Yoop wrote: ↑27 Jun 2022 08:09
RingoCStarrQB wrote: ↑27 Jun 2022 07:11
Yoop wrote: ↑27 Jun 2022 06:30
you brought a list of about 35 lbers taken in the last 25 or 30 years and right off the top of my head without even looking up stats see some that struggled with coverage as a rookie, I didn't mean to imply they didn't play all 3 dns, or didn't eventually become good at it, simply said the transition to pro ball is harder and they may get benched for the speedier DB.
there has been such a shortage of lber size guys that can cover RB's and faster TE's that the demand for converted safety's and hybrids has shot through the roof, it's why so many now are the size of Bush versus the Urlachers.
cripes there where a doz articles written pointing out how Patrick Queen struggled in coverage, just because they play, doesn't mean they where good at it, and according to your list the draft averages 1 + lbers that actually stay on the field for 3 dns a year, and our team is living proof that rookie lbers suck in coverage, and it's likely we'll see Quay struggle as well, his pre draft hype says so, I had this book marked, Quay is a boom or bust type as a rookie
Quay Walker (LB – Georgia)
Dean isn’t the only Georgia LB worth monitoring this off-season. Quay Walker, Dean’s bigger yet somehow less physically impressive teammate, will also be drafted next week. He should go in the third round, so his landing spot will determine how quickly he gets a chance to play. He’s 6’4″ and 241 pounds, but he’s surprisingly slim in his frame. His size and build make him a solid coverage linebacker, which is why he and Dean played well together.
The trouble with Walker is that he’s not an athletic freak and needs time to develop. He’s also not a high-end blitzer. Unless he lands on the most LB-starved franchise in the league, he’s probably a year or two away from having significant fantasy value. However, due to his size and college pedigree, he could be developed into the best of the lot. Consider him a solid dynasty bet.
now I normally don't put much faith in these fantasy draft reviews, but the year or two away caught my eye concerning Quay, plus the most LB starved team team in the league described us so well prior to Campbell
so don't tell me to put this to bed, what did you do stay up all night digging up those players, Urlacher, Barnett, really burning the mid night oil, and if you check there coverage ability as rookies you'd find a bunch that struggled just as Queen did, problem is that would have blown your whole argument apart, so naturally you wouldn't want to do that.
I'm scratching my head trying to figure out why Wayne Simmons isn't on this list. And why Esera Tuaolo is on this list. What am I missing?
who could possibly say, I can't figure it out myself, a simple comment of ILB isn't a easy transition ( I neglected to point out the coverage aspects figuring it really shouldn't need to be mentioned in a room full of long time Packer fans) to his bringing a list of about 10% of all ILB's drafted ( very conservative estimate) that actually played 3dns as rookies, and if a deep look was undertaken would show that most of those struggled with coverage as rookies, or at minimum didn't do very well, just another very frustrating conversation with a person who's only goal here seems to be proving me wrong
I get accused of not admitting when I'am wrong, but why would I do that when his best argument is a list of about 30 players taken the last 25 years that actually stayed on the field for 3 downs a series, and without even looking for a stat can name a bunch that sucked in coverage as a rookie, it's apples to oranges, yes plugging a gap is instinctive, many rookies can do that well stopping a RB, coverages is a more mental thing, first they have to recognize who they are responsible to cover, then react properly to accomplish the feat.
anyone with a lic of common sense knows that is more difficult, specially after we have seen sooooo many fail over the last couple decades right here with our team.
I can't remember so well Ringo, was Wayne Simmons a super duper coverage specialist
Almost all rookies struggle with something. I'd be surprised if Quay doesn't at times struggle vs the run, while blitzing AND in coverage. Because he's a rookie.
That doesn't mean ILB isn't one of the easiest transitions. It is. I actually used to believe in the same theory as you, yoop. Sounds logical. But then I looked at how many ILBs do rather well as rookies, even those who are not good at coverage as rookies.
That is because, for me,
inside linebacker is not the same as coverage linebacker. Even in this day and age, coverage is not the primary ability of an ILB. Playing the run is that position's break and butter - it's why you field an ILB instead of an extra CB or S - and adjusting to play the run is one of the easiest transitions.
A "coverage linebacker", for me, is a 3rd down specialist, usually a light and quick LB/S hybrid, who would not play early downs due to sucking vs the run. And I can agree that would be a tough transition for a rookie. But it's not the same as an inside linebacker.
The very toughest transitions are at positions where the
primary ability IS the tough transition, not some secondary or bonus skill.
pass rushers usually struggle with
pass rushing vs NFL OTs. Rookie QBs usually struggle with throwing the ball, Rookie corners usually struggle at coverage vs NFL WRs. Rookie WRs usually struggle with getting open vs NFL corners. Rookie DL struggle vs double teams vs the run. The toughest transition I feel is TE, where both blocking and receiving are primary abilities, and both are tough vs NFL competition.
Your claim that most rookie ILBs struggle in coverage is true. But to me, it's the same as saying "most rookie corners struggle in run support", which is true. But if a rookie corner is good at coverage, no one cares if they suck vs the run. See: Stokes. Or "most rookie pass rushers aren't great run stuffers"...yup, but so what? Most rookie RBs struggle at blitz pickup, which is true, but can still produce more easily than most positions because their primary function is to run the ball, and that's an easy transition. In fact, I think you lobbied for Aaron Jones to be used more as a rookie, even when he suuuuucked at picking up the pass rush (and wasn't much of a receiver), because you cared about the primary ability: Rushing.
Of course, the holy grail of ILBs is an all-around great, 3-down ILB. And those sure are rare as rookies....
because they are rare overall. There are only a dozen-ish really good all-around veterans in the league. I actually think this whole debate stems from you thinking "the only good ILBs are 3-down ILBs", while I and most others seem to think an ILB can have a fine season without having a great season in coverage.
I personally think Quay Walker could have what I'd call a good rookie season even if he's not good at coverage, and is pulled off the field in all passing situations. IF he can excel at stuffing the run, and is not an utter catastrophe vs the pass, that would count as a good rookie season for an ILB for me.
none of that BS ever made a lick of sense to me.
kidding