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Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 15 Mar 2021 10:34
by Pckfn23
NCF wrote: ↑15 Mar 2021 10:27
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑15 Mar 2021 10:23
It be nice, but Clark, Lowry, Keke, and another middle round pick or cheap FA would be be fine. We most likely need another big boy space eater at minimum.
We can even do without Lowry. Clark and Keke are fine. What I think we need is another Clark (and I don't mean a superstar), but a NT with enough pass rush to create some issues for a DL. Then, really, you have Keke as a true UT in sub and a true 1T in sub and Clark who can play either spot. A fourth guy would probably help balance reps and such, but really, then that can be a guy like Lancaster or anyone else we already have... a jag.
I have little idea what Barry is going to play, so this makes it hard to know what we need. Regardless we don't have that really good 2 gap run stuffer right now. Everyone on the roster that played last year was better as a penetrator. This wouldn't be a guy that needs to play more than 20% of the snaps even. It would be more of the base formations. Maybe Rush is that guy? The nice thing is that these guys will be cheap in free agency.
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 15 Mar 2021 10:54
by Yoop
RingoCStarrQB wrote: ↑15 Mar 2021 10:20
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑15 Mar 2021 10:00
When we look at this Packers defense, and really the entire team they have a ton of star power but almost every position group that is one player away from being a strength. The passing game, despite being part of the #1 offense could be dominant, but they need another receiver. The defensive front could be dominant but theyre missing one more good interior player to make that group special. The secondary is damn near lockdown but they need one more CB. The OL could be dominant but they need an OT. The LBs have been &%$@ for about a decade. I would say the one thing that was elite about this team was its run game. The run blocking up front was great and the backs were all great last year and should carry that forward.
Yeah, we're just ONE player away at six different spots. Come on guys, get us that ONE player we need, six times. For free.
Tried with Montravious Adams recently ........... didn't work either. The 2010 team had Ryan Pickett, Cullen Jenkins and Howard Green along with BJ Raji. That formula seemed to work with outstanding safeties and safety and LB blitz threats to mix it up. 2021 D has a long way to go yet. Stopping the run and pressuring the QB should continue to be defensive priority ............. not necessarily a top over all team priority, but a priority. Can't let statue QBs beat you on 3rd down, or average running backs get 5 yards on 1st or 2nd down........consistently. Losing the line of scrimmage battle is a bad formula for success.
Ringo, that was a stud stacked defense and excellent DL, why would you think a group like that is just sitting out there waiting for us to pick them up, and where would the money come from, the Dollars have doubled since that time.
It's great to think we'll use a lot of 50 front or 3-4 base, but unless one or 2 of that front can drop into man coverage it aint going to happen because we need that player in coverage, sure Barry may play a tad less nickel or dime, but the opposing offenses dictate a lot of that so I don't see that being the case.
just look how often QB's get the ball out in a 2 count, how often do you see even the best pass rush groups beat that? almost never, No imo the way to beat that is with coverage, take away the first two reads and hope your pass rush gets there before he can release the ball to the third receiver .
everyone loves pass rush, yet the best pass rush team last year had around a 30% success rate, so 70% of the time it failed to achieve it's goal, and that is due to offenses focusing now more then ever to get that ball out of the QB's hand much faster then years past with uptempo on schedule passing, course the blue print of all this is the way Brady and NE have been doing this same stuff for the last 10 years, finally OC's started to copy that approach.
saying all this we obviously would like to improve our interior pass rush,as well as interior coverage.
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 15 Mar 2021 17:04
by RingoCStarrQB
Yoop wrote: ↑15 Mar 2021 10:54
RingoCStarrQB wrote: ↑15 Mar 2021 10:20
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑15 Mar 2021 10:00
Yeah, we're just ONE player away at six different spots. Come on guys, get us that ONE player we need, six times. For free.
Tried with Montravious Adams recently ........... didn't work either. The 2010 team had Ryan Pickett, Cullen Jenkins and Howard Green along with BJ Raji. That formula seemed to work with outstanding safeties and safety and LB blitz threats to mix it up. 2021 D has a long way to go yet. Stopping the run and pressuring the QB should continue to be defensive priority ............. not necessarily a top over all team priority, but a priority. Can't let statue QBs beat you on 3rd down, or average running backs get 5 yards on 1st or 2nd down........consistently. Losing the line of scrimmage battle is a bad formula for success.
Ringo, that was a stud stacked defense and excellent DL, why would you think a group like that is just sitting out there waiting for us to pick them up, and where would the money come from, the Dollars have doubled since that time.
It's great to think we'll use a lot of 50 front or 3-4 base, but unless one or 2 of that front can drop into man coverage it aint going to happen because we need that player in coverage, sure Barry may play a tad less nickel or dime, but the opposing offenses dictate a lot of that so I don't see that being the case.
just look how often QB's get the ball out in a 2 count, how often do you see even the best pass rush groups beat that? almost never, No imo the way to beat that is with coverage, take away the first two reads and hope your pass rush gets there before he can release the ball to the third receiver .
everyone loves pass rush, yet the best pass rush team last year had around a 30% success rate, so 70% of the time it failed to achieve it's goal, and that is due to offenses focusing now more then ever to get that ball out of the QB's hand much faster then years past with uptempo on schedule passing, course the blue print of all this is the way Brady and NE have been doing this same stuff for the last 10 years, finally OC's started to copy that approach.
saying all this we obviously would like to improve our interior pass rush,as well as interior coverage.
I don't know Yooper. Here we have this overpaid MVP QB who throws air balls from the 8 yard line in the clutch. 1 and 4 or 5 in NFCCGs. Then we have no pass rush and very little if any innovation with respect to blitzing as at least a scare tactic. Then we have a basically invisible inside LB corp (how many times do you vacate before getting nothing done?). Then you have half of an NFL quality defensive backfield. Then you have almost no consistent ability to consistently stop the run.
Winning the shootouts to go 13-3 in back-to-back seasons looks good on paper as does a first round BYE and home field advantage throughout. Blah Blah Blah.
Then you have a tenuous offensive tackle situation (due to Bakh's sad but true injury). What is going to happen next? They won't let Russ Ball print money.
Oh, and we get to play CHI, DET, MINN, LAR, SEA, PITT, CLE and WFT at home next season. Oh and the Ravens, Saints, Niners and Cardinals on the road.......and Cincinnati. Maybe even KC
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 16 Mar 2021 05:02
by lupedafiasco
Air ball? You mean the option pass that Pazard wasn’t paying attention to and ducked for what would have been a TD?
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 28 Mar 2021 07:08
by RingoCStarrQB
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021 05:02
Air ball? You mean the option pass that Pazard wasn’t paying attention to and ducked for what would have been a TD?
Yes, that was one of them.
Would have rather had Bart Starr or Majik under center or in the shotgun for that sequence of plays.
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 28 Mar 2021 07:26
by RingoCStarrQB
Back to the Defensive Line Watch subject.
Here are Montravious Adams stats:
4 seasons
45 games played
1.5 sacks
44 tackles
3 defended passes
1 forced fumble
Here are Dean Lowry's stats:
5 seasons
79 games played
10 sacks
92 tackles
1 interception
10 defended passes
1 forced fumble
Here are Kingsley Keke's stats:
2 seasons
29 games played
15 tackles
4 sacks
1 forced fumble
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 28 Mar 2021 10:52
by go pak go
RingoCStarrQB wrote: ↑15 Mar 2021 17:04
Yoop wrote: ↑15 Mar 2021 10:54
RingoCStarrQB wrote: ↑15 Mar 2021 10:20
Tried with Montravious Adams recently ........... didn't work either. The 2010 team had Ryan Pickett, Cullen Jenkins and Howard Green along with BJ Raji. That formula seemed to work with outstanding safeties and safety and LB blitz threats to mix it up. 2021 D has a long way to go yet. Stopping the run and pressuring the QB should continue to be defensive priority ............. not necessarily a top over all team priority, but a priority. Can't let statue QBs beat you on 3rd down, or average running backs get 5 yards on 1st or 2nd down........consistently. Losing the line of scrimmage battle is a bad formula for success.
Ringo, that was a stud stacked defense and excellent DL, why would you think a group like that is just sitting out there waiting for us to pick them up, and where would the money come from, the Dollars have doubled since that time.
It's great to think we'll use a lot of 50 front or 3-4 base, but unless one or 2 of that front can drop into man coverage it aint going to happen because we need that player in coverage, sure Barry may play a tad less nickel or dime, but the opposing offenses dictate a lot of that so I don't see that being the case.
just look how often QB's get the ball out in a 2 count, how often do you see even the best pass rush groups beat that? almost never, No imo the way to beat that is with coverage, take away the first two reads and hope your pass rush gets there before he can release the ball to the third receiver .
everyone loves pass rush, yet the best pass rush team last year had around a 30% success rate, so 70% of the time it failed to achieve it's goal, and that is due to offenses focusing now more then ever to get that ball out of the QB's hand much faster then years past with uptempo on schedule passing, course the blue print of all this is the way Brady and NE have been doing this same stuff for the last 10 years, finally OC's started to copy that approach.
saying all this we obviously would like to improve our interior pass rush,as well as interior coverage.
I don't know Yooper. Here we have this overpaid MVP QB who throws air balls from the 8 yard line in the clutch. 1 and 4 or 5 in NFCCGs. Then we have no pass rush and very little if any innovation with respect to blitzing as at least a scare tactic. Then we have a basically invisible inside LB corp (how many times do you vacate before getting nothing done?). Then you have half of an NFL quality defensive backfield. Then you have almost no consistent ability to consistently stop the run.
Winning the shootouts to go 13-3 in back-to-back seasons looks good on paper as does a first round BYE and home field advantage throughout. Blah Blah Blah.
Then you have a tenuous offensive tackle situation (due to Bakh's sad but true injury). What is going to happen next? They won't let Russ Ball print money.
Oh, and we get to play CHI, DET, MINN, LAR, SEA, PITT, CLE and WFT at home next season. Oh and the Ravens, Saints, Niners and Cardinals on the road.......and Cincinnati. Maybe even KC
I love this post.
Except the Packers didn't go 13-3 in 2019 based on shootouts. Our offense sucked in 2019.
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 28 Mar 2021 10:53
by go pak go
I think Jay Tufele is my #1 hope in the 2nd round.
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 28 Mar 2021 11:25
by BSA
from Draft Network...he sounds like a great fit- any idea why he would be available in 2nd round ?
"Jay Tufele typically aligns in the 3-technique, but has also aligned in a 4i and the 1-shade in the exposures I graded. He has very good athleticism, as evidenced by his outstanding body quickness and “get off” on the snap. In the run game, he commands a double team due to his ability to disrupt the protection. However, he has shown instances of losing the football and misidentifying blocking schemes. In the passing game, he has explosive hands and typically defeats single blocks. He will get his pad level high which hinders him, to some degree, but this player is explosive, disruptive, and can play on all three downs.
Ideal Role: He is a three-down IDL for most defensive fronts.
Scheme Fit: Schematic versatility to play in a single-gap penetrating scheme or he can two-gap if necessary."
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 28 Mar 2021 11:38
by BSA
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑15 Mar 2021 10:34
I have little idea what Barry is going to play, so this makes it hard to know what we need.
somebody posted this in the Barry thread, its an excerpt from when Fangio moved from SF - CHI
https://beargoggleson.com/2015/01/21/vi ... ve-scheme/
"At it’s core his scheme is a 4-3 under, but Fangio has made a few modifications that make it unique. The best description of the way Fangio runs his scheme is a 3-4/4-3 hybrid, but I will do my best to explain it in detail below.
As I mentioned earlier Fangio’s Niners appeared to run a traditional 3-4 scheme which is due to the fact that he uses 3-4 personnel, but he deploys them in a 4-3 under scheme. In a traditional 3-4 there is a nose tackle (NT) that lines up over the center and two defensive ends (DE) that line up directly across from the opposing tackles (see above). Each player is responsible for the gaps on either side of them.
In Fangio’s scheme, the NT lines up off the center’s shoulder on the strong-side (same side as TE) and is only responsible for the gap in front of him. This requires a different type of NT as opposed to the classic space-eater used in standard 3-4 schemes. The NT in Fangio’s scheme needs to have the quickness to beat interior lineman off the snap and the strength to hold his ground against double-teams in the run game.
(Kenny Clark is perfect in this role)
The DEs in a 3-4 are normally run-stoppers who focus on occupying two blockers, clogging run lanes, and eventually pressuring QBs if the coverage holds. In Fangio’s scheme one of the DEs moves inside to the 3-tech DT position. The 3-tech DT lines up between the guard and tackle on the weak side and is ideally the D-line’s best pass rusher. ( that’s not Lowry, Lancaster, Adams… maybe Keke)
The 3-tech DT’s responsibility is to generate interior pressure on pass plays and get in the backfield to disrupt the running game. The 3rd D-lineman in Fangio’s scheme is close to a standard 3-4 DE but usually shades the strong-side tackle’s outside shoulder. The 5-tech DE’s role requires the ability to hold his ground against the run despite frequent double teams. If the DE can force a double team it frees up the lanes on either side of him for the linebackers. Justin Smith has handled this role the last few seasons and is a special player who was a key factor in the success of Fangio’s D.
The outside linebackers in Fangio’s scheme have two distinct roles.
The OLBs basically rotate between stand-up defensive ends and run-stoppers with occasional zone coverage responsibilities depending on which side the TE lines up on. The strong-side OLB will jam the TE and then drop back into a short zone on pass plays to defend against slants, screens, etc, or maintain the edge on a run play. The weak-side OLB will move up to the line of scrimmage to be a stand-up DE (4th D-lineman) and his role is to rush the QB. Fangio doesn’t ask his OLBs to cover anyone man-to-man which opens up the position to players who would be considered tweeners in standard 4-3 or 3-4 schemes.
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 28 Mar 2021 11:40
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021 10:52
RingoCStarrQB wrote: ↑15 Mar 2021 17:04
Yoop wrote: ↑15 Mar 2021 10:54
Ringo, that was a stud stacked defense and excellent DL, why would you think a group like that is just sitting out there waiting for us to pick them up, and where would the money come from, the Dollars have doubled since that time.
It's great to think we'll use a lot of 50 front or 3-4 base, but unless one or 2 of that front can drop into man coverage it aint going to happen because we need that player in coverage, sure Barry may play a tad less nickel or dime, but the opposing offenses dictate a lot of that so I don't see that being the case.
just look how often QB's get the ball out in a 2 count, how often do you see even the best pass rush groups beat that? almost never, No imo the way to beat that is with coverage, take away the first two reads and hope your pass rush gets there before he can release the ball to the third receiver .
everyone loves pass rush, yet the best pass rush team last year had around a 30% success rate, so 70% of the time it failed to achieve it's goal, and that is due to offenses focusing now more then ever to get that ball out of the QB's hand much faster then years past with uptempo on schedule passing, course the blue print of all this is the way Brady and NE have been doing this same stuff for the last 10 years, finally OC's started to copy that approach.
saying all this we obviously would like to improve our interior pass rush,as well as interior coverage.
I don't know Yooper. Here we have this overpaid MVP QB who throws air balls from the 8 yard line in the clutch. 1 and 4 or 5 in NFCCGs. Then we have no pass rush and very little if any innovation with respect to blitzing as at least a scare tactic. Then we have a basically invisible inside LB corp (how many times do you vacate before getting nothing done?). Then you have half of an NFL quality defensive backfield. Then you have almost no consistent ability to consistently stop the run.
Winning the shootouts to go 13-3 in back-to-back seasons looks good on paper as does a first round BYE and home field advantage throughout. Blah Blah Blah.
Then you have a tenuous offensive tackle situation (due to Bakh's sad but true injury). What is going to happen next? They won't let Russ Ball print money.
Oh, and we get to play CHI, DET, MINN, LAR, SEA, PITT, CLE and WFT at home next season. Oh and the Ravens, Saints, Niners and Cardinals on the road.......and Cincinnati. Maybe even KC
I love this post.
Except the Packers didn't go 13-3 in 2019 based on shootouts. Our offense sucked in 2019.
sucked is a relative term, anything short of perfect SUCKS, sure 019 sucked compared to 2020, but this offense hasn't sucked for most of the last 30 years, you don't know what sucked is till ya get a decade or 2 of 4-12 season straight, and a blowout win is like winning a SB
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 28 Mar 2021 11:40
by go pak go
BSA wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021 11:25
from Draft Network...he sounds like a great fit- any idea why he would be available in 2nd round ?
I honestly don't think he will. Seems to me there are two guys ahead of him in that 300+ range.
Though Tufele's teammate at USC would also be a great pick in the 2nd round if one of them were fall that far.
Tufele's motor is insane. I love those kind of players.
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 28 Mar 2021 11:57
by BSA
Based on that description of how Fangio lined up...my 2 cents on upgrading the DL.
GB needs a better back up to Clark, too many snaps for him. That's a late rounder or a low cost vet, upgrading from Lancaster
GB needs a better 3T than Keke. Some of those snaps go to Z and others in the pressure package - but GB still needs a better 3T who can handle an occasional double team and still apply pressure. Mike Daniels was an undersized 3T, but had enough dog in him to make it work. It's a really important cog in the defense and Barry had A. Donald in LA.. So that's either a midrange vet like Atkins/McCoy or a 1st, 2nd round pick
At 5 T, Keke plays some and Lowry is the floor, gotta get better there and length seems to be a key criteria. Low cost vet, 3rd-5th round pick
No way you can re-stock it all in the draft, so FA will play an important role. I'd rank them: 3T..... 5T, 1T in order of need / resources expended
Also on the roster: Billy Winn, Willington Previlion and Anthony Rush...not expecting much from any them.
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 28 Mar 2021 12:18
by YoHoChecko
There are a lot of DL I kinda like in this class.
Small schooler Milton Williams is an EDGE converted to interior; still a little under-weight but strong AF and can handle the interior. Learning curve, though.
Jonathan Marshall from Arkansas (which has a good history of turning out solid NFL DL in the mid rounds) is 6'3", 310 and stout.
I like another undersized DL from UCLA who would be right around the late second/early 3rd, but I'd rather wait a bit. As well as some guy named Levi--I forget which school he went to--who is a versatile DL that can play a few different techniques for us in there.
I'm not sure how much McCoy or Atkins have in the tank; maybe having them helps, but I'm not sure they're much more than names at this point. We have 2-3 DL slots we can fill by adding various different body types in the draft, but for the '21 season, they'll mostly be little-used rotational pieces. That could be enough for Clark to get a breather or for Keke and Lowry to feel some heat off of challenges coming up behind them and perform accordingly.
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 28 Mar 2021 13:36
by go pak go
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021 12:18
There are a lot of DL I kinda like in this class.
Small schooler Milton Williams is an EDGE converted to interior; still a little under-weight but strong AF and can handle the interior. Learning curve, though.
Jonathan Marshall from Arkansas (which has a good history of turning out solid NFL DL in the mid rounds) is 6'3", 310 and stout.
I like another undersized DL from UCLA who would be right around the late second/early 3rd, but I'd rather wait a bit. As well as some guy named Levi--I forget which school he went to--who is a versatile DL that can play a few different techniques for us in there.
I'm not sure how much McCoy or Atkins have in the tank; maybe having them helps, but I'm not sure they're much more than names at this point. We have 2-3 DL slots we can fill by adding various different body types in the draft, but for the '21 season, they'll mostly be little-used rotational pieces. That could be enough for Clark to get a breather or for Keke and Lowry to feel some heat off of challenges coming up behind them and perform accordingly.
That kid from Washington is in my 1st pick territory. I think I like him more than Christian Baramore.
Reading scout papers on Baramore is fun, but it's all based on potential which is scary because he is so young. I just don't see why that would be worth a 1st round pick.
Re: Defensive Line Watch
Posted: 28 Mar 2021 15:47
by RingoCStarrQB
Yoop wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021 11:40
go pak go wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021 10:52
RingoCStarrQB wrote: ↑15 Mar 2021 17:04
I don't know Yooper. Here we have this overpaid MVP QB who throws air balls from the 8 yard line in the clutch. 1 and 4 or 5 in NFCCGs. Then we have no pass rush and very little if any innovation with respect to blitzing as at least a scare tactic. Then we have a basically invisible inside LB corp (how many times do you vacate before getting nothing done?). Then you have half of an NFL quality defensive backfield. Then you have almost no consistent ability to consistently stop the run.
Winning the shootouts to go 13-3 in back-to-back seasons looks good on paper as does a first round BYE and home field advantage throughout. Blah Blah Blah.
Then you have a tenuous offensive tackle situation (due to Bakh's sad but true injury). What is going to happen next? They won't let Russ Ball print money.
Oh, and we get to play CHI, DET, MINN, LAR, SEA, PITT, CLE and WFT at home next season. Oh and the Ravens, Saints, Niners and Cardinals on the road.......and Cincinnati. Maybe even KC
I love this post.
Except the Packers didn't go 13-3 in 2019 based on shootouts. Our offense sucked in 2019.
sucked is a relative term, anything short of perfect SUCKS, sure 019 sucked compared to 2020, but this offense hasn't sucked for most of the last 30 years, you don't know what sucked is till ya get a decade or 2 of 4-12 season straight, and a blowout win is like winning a SB
Absolutely correct. Packers went 4-12 in 1988 for example. Beating the Vikings twice was pure elation that season. Tim Harris blocked a punt and ran it back for a TD in one of the games. And had a sack in the other game. We had great cornerbacks that season .......... Dave Brown and Mark Lee.