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Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 10:05
by Pckfn23
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:57
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:23
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:14
a 40 front does not eliminate the NT, in a 40 front typically you'll have at least 1 in a 2 gap set, meaning head up on the center
With 4 down lineman (4-3, 4-2, or 4-1) the NT isn't eliminated but you would never see a 0 technique, head up the center.
it's a 4 player to 5 gap deal, someone has to 2 gap, now he may shade the shoulder, but he is not single gapping unless it is a pure run down.
A 1 is different than a 0. It was specifically said a 0 or head up the center. That just doesn't happen in 4-3, 4-2 or 4-1. In those alignments the defensive lineman would 2 gap from a 2, head up the guard, not a 0, head up the center. In a 4-3 and 4-2 a defense can play a 1 gap style across the board.
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 10:05
by Yoop
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:53
APB wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:32
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:23
With 4 down lineman (4-3, 4-2, or 4-1) the NT isn't eliminated but you would never see a 0 technique, head up the center.
I hate speaking in absolutes so I'd rephrase your "never" to "very rarely" but, yeah, agree completely.
I thought about not using that word too, but you would honestly never schematically line up a defender head up the center with 4 defensive lineman. The numbers for the defense wouldn't work out and you would have 1 lineman trying to defend an entire side of the line. Let's say you are planning to play a 1 gap scheme and just want the NT to take the single A gap. You still wouldn't align him at a 0 as it gives an unnecessary advantage to the center.
ya know why people don't speak in absolutes on a message board? it's not a lack of conviction, it's because someone will come in and point out the miniscule times when they could be wrong
almost always (hows that) someone on a 40 front will be assigned 2 gaps, thats because there are only 4 players on the line in a 40 front to defend 6 gaps, I may be wrong about zero tech face up, but not about the assignment part.
and I watched Jenkins and Green on the nose in those 40 fronts plenty
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 10:08
by Pckfn23
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:05
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:53
APB wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:32
I hate speaking in absolutes so I'd rephrase your "never" to "very rarely" but, yeah, agree completely.
I thought about not using that word too, but you would honestly never schematically line up a defender head up the center with 4 defensive lineman. The numbers for the defense wouldn't work out and you would have 1 lineman trying to defend an entire side of the line. Let's say you are planning to play a 1 gap scheme and just want the NT to take the single A gap. You still wouldn't align him at a 0 as it gives an unnecessary advantage to the center.
ya know why people don't speak in absolutes on a message board? it's not a lack of conviction, it's because someone will come in and point out the miniscule times when they could be wrong
almost always (hows that) someone on a 40 front will be assigned 2 gaps, thats because there are only 4 players on the line in a 40 front to defend 6 gaps, I may be wrong about zero tech face up, but not about the assignment part.
and I watched Jenkins and Green on the nose in those 40 fronts plenty
I didn't disagree to the 2 gap... I specifically addressed the 0 technique, head up the center. That doesn't happen in an even front.
You did not watch Jenkins and Green play a 0 plenty.
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 10:09
by Yoop
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:05
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:57
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:23
With 4 down lineman (4-3, 4-2, or 4-1) the NT isn't eliminated but you would never see a 0 technique, head up the center.
it's a 4 player to 5 gap deal, someone has to 2 gap, now he may shade the shoulder, but he is not single gapping unless it is a pure run down.
A 1 is different than a 0. It was specifically said a 0 or head up the center. That just doesn't happen in 4-3, 4-2 or 4-1. In those alignments the defensive lineman would 2 gap from a 2, head up the guard, not a 0, head up the center. In a 4-3 and 4-2 a defense can play a 1 gap style across the board.
you have no idea where the 2 gapper will line up, could be on the g or the center, the whole point is that they rarely ever line all 4 in the gaps
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 10:10
by Pckfn23
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:09
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:05
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:57
it's a 4 player to 5 gap deal, someone has to 2 gap, now he may shade the shoulder, but he is not single gapping unless it is a pure run down.
A 1 is different than a 0. It was specifically said a 0 or head up the center. That just doesn't happen in 4-3, 4-2 or 4-1. In those alignments the defensive lineman would 2 gap from a 2, head up the guard, not a 0, head up the center. In a 4-3 and 4-2 a defense can play a 1 gap style across the board.
you have no idea where the 2 gapper will line up, could be on the g or the center, the whole point is that they rarely ever line all 4 in the gaps
I know it would not be head up the center, not with 4 down lineman.
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 10:13
by Yoop
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:08
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:05
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 09:53
I thought about not using that word too, but you would honestly never schematically line up a defender head up the center with 4 defensive lineman. The numbers for the defense wouldn't work out and you would have 1 lineman trying to defend an entire side of the line. Let's say you are planning to play a 1 gap scheme and just want the NT to take the single A gap. You still wouldn't align him at a 0 as it gives an unnecessary advantage to the center.
ya know why people don't speak in absolutes on a message board? it's not a lack of conviction, it's because someone will come in and point out the miniscule times when they could be wrong
almost always (hows that) someone on a 40 front will be assigned 2 gaps, thats because there are only 4 players on the line in a 40 front to defend 6 gaps, I may be wrong about zero tech face up, but not about the assignment part.
and I watched Jenkins and Green on the nose in those 40 fronts plenty
I didn't disagree to the 2 gap... I specifically addressed the 0 technique, head up the center. That doesn't happen in an even front.
You did not watch Jenkins and Green play a 0 plenty.
yes it does, and when I have some time I'll dig up proof that it does, we used unbalanced 40 front plenty 20 years ago with Green, Gilbert etc lining right on the nose of the center
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 10:15
by Pckfn23
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:13
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:08
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:05
ya know why people don't speak in absolutes on a message board? it's not a lack of conviction, it's because someone will come in and point out the miniscule times when they could be wrong
almost always (hows that) someone on a 40 front will be assigned 2 gaps, thats because there are only 4 players on the line in a 40 front to defend 6 gaps, I may be wrong about zero tech face up, but not about the assignment part.
and I watched Jenkins and Green on the nose in those 40 fronts plenty
I didn't disagree to the 2 gap... I specifically addressed the 0 technique, head up the center. That doesn't happen in an even front.
You did not watch Jenkins and Green play a 0 plenty.
yes it does, and when I have some time I'll dig up proof that it does, we used unbalanced 40 front plenty 20 years ago with Green, Gilbert etc lining right on the nose of the center
It doesn't. Green and Gilbert didn't play a 0 plenty, 20 years ago when we were playing 4 down linemen.
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 10:41
by Drj820
Dillon better get really good at STs, really quick.
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 10:54
by Yoop
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:15
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:13
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:08
I didn't disagree to the 2 gap... I specifically addressed the 0 technique, head up the center. That doesn't happen in an even front.
You did not watch Jenkins and Green play a 0 plenty.
yes it does, and when I have some time I'll dig up proof that it does, we used unbalanced 40 front plenty 20 years ago with Green, Gilbert etc lining right on the nose of the center
It doesn't. Green and Gilbert didn't play a 0 plenty, 20 years ago when we were playing 4 down linemen.
ya they did, my confusion is probably due to Shurmer switching back and forth at times with hybrid 34 and 43 schemes, with Brown at nt in 0 tech on the center, it did happen, go rewatch our loss to denver in that SB, lots of 34 hybrid, which often looks identical to a 40 front
and the same thing is likely to happen with Hafley, it's all about the numbers, there is to often not enough players to fill every gap, you wait and see.
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 11:20
by Pckfn23
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:54
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:15
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:13
yes it does, and when I have some time I'll dig up proof that it does, we used unbalanced 40 front plenty 20 years ago with Green, Gilbert etc lining right on the nose of the center
It doesn't. Green and Gilbert didn't play a 0 plenty, 20 years ago when we were playing 4 down linemen.
ya they did, my confusion is probably due to Shurmer switching back and forth at times with hybrid 34 and 43 schemes, with Brown at nt in 0 tech on the center, it did happen, go rewatch our loss to denver in that SB, lots of 34 hybrid, which often looks identical to a 40 front
and the same thing is likely to happen with Hafley, it's all about the numbers, there is to often not enough players to fill every gap, you wait and see.
When playing in an even front/4 man front, we did not play a 0. Schematically it doesn't work. It puts the defense at a disadvantage to the side with only 1 Edge. I am not and have not been talking about a 5 man front. I don't care about a 3-4 hybrid or any other scheme that employs an odd front/5 man front. I am SPECIFICALLY addressing this statement, "in a 40 front typically you'll have at least 1 in a 2 gap set, meaning head up on the center."
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 11:48
by BSA
.
Packers Wire with an article on TJ Slaton
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2024/0 ... 23-season/
"Consider this: According to Pro Football Focus,
Slaton was the second-highest graded defensive lineman when aligning in a one-technique position during the 2023 season. Generally speaking, a one-technique is lined up directly across from or shaded slightly to one side of the center.
The top graded player? Dexter Lawrence of the New York Giants at 88.4.
TJ Slaton was second at 82.5.
The one-technique usually commands a double team from the center and guard and is a key player in the run defense front.
Per PFF, Slaton played 679 snaps last season. He produced 16 pressures as a pass-rusher and 35 stops against the run. His run stop percentage (9.5) was the highest on the Packers defense."
.
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 11:53
by musclestang
I think Slayton is turning into a fine player, hence my confusion how he's still being ranked against players I don't think are anywhere near where he has played with some not having played a snap already on the official "roster". He's been good and not many of us have noticed it seems.
a big guy that can hold a double team and can penetrate and shed blocks will have a place on any defense. He's pretty good at it for a young guy already.
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 11:54
by Pckfn23
BSA wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:48
.
Packers Wire with an article on TJ Slaton
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2024/0 ... 23-season/
"Consider this: According to Pro Football Focus,
Slaton was the second-highest graded defensive lineman when aligning in a one-technique position during the 2023 season. Generally speaking, a one-technique is lined up directly across from or shaded slightly to one side of the center.
The top graded player? Dexter Lawrence of the New York Giants at 88.4.
TJ Slaton was second at 82.5.
The one-technique usually commands a double team from the center and guard and is a key player in the run defense front.
Per PFF, Slaton played 679 snaps last season. He produced 16 pressures as a pass-rusher and 35 stops against the run. His run stop percentage (9.5) was the highest on the Packers defense."
.
That definition of a 1 technique is wrong. Lining up directly across from the center is a 0. A 1 technique is a shade to either side of the center.
That said, from the same article: "Slaton playing more one-technique should give the likes of Clark, Wyatt and Brooks more opportunities to get up field and disrupt as three-techniques."
I think Slaton looks to benefit the most from this transition.
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 11:56
by Yoop
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:20
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:54
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:15
It doesn't. Green and Gilbert didn't play a 0 plenty, 20 years ago when we were playing 4 down linemen.
ya they did, my confusion is probably due to Shurmer switching back and forth at times with hybrid 34 and 43 schemes, with Brown at nt in 0 tech on the center, it did happen, go rewatch our loss to denver in that SB, lots of 34 hybrid, which often looks identical to a 40 front
and the same thing is likely to happen with Hafley, it's all about the numbers, there is to often not enough players to fill every gap, you wait and see.
When playing in an even front/4 man front, we did not play a 0. Schematically it doesn't work. It puts the defense at a disadvantage to the side with only 1 Edge. I am not and have not been talking about a 5 man front. I don't care about a 3-4 hybrid or any other scheme that employs an odd front/5 man front. I am SPECIFICALLY addressing this statement, "in a 40 front typically you'll have at least 1 in a 2 gap set, meaning head up on the center."
if you don't think you'll see Slaton head up on the center in a hafley front, just PM me I'll wager you we do, put some money where your mouth is.
this is what you always do, look for any comment that isn't spot on perfect and rip everything apart, well heres your chance to back it up.
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 12:00
by Pckfn23
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:56
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:20
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 10:54
ya they did, my confusion is probably due to Shurmer switching back and forth at times with hybrid 34 and 43 schemes, with Brown at nt in 0 tech on the center, it did happen, go rewatch our loss to denver in that SB, lots of 34 hybrid, which often looks identical to a 40 front
and the same thing is likely to happen with Hafley, it's all about the numbers, there is to often not enough players to fill every gap, you wait and see.
When playing in an even front/4 man front, we did not play a 0. Schematically it doesn't work. It puts the defense at a disadvantage to the side with only 1 Edge. I am not and have not been talking about a 5 man front. I don't care about a 3-4 hybrid or any other scheme that employs an odd front/5 man front. I am SPECIFICALLY addressing this statement, "in a 40 front typically you'll have at least 1 in a 2 gap set, meaning head up on the center."
if you don't think you'll see Slaton head up on the center in a hafley front, just PM me I'll wager you we do, put some money where your mouth is.
this is what you always do, look for any comment that isn't spot on perfect and rip everything apart, well heres your chance to back it up.
I didn't say that did I???
I simply said that in a 4 man front you never see a NT head up/in a 0 technique. The biggest reason you don't see it is because it leaves a HUGE gap in the front between the nose at a 0 and edge, at tightest, a 4. Gives leverage to the lineman.
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 12:01
by Yoop
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:54
BSA wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:48
.
Packers Wire with an article on TJ Slaton
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2024/0 ... 23-season/
"Consider this: According to Pro Football Focus,
Slaton was the second-highest graded defensive lineman when aligning in a one-technique position during the 2023 season. Generally speaking, a one-technique is lined up directly across from or shaded slightly to one side of the center.
The top graded player? Dexter Lawrence of the New York Giants at 88.4.
TJ Slaton was second at 82.5.
The one-technique usually commands a double team from the center and guard and is a key player in the run defense front.
Per PFF, Slaton played 679 snaps last season. He produced 16 pressures as a pass-rusher and 35 stops against the run. His run stop percentage (9.5) was the highest on the Packers defense."
.
That definition of a 1 technique is wrong. Lining up directly across from the center is a 0. A 1 technique is a shade to either side of the center.
That said, from the same article: "Slaton playing more one-technique should give the likes of Clark, Wyatt and Brooks more opportunities to get up field and disrupt as three-techniques."
I think Slaton looks to benefit the most from this transition.
and he'll be nose to freaking nose with the center..
seriously now do you actually think nfl DC's pay strict attention to that chart, just because you do as a HS coach doesn't mean they do, your well read 23, good for you.
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 12:03
by Pckfn23
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 12:01
and he'll be nose to freaking nose with the center..
seriously now do you actually think nfl DC's pay strict attention to that chart, just because you do as a HS coach doesn't mean they do, your well read 23, good for you.
Slaton might be, but it won't be in a 4 man front.
Yes, in numbering techniques we know NFL DCs adhere to this naming convention. We hear it all the time in their pressers.
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 12:06
by Yoop
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 12:00
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:56
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:20
When playing in an even front/4 man front, we did not play a 0. Schematically it doesn't work. It puts the defense at a disadvantage to the side with only 1 Edge. I am not and have not been talking about a 5 man front. I don't care about a 3-4 hybrid or any other scheme that employs an odd front/5 man front. I am SPECIFICALLY addressing this statement, "in a 40 front typically you'll have at least 1 in a 2 gap set, meaning head up on the center."
if you don't think you'll see Slaton head up on the center in a hafley front, just PM me I'll wager you we do, put some money where your mouth is.
this is what you always do, look for any comment that isn't spot on perfect and rip everything apart, well heres your chance to back it up.
I didn't say that did I???
I simply said that in a 4 man front you never see a NT head up/in a 0 technique. I am trying to educate you. The biggest reason you don't see it is because it leaves a HUGE gap in the front between the nose at a 0 and edge, at tightest, a 4.
quit saying NEVER, Quit speaking in absolutes, because we both know never does not exist in the nfl, did you go back and watch what Shurmer did to deal with trying to stop denver in that SB.
and the reason I said hybrid 34, 43 is because those hybrids make up 80% of nfl defenses and have for ages
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 12:12
by Yoop
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 12:03
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 12:01
and he'll be nose to freaking nose with the center..
seriously now do you actually think nfl DC's pay strict attention to that chart, just because you do as a HS coach doesn't mean they do, your well read 23, good for you.
Slaton might be, but it won't be in a 4 man front.
Yes, in numbering techniques we know NFL DCs adhere to this naming convention. We hear it all the time in their pressers.
no, you don't hear that either, we hear more about individual usage, such as we put clark over here, or Slaton in zero tech, and that kind of thing, no one(that I can think of) does any one thing strictly, they use a over or under hybrid, they use strong to one side or the other, and just because a nose lines up off shoulder does not mean he is single gapping.
Re: Rank the Roster 2024: #27
Posted: 14 Jun 2024 12:12
by Pckfn23
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 12:06
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 12:00
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Jun 2024 11:56
if you don't think you'll see Slaton head up on the center in a hafley front, just PM me I'll wager you we do, put some money where your mouth is.
this is what you always do, look for any comment that isn't spot on perfect and rip everything apart, well heres your chance to back it up.
I didn't say that did I???
I simply said that in a 4 man front you never see a NT head up/in a 0 technique. I am trying to educate you. The biggest reason you don't see it is because it leaves a HUGE gap in the front between the nose at a 0 and edge, at tightest, a 4.
quit saying NEVER, Quit speaking in absolutes, because we both know never does not exist in the nfl, did you go back and watch what Shurmer did to deal with trying to stop denver in that SB.
and the reason I said hybrid 34, 43 is because those hybrids make up 80% of nfl defenses and have for ages
Show my proof that Shurmer employed a 0 in a 4 man front. I can't find any proof of that claim.
Not what you said and not what I am addressing. This is what you said: "a 40 front does not eliminate the NT, in a 40 front typically you'll have at least 1 in a 2 gap set, meaning head up on the center."