The Playoffs

[Yoop]

Back to the Kittle thing, I am glad this is being discussed because I don't fully understand the rule.

I count 6 players on the LOS if you include the TE and FB. I don't consider the Tackles on the LOS and we can't see the WRs. If we assume at least 1 of the WRs is on the LOS, we then have 7 which is the minimum requirement.

Are we saying because the tackles were so far off and Kittle is on the LOS that this is what makes Kittle ineligible?

Because I see tackles off the line quite a bit in pass sets so I want to understand this more.

If the tackles are not on the LOS then neither is Juszczyk, so it would be only Kittle, 2 Gs, 1 C, and the WR on the line, so 5. Illegal Formation.
If both tackles are on the LOS then Juszczyk is, so Kittle, also being on the line, can not go out for a pass. Ineligible receiver down field. This is due to an eligible number being covered up by another player(Juszczyk) on the LOS outside of him.

General rule of thumb when looking at on or off the LOS for inline players is that they must break the plain of the Cs butt.

confusing, as long as 7 are on the los and the end receiver on the los isn't considered covered with a non eligible also on the los, which that FB isn't, so thats why I figured Kittle was eligible.

I need to read up on this more.

the Niners los pre set is like a V from the center out

[Pckfn23]

Back to the Kittle thing, I am glad this is being discussed because I don't fully understand the rule.

I count 6 players on the LOS if you include the TE and FB. I don't consider the Tackles on the LOS and we can't see the WRs. If we assume at least 1 of the WRs is on the LOS, we then have 7 which is the minimum requirement.

Are we saying because the tackles were so far off and Kittle is on the LOS that this is what makes Kittle ineligible?

Because I see tackles off the line quite a bit in pass sets so I want to understand this more.

If the tackles are not on the LOS then neither is Juszczyk, so it would be only Kittle, 2 Gs, 1 C, and the WR on the line, so 5. Illegal Formation.
If both tackles are on the LOS then Juszczyk is, so Kittle, also being on the line, can not go out for a pass. Ineligible receiver down field. This is due to an eligible number being covered up by another player(Juszczyk) on the LOS outside of him.

General rule of thumb when looking at on or off the LOS for inline players is that they must break the plain of the Cs butt.

confusing, as long as 7 are on the los and the end receiver on the los isn't considered covered with a non eligible also on the los, which that FB isn't, so thats why I figured Kittle was eligible.

I need to read up on this more.

the Niners los pre set is like a V from the center out

It prevents placing an eligible receiver at center.

[BF004]

Didn’t read all the last few posts.

But you need 7 and only 7 on the LOS.

The two end caps are eligible receivers. If they have an ineligible number, they must report as an eligible receiver.

The 5 guys covered, in the middle, (typically your 5 OL) are inelgible receivers.

So yes, Kittle was ineligible on that formation. Often done strategically, set up overload formations and what not. Typically matters for not on run plays. And frankly good practice to frequently do that. Or have a tackle report as eligible and not be covered.

Cause in the event you want to do something goofy, throw a pass to Bakhtiari, you kind of hope you lulled the D into thinking it’s a big nothing. But I would imagine we had run a similar formation for weeks. Overload right, Bakhtiari reports as eligible, probably Mercedes covered as RTE, have another slot TE, and just pound it over and over, maybe a few normal PA’s mixed in.

The real trick though is to throw it TO Bakhtiari and not Aiden Hutchinson.

[NCF]

I can't believe this was this long ago, but remember this controversy?

https://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-ban ... ffs-2015-3

[NCF]

This is the specific verbiage that made Kittle ineligible.

“Under NFL rules, players are numbered for eligibility. Tight ends and wide receivers must be on the end of the line of scrimmage in order to be an eligible pass receiver. If a wide receiver is on the line of scrimmage and a tight end is inside of him, an illegal formation has occurred because another eligible has covered the eligible tight end. The formation would be legal if the wide receiver would drop off of the line of scrimmage so that he is not in a direct line with the tight end.”

[Yoop]

Didn’t read all the last few posts.

But you need 7 and only 7 on the LOS.

The two end caps are eligible receivers. If they have an ineligible number, they must report as an eligible receiver.

The 5 guys covered, in the middle, (typically your 5 OL) are inelgible receivers.

So yes, Kittle was ineligible on that formation. Often done strategically, set up overload formations and what not. Typically matters for not on run plays. And frankly good practice to frequently do that. Or have a tackle report as eligible and not be covered.

Cause in the event you want to do something goofy, throw a pass to Bakhtiari, you kind of hope you lulled the D into thinking it’s a big nothing. But I would imagine we had run a similar formation for weeks. Overload right, Bakhtiari reports as eligible, probably Mercedes covered as RTE, have another slot TE, and just pound it over and over, maybe a few normal PA’s mixed in.

The real trick though is to throw it TO Bakhtiari and not Aiden Hutchinson.

the play in question had 3 receivers on the los, Auyik, Kittle and the FB, your only allowed two, my confusion was thinking Kittle was outside and the FB inside, which was the opposite, and even that would have been alright had Ayuik been off the los, we use stacked receivers on one side all the time.

being covered, if my interpretation is right, has to do with a non eligible numbered player on the outside of the receiver, but that was not the case, if that FB had caught that pass that would have been a legal play.

[Yoop]

This is the specific verbiage that made Kittle ineligible.

“Under NFL rules, players are numbered for eligibility. Tight ends and wide receivers must be on the end of the line of scrimmage in order to be an eligible pass receiver. If a wide receiver is on the line of scrimmage and a tight end is inside of him, an illegal formation has occurred because another eligible has covered the eligible tight end. The formation would be legal if the wide receiver would drop off of the line of scrimmage so that he is not in a direct line with the tight end.”

sorry this is confusing, we use in line TE formations all the time, and there eligible to catch a pass, so this seems to be saying when we do, our boundary receiver on that side is in back of the LOS ?

[Pckfn23]

Correct. If the TE is inline the WR outside then must be off the LOS.

[BF004]

Didn’t read all the last few posts.

But you need 7 and only 7 on the LOS.

The two end caps are eligible receivers. If they have an ineligible number, they must report as an eligible receiver.

The 5 guys covered, in the middle, (typically your 5 OL) are inelgible receivers.

So yes, Kittle was ineligible on that formation. Often done strategically, set up overload formations and what not. Typically matters for not on run plays. And frankly good practice to frequently do that. Or have a tackle report as eligible and not be covered.

Cause in the event you want to do something goofy, throw a pass to Bakhtiari, you kind of hope you lulled the D into thinking it’s a big nothing. But I would imagine we had run a similar formation for weeks. Overload right, Bakhtiari reports as eligible, probably Mercedes covered as RTE, have another slot TE, and just pound it over and over, maybe a few normal PA’s mixed in.

The real trick though is to throw it TO Bakhtiari and not Aiden Hutchinson.

the play in question had 3 receivers on the los, Auyik, Kittle and the FB, your only allowed two, my confusion was thinking Kittle was outside and the FB inside, which was the opposite, and even that would have been alright had Ayuik been off the los, we use stacked receivers on one side all the time.

being covered, if my interpretation is right, has to do with a non eligible numbered player on the outside of the receiver, but that was not the case, if that FB had caught that pass that would have been a legal play.

I wouldn’t try to think of it that way.

You must have 7 players on the LOS, 4 players off. No more, no less, run, pass, punt or kick. The 2 end players on the LOS and 4 guys behind the LOS are eligible receivers. One is the thrower if a pass.

It is common to cover a TE or have a tackle be on the end of the LOS. Just in those cases, the TE is not eligible, and tackle is (assuming he reports as eligible.

They are generally quite lenient on what they call on the LOS and off of. You will sometimes seeing tackles lined up so deep in line with slot WR, but it’s obvious and uncalled if there is another receiver on the end on the LOS.

Doesn’t need to be over thought. Kittle is on the LOS and is definitely covered by another TE, he is not supposed to be an eligible receiver.

[Yoop]

Didn’t read all the last few posts.

But you need 7 and only 7 on the LOS.

The two end caps are eligible receivers. If they have an ineligible number, they must report as an eligible receiver.

The 5 guys covered, in the middle, (typically your 5 OL) are inelgible receivers.

So yes, Kittle was ineligible on that formation. Often done strategically, set up overload formations and what not. Typically matters for not on run plays. And frankly good practice to frequently do that. Or have a tackle report as eligible and not be covered.

heres something to think about, Kittle catch was a deciding catch in that game, if in fact Kittle was ineligible, wouldn't we have seen more talk about it, wouldn't he have gotten more push back on that McAffery show? I would have to think so, that was a huge play in that game.

Cause in the event you want to do something goofy, throw a pass to Bakhtiari, you kind of hope you lulled the D into thinking it’s a big nothing. But I would imagine we had run a similar formation for weeks. Overload right, Bakhtiari reports as eligible, probably Mercedes covered as RTE, have another slot TE, and just pound it over and over, maybe a few normal PA’s mixed in.

The real trick though is to throw it TO Bakhtiari and not Aiden Hutchinson.

the play in question had 3 receivers on the los, Auyik, Kittle and the FB, your only allowed two, my confusion was thinking Kittle was outside and the FB inside, which was the opposite, and even that would have been alright had Ayuik been off the los, we use stacked receivers on one side all the time.

being covered, if my interpretation is right, has to do with a non eligible numbered player on the outside of the receiver, but that was not the case, if that FB had caught that pass that would have been a legal play.

I wouldn’t try to think of it that way.

You must have 7 players on the LOS, 4 players off. No more, no less, run, pass, punt or kick. The 2 end players on the LOS and 4 guys behind the LOS are eligible receivers. One is the thrower if a pass.

It is common to cover a TE or have a tackle be on the end of the LOS. Just in those cases, the TE is not eligible, and tackle is (assuming he reports as eligible.

They are generally quite lenient on what they call on the LOS and off of. You will sometimes seeing tackles lined up so deep in line with slot WR, but it’s obvious and uncalled if there is another receiver on the end on the LOS.

Doesn’t need to be over thought. Kittle is on the LOS and is definitely covered by another TE, he is not supposed to be an eligible receiver.

you can't have 3 eligible receivers on the los, according to the rules unless I mis understood what I read, you CAN stack 2 TE's on the same side on the LOS, Gronk and Hernandez did it, we've done it with Lewis and Tonyan, but you can't have another eligible receiver on the LOS anywhere, right?

I think what I said is accurate, I agree ya need always have 7 players on the LOS, and only two are eligible to catch a pass from that pre set spot, the other two have to line up behind the center, in 5 wide, the fifth has to designate himself as a receiver, but still can't have a ineligible player outside of him, does that sound right?

there was also something about uniform numbers, like lineman, any player that wears one of these numbers has to designate any time there going out to catch a pass, along with not lining up outside of a eligible receiver

[Pckfn23]

TE or WR, it doesn't matter, in the rules they are indistinguishable. All that matters is eligible number. If you have 2 eligible numbers on the same side and both are on the LOS, the inside one is ineligible. This is why Kittle should have been ineligible.

In high school teams can leave a tackle uncovered, but in the NFL there must be an eligible player as the last man.

[BSA]

but in the NFL there must be an eligible player as the last man.

thanks to all of you guys for the illumination, greatly appreciated
So what happens when you're in a 3 x 1 set with 4 WRs and the WR on the 1 side motions over. Now you have 4 WRs on one side, none on the other
Would you need a TE or RB over there to cover up the OT ?

[Pckfn23]

but in the NFL there must be an eligible player as the last man.

thanks to all of you guys for the illumination, greatly appreciated
So what happens when you're in a 3 x 1 set with 4 WRs and the WR on the 1 side motions over. Now you have 4 WRs on one side, none on the other
Would you need a TE or RB over there to cover up the OT ?

Correct. You'd have to be in an empty set with 3x2 or in that 3x1 if you motion the 1 over, you have to reset and motion someone back before the snap.

[BF004]

the play in question had 3 receivers on the los, Auyik, Kittle and the FB, your only allowed two, my confusion was thinking Kittle was outside and the FB inside, which was the opposite, and even that would have been alright had Ayuik been off the los, we use stacked receivers on one side all the time.

being covered, if my interpretation is right, has to do with a non eligible numbered player on the outside of the receiver, but that was not the case, if that FB had caught that pass that would have been a legal play.

I wouldn’t try to think of it that way.

You must have 7 players on the LOS, 4 players off. No more, no less, run, pass, punt or kick. The 2 end players on the LOS and 4 guys behind the LOS are eligible receivers. One is the thrower if a pass.

It is common to cover a TE or have a tackle be on the end of the LOS. Just in those cases, the TE is not eligible, and tackle is (assuming he reports as eligible.

They are generally quite lenient on what they call on the LOS and off of. You will sometimes seeing tackles lined up so deep in line with slot WR, but it’s obvious and uncalled if there is another receiver on the end on the LOS.

Doesn’t need to be over thought. Kittle is on the LOS and is definitely covered by another TE, he is not supposed to be an eligible receiver.

you can't have 3 eligible receivers on the los, according to the rules unless I mis understood what I read, you CAN stack 2 TE's on the same side on the LOS, Gronk and Hernandez did it, we've done it with Lewis and Tonyan, but you can't have another eligible receiver on the LOS anywhere, right?

I think what I said is accurate, I agree ya need always have 7 players on the LOS, and only two are eligible to catch a pass from that pre set spot, the other two have to line up behind the center, in 5 wide, the fifth has to designate himself as a receiver, but still can't have a ineligible player outside of him, does that sound right?

there was also something about uniform numbers, like lineman, any player that wears one of these numbers has to designate any time there going out to catch a pass, along with not lining up outside of a eligible receiver

No, you can’t have 3 eligible receivers on the LOS. Don’t over think it. You need 7 people on the LOS. No more no less. 4 off the LOS. Doesn’t have to be behind center, simply off LOS.

Those 4 and the 2 ends are eligible.

Every question and clarification you had above can be answered by folllowing that rubric.

And then also yes, both posts of mine you quoted above, I also mentioned if a person with an eligible number is lined up in an eligible spot, they have to report to the ref and they announce it to the D.

[Yoop]

TE or WR, it doesn't matter, in the rules they are indistinguishable. All that matters is eligible number. If you have 2 eligible numbers on the same side and both are on the LOS, the inside one is ineligible. This is why Kittle should have been ineligible.

In high school teams can leave a tackle uncovered, but in the NFL there must be an eligible player as the last man.

what about stacked receivers, or 2 TE's on the same side, we see that all the time, what makes that legal is the opposite side receiver lines up behind center, hense only 2 on the los.

more and more I'am thinking Kittle was legal

[BF004]

the play in question had 3 receivers on the los, Auyik, Kittle and the FB, your only allowed two, my confusion was thinking Kittle was outside and the FB inside, which was the opposite, and even that would have been alright had Ayuik been off the los, we use stacked receivers on one side all the time.

being covered, if my interpretation is right, has to do with a non eligible numbered player on the outside of the receiver, but that was not the case, if that FB had caught that pass that would have been a legal play.

I wouldn’t try to think of it that way.

You must have 7 players on the LOS, 4 players off. No more, no less, run, pass, punt or kick. The 2 end players on the LOS and 4 guys behind the LOS are eligible receivers. One is the thrower if a pass.

It is common to cover a TE or have a tackle be on the end of the LOS. Just in those cases, the TE is not eligible, and tackle is (assuming he reports as eligible.

They are generally quite lenient on what they call on the LOS and off of. You will sometimes seeing tackles lined up so deep in line with slot WR, but it’s obvious and uncalled if there is another receiver on the end on the LOS.

Doesn’t need to be over thought. Kittle is on the LOS and is definitely covered by another TE, he is not supposed to be an eligible receiver.

you can't have 3 eligible receivers on the los, according to the rules unless I mis understood what I read, you CAN stack 2 TE's on the same side on the LOS, Gronk and Hernandez did it, we've done it with Lewis and Tonyan, but you can't have another eligible receiver on the LOS anywhere, right?

I think what I said is accurate, I agree ya need always have 7 players on the LOS, and only two are eligible to catch a pass from that pre set spot, the other two have to line up behind the center, in 5 wide, the fifth has to designate himself as a receiver, but still can't have a ineligible player outside of him, does that sound right?

there was also something about uniform numbers, like lineman, any player that wears one of these numbers has to designate any time there going out to catch a pass, along with not lining up outside of a eligible receiver

No, you can’t have 3 eligible receivers on the LOS. Don’t over think it. You need 7 people on the LOS. No more no less. 4 off the LOS. Doesn’t have to be behind center, simply off LOS.

Those 4 and the 2 ends are eligible. One is usually the QB.

Every question and clarification you had above can be answered by that preceding rubric.

And then also yes, both posts of mine you quoted above, I also mentioned if a person with an eligible number is lined up in an eligible spot, they have to report to the ref and they announce it to the D.

[BF004]

TE or WR, it doesn't matter, in the rules they are indistinguishable. All that matters is eligible number. If you have 2 eligible numbers on the same side and both are on the LOS, the inside one is ineligible. This is why Kittle should have been ineligible.

In high school teams can leave a tackle uncovered, but in the NFL there must be an eligible player as the last man.

what about stacked receivers, or 2 TE's on the same side, we see that all the time, what makes that legal is the opposite side receiver lines up behind center, hense only 2 on the los.

more and more I'am thinking Kittle was legal

100%, without doubt, he was ineligible.

Positions don’t matter. 7 on the LOS, only the two ends can be eligible. The 5 covered on the LOS are not. Those are the only 5 players who are not eligible.

[BF004]

Ok, I will say I was wrong when looking for a good source.

You must have at least 7 on the LOS. You can have more.

But any coveted player on the LOS is then eligible. Thus, if you have 8 on the LOS, then you have 6 ineligible players.

[APB]

Ok, I will say I was wrong when looking for a good source.

You must have at least 7 on the LOS. You can have more.

But any coveted player on the LOS is then eligible. Thus, if you have 8 on the LOS, then you have 6 ineligible players.

OK, now I'm confused...

[Yoop]

I wouldn’t try to think of it that way.

You must have 7 players on the LOS, 4 players off. No more, no less, run, pass, punt or kick. The 2 end players on the LOS and 4 guys behind the LOS are eligible receivers. One is the thrower if a pass.

It is common to cover a TE or have a tackle be on the end of the LOS. Just in those cases, the TE is not eligible, and tackle is (assuming he reports as eligible.

They are generally quite lenient on what they call on the LOS and off of. You will sometimes seeing tackles lined up so deep in line with slot WR, but it’s obvious and uncalled if there is another receiver on the end on the LOS.

Doesn’t need to be over thought. Kittle is on the LOS and is definitely covered by another TE, he is not supposed to be an eligible receiver.

you can't have 3 eligible receivers on the los, according to the rules unless I mis understood what I read, you CAN stack 2 TE's on the same side on the LOS, Gronk and Hernandez did it, we've done it with Lewis and Tonyan, but you can't have another eligible receiver on the LOS anywhere, right?

I think what I said is accurate, I agree ya need always have 7 players on the LOS, and only two are eligible to catch a pass from that pre set spot, the other two have to line up behind the center, in 5 wide, the fifth has to designate himself as a receiver, but still can't have a ineligible player outside of him, does that sound right?

there was also something about uniform numbers, like lineman, any player that wears one of these numbers has to designate any time there going out to catch a pass, along with not lining up outside of a eligible receiver

No, you can’t have 3 eligible receivers on the LOS. Don’t over think it. You need 7 people on the LOS. No more no less. 4 off the LOS. Doesn’t have to be behind center, simply off LOS.

Those 4 and the 2 ends are eligible.

Every question and clarification you had above can be answered by folllowing that rubric.

And then also yes, both posts of mine you quoted above, I also mentioned if a person with an eligible number is lined up in an eligible spot, they have to report to the ref and they announce it to the D.

I'am not over thinking this, you told me that twice, and in order to not be on the los they have to be lined up back of the centers feet.

the rule says only 2 eligible receivers can line up on the los, and a ineligible number can't be lined up outside of them, in Kittles situation that was not the case at all, rather, and this is the catch, the niners had Auyik out on the right, on the los, Kittle in the slot on the other side with the FB outside of him, all have eligible numbers, so there was no ineligible player covering anyone, it had to be about the 3rd eligible receiver on the line.

now, was Auyik far enough back to not be considered ON the LOS?

again I'am not trying to over think this, but I'd think if Kittle was in fact ineligible the cowboys or some NFL people would have raised a bigger fuss.