and edge, at tightest, a 4.
and the reason I said hybrid 34, 43 is because those hybrids make up 80% of nfl defenses and have for ages
Not what you said and not what I am addressing. This is what you said: "a 40 front does not eliminate the NT, in a 40 front typically you'll have at least 1 in a 2 gap set, meaning head up on the center."
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."