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I know Tom Clements is off limits from criticism and a folk hero around many parts. But our O has never really clicked since we brought him back.
Personally much more excited to add Luke Getsy back and lose Clements. Perhaps he’s instrumental in early development, but we were so much better in the last decade with Getsy than Clements.
He’s just a senior offensive assistant, but I’m excited to see him having a role working with Love and the WRs.
Love sure looked good the 2nd half of Clements first year back, then the injury to start last season, then a groin pull shortly after healing from the MCL, and he came back and played through that, at the cost of technique, and accuracy.
personally, I saw a frustrated Lafleuer, maybe Clements couldn't get through to Love, could be the relationship deterioted, I thought Getsy did a good job with our receivers, hopefully he can develop a relationship with Love
That was Clements 2nd year back, Jordan's first year.
He was here for Aaron's last year.
Getsy was QB coach for both of Aaron's MVP years and was QB coach already for Love as well.
Rodgers was already elite/MVP-caliber.
And Love looked terrible in Year 2. Rodgers was actually the one who advocated for bringing back Clements in part because he recognized that Love's fundamentals were poor and Clements is great at coaching it. Clements comes in and suddenly Love starts looking much better.
Why is it that Rodgers could see how to unlock Love but Getsy couldn't figure it out? I honestly think Love would have been a bust if we didn't make that coaching change.
“Most other nations don't allow a terrorist to be their leader.”
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
Love sure looked good the 2nd half of Clements first year back, then the injury to start last season, then a groin pull shortly after healing from the MCL, and he came back and played through that, at the cost of technique, and accuracy.
personally, I saw a frustrated Lafleuer, maybe Clements couldn't get through to Love, could be the relationship deterioted, I thought Getsy did a good job with our receivers, hopefully he can develop a relationship with Love
That was Clements 2nd year back, Jordan's first year.
He was here for Aaron's last year.
Getsy was QB coach for both of Aaron's MVP years and was QB coach already for Love as well.
Rodgers was already elite/MVP-caliber.
And Love looked terrible in Year 2. Rodgers was actually the one who advocated for bringing back Clements in part because he recognized that Love's fundamentals were poor and Clements is great at coaching it. Clements comes in and suddenly Love starts looking much better.
Why is it that Rodgers could see how to unlock Love but Getsy couldn't figure it out? I honestly think Love would have been a bust if we didn't make that coaching change.
Getsy left to be OC for Chicago and call plays, we needed a QB coach, Rodgers knew Clements, and liked him, and that's about all we know for sure, and Love didn't suddenly get better till the line blocked better, minus the ability to call plays in Chicago, it's just as speculative that Getsy would have never left
Love sure looked good the 2nd half of Clements first year back, then the injury to start last season, then a groin pull shortly after healing from the MCL, and he came back and played through that, at the cost of technique, and accuracy.
personally, I saw a frustrated Lafleuer, maybe Clements couldn't get through to Love, could be the relationship deterioted, I thought Getsy did a good job with our receivers, hopefully he can develop a relationship with Love
That was Clements 2nd year back, Jordan's first year.
He was here for Aaron's last year.
Getsy was QB coach for both of Aaron's MVP years and was QB coach already for Love as well.
Rodgers was already elite/MVP-caliber.
And Love looked terrible in Year 2. Rodgers was actually the one who advocated for bringing back Clements in part because he recognized that Love's fundamentals were poor and Clements is great at coaching it. Clements comes in and suddenly Love starts looking much better.
Why is it that Rodgers could see how to unlock Love but Getsy couldn't figure it out? I honestly think Love would have been a bust if we didn't make that coaching change.
But what you said is based on nothing other than a few opinions.
What can be my rebuttal, ‘not uh, he’d be even better if we kept Getsy.‘
It's not difficult to make inferences. Love under Getsy did not show the progression you want to see between Years 1 and 2. Under Clements between Years 2 and 3 he shows marked improvement. That doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.
We can also see—with our own eyes—the improvement in the specific area that Clements emphasized. His fundamentals, footwork and such were garbo in Year 2. In Year 3, much better. That tells me one of two things, either that (A) Getsy didn't identify one of Love's biggest issues, or (B) he did but his coaching failed to correct the issue. Either way, it's a big indictment on him as a coach.
It is also notable that Clements has a track record of developing QBs into good players from the ground up. Rodgers, Flynn, Love, heck even Malik Willis could be credited to him at least somewhat. Also, Kyler Murray (OROY), Tommy Maddox and Kordell Stewart.
Getsy has no such track record of developing QBs, he just gets credit for 1 QB who by that point was already HOF-caliber great. Zero success making anything out of a raw young talent at QB.
So it's not that I just mindlessly worship Clements because of some groupthink among our fans or some "legend" that surrounds him. What do I care about them as people? I respect results, and I look at the track record. Clements track record shows good results. Getsy is a coattail rider, like Hackett.
“Most other nations don't allow a terrorist to be their leader.”
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
It's not difficult to make inferences. Love under Getsy did not show the progression you want to see between Years 1 and 2. Under Clements between Years 2 and 3 he shows marked improvement. That doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.
We can also see—with our own eyes—the improvement in the specific area that Clements emphasized. His fundamentals, footwork and such were garbo in Year 2. In Year 3, much better. That tells me one of two things, either that (A) Getsy didn't identify one of Love's biggest issues, or (B) he did but his coaching failed to correct the issue. Either way, it's a big indictment on him as a coach.
It is also notable that Clements has a track record of developing QBs into good players from the ground up. Rodgers, Flynn, Love, heck even Malik Willis could be credited to him at least somewhat. Also, Kyler Murray (OROY), Tommy Maddox and Kordell Stewart.
Getsy has no such track record of developing QBs, he just gets credit for 1 QB who by that point was already HOF-caliber great. Zero success making anything out of a raw young talent at QB.
So it's not that I just mindlessly worship Clements because of some groupthink among our fans or some "legend" that surrounds him. What do I care about them as people? I respect results, and I look at the track record. Clements track record shows good results. Getsy is a coattail rider, like Hackett.
you have zero idea of what Loves footwork was under either of Getsy or Clements, no one here does because we saw far too little of Love in either of his first two years to determine that. again Getsy left to be a play caller, that's a promotion over just OC which would have probably been his job here with Hackett leaving, Clements was available, we needed a QB coach, and Rodgers advice was to rehire Clements, that's it, everything else is you making stuff up to suit your agenda
It's not difficult to make inferences. Love under Getsy did not show the progression you want to see between Years 1 and 2. Under Clements between Years 2 and 3 he shows marked improvement. That doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.
We can also see—with our own eyes—the improvement in the specific area that Clements emphasized. His fundamentals, footwork and such were garbo in Year 2. In Year 3, much better. That tells me one of two things, either that (A) Getsy didn't identify one of Love's biggest issues, or (B) he did but his coaching failed to correct the issue. Either way, it's a big indictment on him as a coach.
It is also notable that Clements has a track record of developing QBs into good players from the ground up. Rodgers, Flynn, Love, heck even Malik Willis could be credited to him at least somewhat. Also, Kyler Murray (OROY), Tommy Maddox and Kordell Stewart.
Getsy has no such track record of developing QBs, he just gets credit for 1 QB who by that point was already HOF-caliber great. Zero success making anything out of a raw young talent at QB.
So it's not that I just mindlessly worship Clements because of some groupthink among our fans or some "legend" that surrounds him. What do I care about them as people? I respect results, and I look at the track record. Clements track record shows good results. Getsy is a coattail rider, like Hackett.
you have zero idea of what Loves footwork was under either of Getsy or Clements, no one here does because we saw far too little of Love in either of his first two years to determine that. again Getsy left to be a play caller, that's a promotion over just OC which would have probably been his job here with Hackett leaving, Clements was available, we needed a QB coach, and Rodgers advice was to rehire Clements, that's it, everything else is you making stuff up to suit your agenda
Lol. I thought Labrev brought up a ton of specific examples to support "his agenda" to hide behind the "you have no idea you're just using it to support your agenda" argument is a pretty convenient and hypocritical argument.
It's not difficult to make inferences. Love under Getsy did not show the progression you want to see between Years 1 and 2. Under Clements between Years 2 and 3 he shows marked improvement. That doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.
We can also see—with our own eyes—the improvement in the specific area that Clements emphasized. His fundamentals, footwork and such were garbo in Year 2. In Year 3, much better. That tells me one of two things, either that (A) Getsy didn't identify one of Love's biggest issues, or (B) he did but his coaching failed to correct the issue. Either way, it's a big indictment on him as a coach.
It is also notable that Clements has a track record of developing QBs into good players from the ground up. Rodgers, Flynn, Love, heck even Malik Willis could be credited to him at least somewhat. Also, Kyler Murray (OROY), Tommy Maddox and Kordell Stewart.
Getsy has no such track record of developing QBs, he just gets credit for 1 QB who by that point was already HOF-caliber great. Zero success making anything out of a raw young talent at QB.
So it's not that I just mindlessly worship Clements because of some groupthink among our fans or some "legend" that surrounds him. What do I care about them as people? I respect results, and I look at the track record. Clements track record shows good results. Getsy is a coattail rider, like Hackett.
you have zero idea of what Loves footwork was under either of Getsy or Clements, no one here does because we saw far too little of Love in either of his first two years to determine that. again Getsy left to be a play caller, that's a promotion over just OC which would have probably been his job here with Hackett leaving, Clements was available, we needed a QB coach, and Rodgers advice was to rehire Clements, that's it, everything else is you making stuff up to suit your agenda
Lol. I thought Labrev brought up a ton of specific examples to support "his agenda" to hide behind the "you have no idea you're just using it to support your agenda" argument is a pretty convenient and hypocritical argument.
hypocritical??? I thought I was being quite cordial
why can't both be very good QB coaches, and predicaments be the main reason Getsy left in the first place? and why we became in need of a new QB's coach? Getsy wasn't fired, he left for the greener grass thingie, not incompetence, and we all know Clements as a successful QB Guru, but he chose to retire, there's no info that I know of that he was forced out, so all this talk that Getsy can't do well is speculative, he did very well as a WR coach, and again rumor mill has it that He might have been promoted to OC right here, except he wouldn't get to call plays, and the reason he left for Chicago, personally I believe Labrev (others) are using the fail in Chicago to paint Getsy as a poor choice, that's like saying Rodgers is the reason the Jets stunk, that's convenient.
you have zero idea of what Loves footwork was under either of Getsy or Clements, no one here does because we saw far too little of Love in either of his first two years to determine that. again Getsy left to be a play caller, that's a promotion over just OC which would have probably been his job here with Hackett leaving, Clements was available, we needed a QB coach, and Rodgers advice was to rehire Clements, that's it, everything else is you making stuff up to suit your agenda
Lol. I thought Labrev brought up a ton of specific examples to support "his agenda" to hide behind the "you have no idea you're just using it to support your agenda" argument is a pretty convenient and hypocritical argument.
hypocritical??? I thought I was being quite cordial
why can't both be very good QB coaches, and predicaments be the main reason Getsy left in the first place? and why we became in need of a new QB's coach? Getsy wasn't fired, he left for the greener grass thingie, not incompetence, and we all know Clements as a successful QB Guru, but he chose to retire, there's no info that I know of that he was forced out, so all this talk that Getsy can't do well is speculative, he did very well as a WR coach, and again rumor mill has it that He might have been promoted to OC right here, except he wouldn't get to call plays, and the reason he left for Chicago, personally I believe Labrev (others) are using the fail in Chicago to paint Getsy as a poor choice, that's like saying Rodgers is the reason the Jets stunk, that's convenient.
You have good points.
Labrev does too. You are dismissing Labrev's most major point which is Love completely different under Clements compared to Getsy.
Hopefully a coincidence but a valid observation nonetheless.
I don’t think either QB coach has done that great a job with Love. Last year was his 4th year as a pro. Even considering maybe his first year was mostly a wash because he was spent a lot of time training for the combine and it was a Covid year was lost he’s still had enough time in the league to improve the consistency of his passing mechanics.
What is so concerning to me is even when he not truly being pressured he’s still falling back on a lot of his passes. To have the skill to be able to make those passes when pressures is great but he gets in trouble when he doesn’t need to and still has a poor base. I would expect a 4th year QB to have that drilled out of him by now IMO.
He’s mentioned it so he knows he needs to stop reverting back to bad habits when in a game. I do think one thing that hurts him is he’s super bouncy in the pocket so his base isn’t set and ready to fire so when he sees something open up. Even an eighth of a second in the NFL is massive.
Jordan can play really well, Jordan can be too lax/lazy/undisciplined at other times and look pretty poor. What is he? He still needs to determine that. He's not been elite IMO. Elite guys have a handful of passes every game nobody but elite qb's can make, the rest are just separated by timing and knowledge of the game, and they all have 2-4 that aren't good. They aren't terrible, just not the spot on target we're used to.
Then there are guys like love. Can make some of those throws others don't make. Has a handful or so that are not good. But they aren't just off a little bit, they're off off and don't quite have the percentage of throws that are on dimes. Catchable yes, dimes, not as many. Maybe this is all he's going to be, which IMO, with a good team around him, will be good enough for sure. He's not average and he's certainly not bad.
But even if most of us can't pick out where the breakdowns are happening specifically, we can see it in his play. He looks one way with his body when he's on, and another when passes are sailing or of target. So he CAN clean that up.
I don't need elite, I need good enough to win it all. Hurts isn't elite but he got the job done for PHI.
Very few QBs have ever been in Burts situation where every single player on offense across the board is a great player. Sure Hurts isn’t elite but his offense has no weak links and his defense kept him from having to be an elite QB.
We haven’t seen anything like that from Packers rosters in the past decade and a half. The closest thing we saw to that is the 2014 offense but the defenses ILB problem was so bad they really couldn’t overcome it.
I usually watch the draft with an Eagles fan, and every year he has a handful of guys he wants them to draft (he is a really good evaluator of talent). Every draft, the Eagles get the guy he wants. And then they also do something like "oh hey let's go grab an all pro WR while we're at it (AJ Brown)". Let's take the obvious pick Cooper Dejean or Jalen Carter. Let's trade down and grab 2 1st round picks next year!
Then it comes time for our pick. About half the time, the obvious pick is available for us to pick. TJ Watt or Pickens or whoever. DeJean last year. And we're always disappointed. A lot of times we pick the guy that my friend was specifically hoping the Eagles don't pick (Wyatt, LVN, to be fair Wyatt has been ok). He always looks at me and says something like "damn bro, not a good pick". Sometimes we trade out, but as yall know, it's usually a fat/lazy injured DL/OL/DB that we plan on moving to a new position.
The point is, I am somewhat close to joining @lupedafiasco in calling him Gutenbumst. I'm not there yet because we have seemingly a really bright future, but I look at our roster and I just get the feeling that Gutekunst is an underwhelming drafter. He knocked it out of the park with Jaire. Love is really good. But the bulk of his work is underwhelming so car. Zero blue chip guys, our best players most years during his tenure have been MM/TT guys or FAs. How much of our success is talent versus coaching? I think the offensive success is almost entirely MLF. We could be a lot worse. I would rather stick with BG, but I think he should be on notice, or just trade away our 1st rd picks, because we haven't been drafting well enough imo.
The point is, I am somewhat close to joining @lupedafiasco in calling him Gutenbumst. I'm not there yet because we have seemingly a really bright future, but I look at our roster and I just get the feeling that Gutekunst is an underwhelming drafter. He knocked it out of the park with Jaire. Love is really good. But the bulk of his work is underwhelming so car. Zero blue chip guys, our best players most years during his tenure have been MM/TT guys or FAs. How much of our success is talent versus coaching? I think the offensive success is almost entirely MLF. We could be a lot worse. I would rather stick with BG, but I think he should be on notice, or just trade away our 1st rd picks, because we haven't been drafting well enough imo.
Let's not just blanket statement that BG is not a good drafter. He is a fantastic drafter....on Friday and Saturday.
Yes he does get too cute on Thursday. That's his only real knock on his resume up to this point.
I don’t think either QB coach has done that great a job with Love. Last year was his 4th year as a pro. Even considering maybe his first year was mostly a wash because he was spent a lot of time training for the combine and it was a Covid year was lost he’s still had enough time in the league to improve the consistency of his passing mechanics.
What is so concerning to me is even when he not truly being pressured he’s still falling back on a lot of his passes. To have the skill to be able to make those passes when pressures is great but he gets in trouble when he doesn’t need to and still has a poor base. I would expect a 4th year QB to have that drilled out of him by now IMO.
He’s mentioned it so he knows he needs to stop reverting back to bad habits when in a game. I do think one thing that hurts him is he’s super bouncy in the pocket so his base isn’t set and ready to fire so when he sees something open up. Even an eighth of a second in the NFL is massive.
This is where you and MLF just say, "Jordan just needs to let it rip."
Jordan needs to step into his throws with confidence because when he does...he's as lethal at it gets. We saw an 8 game stretch of it. We know he can do it. But now he just needs to do it consistently.
Last edited by go pak go on 17 Feb 2025 10:35, edited 1 time in total.
Lol. I thought Labrev brought up a ton of specific examples to support "his agenda" to hide behind the "you have no idea you're just using it to support your agenda" argument is a pretty convenient and hypocritical argument.
hypocritical??? I thought I was being quite cordial
why can't both be very good QB coaches, and predicaments be the main reason Getsy left in the first place? and why we became in need of a new QB's coach? Getsy wasn't fired, he left for the greener grass thingie, not incompetence, and we all know Clements as a successful QB Guru, but he chose to retire, there's no info that I know of that he was forced out, so all this talk that Getsy can't do well is speculative, he did very well as a WR coach, and again rumor mill has it that He might have been promoted to OC right here, except he wouldn't get to call plays, and the reason he left for Chicago, personally I believe Labrev (others) are using the fail in Chicago to paint Getsy as a poor choice, that's like saying Rodgers is the reason the Jets stunk, that's convenient.
You have good points.
Labrev does too. You are dismissing Labrev's most major point which is Love completely different under Clements compared to Getsy.
Hopefully a coincidence but a valid observation nonetheless.
Is it? when did we see Love enough prior to 2023 to say there actually was a difference? seriously, I can't remember that I did.
I think the consternation with Getsy is his failure to impress as a playcaller for two defunct teams of Chi ca go, and that deplorable situation in Vegas, I know that bothered me when this topic was first brought up, that is till NCF inspired me to dig a bit deeper with Getsy, once I did I realized Lafluer brought him back mostly because he sees a bright young coach, that did well overseeing our passing attack as the WR and QB coach, that left of his own accord to take a position for teams he could call the in-game plays for, a promotion above just OC, who wouldn't do that, while most of his NFL success came as a Packer coach, pretty hard to argue with Lafluers success while Getsy was his passing game coordinator and WR coach.
hypocritical??? I thought I was being quite cordial
why can't both be very good QB coaches, and predicaments be the main reason Getsy left in the first place? and why we became in need of a new QB's coach? Getsy wasn't fired, he left for the greener grass thingie, not incompetence, and we all know Clements as a successful QB Guru, but he chose to retire, there's no info that I know of that he was forced out, so all this talk that Getsy can't do well is speculative, he did very well as a WR coach, and again rumor mill has it that He might have been promoted to OC right here, except he wouldn't get to call plays, and the reason he left for Chicago, personally I believe Labrev (others) are using the fail in Chicago to paint Getsy as a poor choice, that's like saying Rodgers is the reason the Jets stunk, that's convenient.
You have good points.
Labrev does too. You are dismissing Labrev's most major point which is Love completely different under Clements compared to Getsy.
Hopefully a coincidence but a valid observation nonetheless.
Is it? when did we see Love enough prior to 2023 to say there actually was a difference? seriously, I can't remember that I did.
I think the consternation with Getsy is his failure to impress as a playcaller for two defunct teams of Chi ca go, and that deplorable situation in Vegas, I know that bothered me when this topic was first brought up, that is till NCF inspired me to dig a bit deeper with Getsy, once I did I realized Lafluer brought him back mostly because he sees a bright young coach, that did well overseeing our passing attack as the WR and QB coach, that left of his own accord to take a position for teams he could call the in-game plays for, a promotion above just OC, who wouldn't do that, while most of his NFL success came as a Packer coach, pretty hard to argue with Lafluers success while Getsy was his passing game coordinator and WR coach.
Yes. But some people think DROPPED PASSES is a bigger problem.
The point is, I am somewhat close to joining @lupedafiasco in calling him Gutenbumst. I'm not there yet because we have seemingly a really bright future, but I look at our roster and I just get the feeling that Gutekunst is an underwhelming drafter. He knocked it out of the park with Jaire. Love is really good. But the bulk of his work is underwhelming so car. Zero blue chip guys, our best players most years during his tenure have been MM/TT guys or FAs. How much of our success is talent versus coaching? I think the offensive success is almost entirely MLF. We could be a lot worse. I would rather stick with BG, but I think he should be on notice, or just trade away our 1st rd picks, because we haven't been drafting well enough imo.
Let's not just blanket statement that BG is not a good drafter. He is a fantastic drafter....on Friday and Saturday.
Yes he does get too cute on Thursday. That's his only real knock on his resume up to this point.
The Thursday draft is the most importantly one. That’s the rookie deal that is going to cost the most. That is the pick that has a 5th year option of control. That is the pick that should be giving you the best chance at a blue chip player.
He has consistently does the dumbest &%$@ imaginable with his 1st round picks.
As to say that’s his only flaw I think he makes some really poor choices in giving players contracts outside of 2nd contracts. Jimmy Graham, Preston Smith, Kenny Clark, Devondre Campbell, Aaron Rodgers, then not paying Adams… the only one actually deserving. He’s gotta clean that up and make better decisions. It’s why we have been in the bottom 3rd of the league in dead money 3 straight seasons.
Love sure looked good the 2nd half of Clements first year back, then the injury to start last season, then a groin pull shortly after healing from the MCL, and he came back and played through that, at the cost of technique, and accuracy.
personally, I saw a frustrated Lafleuer, maybe Clements couldn't get through to Love, could be the relationship deterioted, I thought Getsy did a good job with our receivers, hopefully he can develop a relationship with Love
That was Clements 2nd year back, Jordan's first year.
He was here for Aaron's last year.
Getsy was QB coach for both of Aaron's MVP years and was QB coach already for Love as well.
Rodgers was already elite/MVP-caliber.
And Love looked terrible in Year 2. Rodgers was actually the one who advocated for bringing back Clements in part because he recognized that Love's fundamentals were poor and Clements is great at coaching it. Clements comes in and suddenly Love starts looking much better.
Why is it that Rodgers could see how to unlock Love but Getsy couldn't figure it out? I honestly think Love would have been a bust if we didn't make that coaching change.
Love is a bust. Until he fixes his accuracy and decision making. Unfortunately those are two of the three most important things for a QB
Labrev does too. You are dismissing Labrev's most major point which is Love completely different under Clements compared to Getsy.
Hopefully a coincidence but a valid observation nonetheless.
Is it? when did we see Love enough prior to 2023 to say there actually was a difference? seriously, I can't remember that I did.
I think the consternation with Getsy is his failure to impress as a playcaller for two defunct teams of Chi ca go, and that deplorable situation in Vegas, I know that bothered me when this topic was first brought up, that is till NCF inspired me to dig a bit deeper with Getsy, once I did I realized Lafluer brought him back mostly because he sees a bright young coach, that did well overseeing our passing attack as the WR and QB coach, that left of his own accord to take a position for teams he could call the in-game plays for, a promotion above just OC, who wouldn't do that, while most of his NFL success came as a Packer coach, pretty hard to argue with Lafluers success while Getsy was his passing game coordinator and WR coach.
Yes. But some people think DROPPED PASSES is a bigger problem.
personally, I think it's both, IMO most of Loves poor tech is a result of his early season injuries, coupled with frustration with receivers, some poor blocking, and the switch to run first play calling makes it hard to gain consistency, and as a result poor tech creeps back into his game, all normal imho
you know my motto, think to much, and you end up stinking to much
I’m not sure how anyone can say Love is a bust at this point. He was taking late in the first round and is a starting caliber QB that has led his team to the playoffs twice. That counts for something all while suffering from the same fate as late Aaron Rodgers where he is playing some some of the most mediocre WR talent in the league.
Now if you want to say he’s a mid tier starting QB that is fair to say. He’s not in the elite tier but it is fair to criticize when he’s being paid in that tier.
