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Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 08:20
by Pckfn23
go pak go wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 08:17
I couldn't dislike a game tape any more.
It is the antithesis of what LaFleur was emphasizing when we hired Barry.
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 08:40
by go pak go
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 08:20
go pak go wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 08:17
I couldn't dislike a game tape any more.
It is the antithesis of what LaFleur was emphasizing when we hired Barry.
It just honestly makes no sense to me.
Like from a pure "chance" and statistical standpoint, the strategy makes no sense.
The whole thought is to not give up a big play because you don't want them to score easily. Essentially you want them to get inside the 20 and then squeeze the field to force them out of the EZ or win the 2 pt. conversion. But that reasoning is so flawed to me.
Playing soft and letting them inside the 20 increases the chance of loss in my mind because you are effectively putting the game on a maximum 5 plays (4 down series and the 2 point conversion).
Instead, put the game on MORE plays. Make their life miserable when at the 10 yardline. Make them earn each yard. Force them into a mistake. If they bust one, they bust one but the end result is still the same! The game still hinges on a 2 pt conversion AND we still have time available to get a FG.
The Packers strategy in my eyes gave us LESS chances to win the game than if they went for it. I hate it so, so much.
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 08:46
by Pckfn23
go pak go wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 08:40
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 08:20
go pak go wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 08:17
I couldn't dislike a game tape any more.
It is the antithesis of what LaFleur was emphasizing when we hired Barry.
It just honestly makes no sense to me.
Like from a pure "chance" and statistical standpoint, the strategy makes no sense.
The whole thought is to not give up a big play because you don't want them to score easily. Essentially you want them to get inside the 20 and then squeeze the field to force them out of the EZ or win the 2 pt. conversion. But that reasoning is so flawed to me.
Playing soft and letting them inside the 20 increases the chance of loss in my mind because you are effectively putting the game on a maximum 5 plays (4 down series and the 2 point conversion).
Instead, put the game on MORE plays. Make their life miserable when at the 10 yardline. Make them earn each yard. Force them into a mistake. If they bust one, they bust one but the end result is still the same! The game still hinges on a 2 pt conversion AND we still have time available to get a FG.
The Packers strategy in my eyes gave us LESS chances to win the game than if they went for it. I hate it so, so much.
Especially when you consider it is Tom Brady who can't really force it down the field and will dink and dunk all day long because that is what he does well.
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 11:19
by Drj820
They also didn’t have any receivers in the game that should demand that much respect
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 12:15
by Yoop
here we go again with forum members thinking they know more then actual NFL coaches, and to my knowledge, only 23 has a resume that shows he's been a pee wee's league defensive assistent
the goal with prevent is obvious, cause the opposing offense to use short passes hoping to stop yac and burn down the clock, which most of the time it accomplishes, we all hate it, but it works far more often then it fails, and those odds are in favor of it's use.
Dom Capers abused those odds and it killed us, but then ya have to look at the HC concerning that stuff too, Mike McCarthy was the definition of ultra conservatism, and we still see the results of that (sometimes good, often bad) with Aaron Rodgers, playing conservative kept the NFL in small ball till Coryell introduced the wide open spread passing attack.
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 12:26
by AmishMafia
Yoop wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 12:15
here we go again with forum members thinking they know more then actual NFL coaches, and to my knowledge, only 23 has a resume that shows he's been a pee wee's league defensive assistent
the goal with prevent is obvious, cause the opposing offense to use short passes hoping to stop yac and burn down the clock, which most of the time it accomplishes, we all hate it, but it works far more often then it fails, and those odds are in favor of it's use.
Dom Capers abused those odds and it killed us, but then ya have to look at the HC concerning that stuff too, Mike McCarthy was the definition of ultra conservatism, and we still see the results of that (sometimes good, often bad) with Aaron Rodgers, playing conservative kept the NFL in small ball till Coryell introduced the wide open spread passing attack.
Then why not use it all game?
Had there been 30 seconds on the clock it would have been fine. But there was over 2 mins. Enough time to dink and dunk their way down the field and score. Which they did. Then we lucked out on the delay of game penalty or the run may conversion may have worked.
The defense held all game and Brady's deepball ability and the receiver capability were both questionable
And the secondary, even without Jaire, is still a strength.
It seemed like everything pointed to keeping the rush pressure up and force Bradys arm and their receivers speed to beat us. Force that Buc online to hold off Gary, clark and company long enough for the receivers to get deep and open. I would take that matchup all day - I believe we win it 95 times out of a hundred. Letting them drive down the field and getting into the red zone - I believe the odds are much better for the Bucs.
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 12:42
by Acrobat
AmishMafia wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 12:26
Yoop wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 12:15
here we go again with forum members thinking they know more then actual NFL coaches, and to my knowledge, only 23 has a resume that shows he's been a pee wee's league defensive assistent
the goal with prevent is obvious, cause the opposing offense to use short passes hoping to stop yac and burn down the clock, which most of the time it accomplishes, we all hate it, but it works far more often then it fails, and those odds are in favor of it's use.
Dom Capers abused those odds and it killed us, but then ya have to look at the HC concerning that stuff too, Mike McCarthy was the definition of ultra conservatism, and we still see the results of that (sometimes good, often bad) with Aaron Rodgers, playing conservative kept the NFL in small ball till Coryell introduced the wide open spread passing attack.
Then why not use it all game?
Had there been 30 seconds on the clock it would have been fine. But there was over 2 mins. Enough time to dink and dunk their way down the field and score. Which they did. Then we lucked out on the delay of game penalty or the run may conversion may have worked.
The defense held all game and Brady's deepball ability and the receiver capability were both questionable
And the secondary, even without Jaire, is still a strength.
It seemed like everything pointed to keeping the rush pressure up and force Bradys arm and their receivers speed to beat us. Force that Buc online to hold off Gary, clark and company long enough for the receivers to get deep and open. I would take that matchup all day - I believe we win it 95 times out of a hundred. Letting them drive down the field and getting into the red zone - I believe the odds are much better for the Bucs.
Agreed. Plus, let's say the worst case scenario happens and Brady throws a 60 yard bomb for a TD with 1 minute left. Then Rodgers has a whole minute to drive the team down for a game winning FG.
The Prevent can be effective sometimes, but it's situational. In this case, I would have rather kept the pressure on knowing that if they get something over the top, which they hadn't done all game, we have the time to close it out.
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 13:06
by Scott4Pack
I would just like to see some stats about how often the “prevent” defense fails, or not. Maybe 23 already has that?
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 13:06
by Pckfn23
Ya there was nothing about the game scenario at that time that pointed to prevent being the route to go.
3:04 remaining. 1 timeout. The 2 minute warning. Needed 89 yards to score. Tom Brady had only completed 1 pass over 10 yards down the field until that point and it was the first play of the game.
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 14:37
by Yoop
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 13:06
Ya there was nothing about the game scenario at that time that pointed to prevent being the route to go.
3:04 remaining. 1 timeout. The 2 minute warning. Needed 89 yards to score. Tom Brady had only completed 1 pass over 10 yards down the field until that point and it was the first play of the game.
forgot that there was that much time, I do agree we did a poor job of it, to much cushion allowed yrds after the catch and Fournettes 18 yarder killed us, we should have just stuck with some variation of 2 high safety coverage.
but when ya look around the league plenty of defenses play prevent in the same scenario.
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 14:42
by Yoop
Acrobat wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 12:42
AmishMafia wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 12:26
Yoop wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 12:15
here we go again with forum members thinking they know more then actual NFL coaches, and to my knowledge, only 23 has a resume that shows he's been a pee wee's league defensive assistent
the goal with prevent is obvious, cause the opposing offense to use short passes hoping to stop yac and burn down the clock, which most of the time it accomplishes, we all hate it, but it works far more often then it fails, and those odds are in favor of it's use.
Dom Capers abused those odds and it killed us, but then ya have to look at the HC concerning that stuff too, Mike McCarthy was the definition of ultra conservatism, and we still see the results of that (sometimes good, often bad) with Aaron Rodgers, playing conservative kept the NFL in small ball till Coryell introduced the wide open spread passing attack.
Then why not use it all game?
Had there been 30 seconds on the clock it would have been fine. But there was over 2 mins. Enough time to dink and dunk their way down the field and score. Which they did. Then we lucked out on the delay of game penalty or the run may conversion may have worked.
The defense held all game and Brady's deepball ability and the receiver capability were both questionable
And the secondary, even without Jaire, is still a strength.
It seemed like everything pointed to keeping the rush pressure up and force Bradys arm and their receivers speed to beat us. Force that Buc online to hold off Gary, clark and company long enough for the receivers to get deep and open. I would take that matchup all day - I believe we win it 95 times out of a hundred. Letting them drive down the field and getting into the red zone - I believe the odds are much better for the Bucs.
Agreed. Plus, let's say the worst case scenario happens and Brady throws a 60 yard bomb for a TD with 1 minute left. Then Rodgers has a whole minute to drive the team down for a game winning FG.
The Prevent can be effective sometimes, but it's situational. In this case, I would have rather kept the pressure on knowing that if they get something over the top, which they hadn't done all game, we have the time to close it out.
not sure about that time for us to close it out, we hadn't closed anything out in 30 minutes, so that was certainly anything but a hope and a prayer, we played poorly at prevent, we allowed Brady to complete 6 passes, one for the TD
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 14:53
by Acrobat
Yoop wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 14:42
Acrobat wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 12:42
AmishMafia wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 12:26
Then why not use it all game?
Had there been 30 seconds on the clock it would have been fine. But there was over 2 mins. Enough time to dink and dunk their way down the field and score. Which they did. Then we lucked out on the delay of game penalty or the run may conversion may have worked.
The defense held all game and Brady's deepball ability and the receiver capability were both questionable
And the secondary, even without Jaire, is still a strength.
It seemed like everything pointed to keeping the rush pressure up and force Bradys arm and their receivers speed to beat us. Force that Buc online to hold off Gary, clark and company long enough for the receivers to get deep and open. I would take that matchup all day - I believe we win it 95 times out of a hundred. Letting them drive down the field and getting into the red zone - I believe the odds are much better for the Bucs.
Agreed. Plus, let's say the worst case scenario happens and Brady throws a 60 yard bomb for a TD with 1 minute left. Then Rodgers has a whole minute to drive the team down for a game winning FG.
The Prevent can be effective sometimes, but it's situational. In this case, I would have rather kept the pressure on knowing that if they get something over the top, which they hadn't done all game, we have the time to close it out.
not sure about that time for us to close it out, we hadn't closed anything out in 30 minutes, so that was certainly anything but a hope and a prayer, we played poorly at prevent, we allowed Brady to complete 6 passes, one for the TD
Maybe we could have banked on Tampa also playing Prevent.
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 14:55
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 14:42
Acrobat wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 12:42
AmishMafia wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 12:26
Then why not use it all game?
Had there been 30 seconds on the clock it would have been fine. But there was over 2 mins. Enough time to dink and dunk their way down the field and score. Which they did. Then we lucked out on the delay of game penalty or the run may conversion may have worked.
The defense held all game and Brady's deepball ability and the receiver capability were both questionable
And the secondary, even without Jaire, is still a strength.
It seemed like everything pointed to keeping the rush pressure up and force Bradys arm and their receivers speed to beat us. Force that Buc online to hold off Gary, clark and company long enough for the receivers to get deep and open. I would take that matchup all day - I believe we win it 95 times out of a hundred. Letting them drive down the field and getting into the red zone - I believe the odds are much better for the Bucs.
Agreed. Plus, let's say the worst case scenario happens and Brady throws a 60 yard bomb for a TD with 1 minute left. Then Rodgers has a whole minute to drive the team down for a game winning FG.
The Prevent can be effective sometimes, but it's situational. In this case, I would have rather kept the pressure on knowing that if they get something over the top, which they hadn't done all game, we have the time to close it out.
not sure about that time for us to close it out, we hadn't closed anything out in 30 minutes, so that was certainly anything but a hope and a prayer, we played poorly at prevent, we allowed Brady to complete 6 passes, one for the TD
I mean that is very definition of prevent defense. You are giving them "gimme" completions until you squeeze the field in the RZ.
Playing prevent defense essentially is betting you can stop the opponent from getting in the EZ with 1st and 10 between the 10 and 20 yardline AND preventing the 2 point conversion.
We fortunately did that. But me personally, I would have rather made it harder 90 yards away from the EZ rather than try to tighten the screws 15 yards away. It's just a lot easier for one leak or missed assignment or good offensive play to really bite you from a closer distance. It also allows a big back to be more effective.
Even though the odds of our offense responding to a tie game is minimal, it's still greater than 0 which is effecitvely what our prevent style of defense put us in.
I just hated it in that situation.
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 14:59
by Acrobat
go pak go wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 14:55
Yoop wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 14:42
Acrobat wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 12:42
Agreed. Plus, let's say the worst case scenario happens and Brady throws a 60 yard bomb for a TD with 1 minute left. Then Rodgers has a whole minute to drive the team down for a game winning FG.
The Prevent can be effective sometimes, but it's situational. In this case, I would have rather kept the pressure on knowing that if they get something over the top, which they hadn't done all game, we have the time to close it out.
not sure about that time for us to close it out, we hadn't closed anything out in 30 minutes, so that was certainly anything but a hope and a prayer, we played poorly at prevent, we allowed Brady to complete 6 passes, one for the TD
I mean that is very definition of prevent defense. You are giving them "gimme" completions until you squeeze the field in the RZ.
Playing prevent defense essentially is betting you can stop the opponent from getting in the EZ with 1st and 10 between the 10 and 20 yardline AND preventing the 2 point conversion.
We fortunately did that. But me personally, I would have rather made it harder 90 yards away from the EZ rather than try to tighten the screws 15 yards away. It's just a lot easier for one leak or missed assignment or good offensive play to really bite you from a closer distance. It also allows a big back to be more effective.
Even though the odds of our offense responding to a tie game is minimal, it's still greater than 0 which is effecitvely what our prevent style of defense put us in.
I just hated it in that situation.
It's also expecting a lot from the defense to hold up on a long drive in that heat.
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 15:24
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 14:55
I mean that is very definition of prevent defense. You are giving them "gimme" completions until you squeeze the field in the RZ.
just because we failed at causing a costly mistake then giving up a TD pass and the big gainer to Fournette doesn't mean the prevent is a poor decision, we simply failed to execute it well.
I deleted the game from my dvd, wish I'd have waited to rewatch those last 3 minutes, if memory serves we gave up two side line passes that stopped the clock, and 3 first downers, that is not the goal of prevent, neither is allowing them in the red zone, we basically f'd up the whole process.
thanks to super coverage on that 2 point and we got a win.
I had little faith in our chances if it had went to OT.
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 15:31
by Yoop
Acrobat wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 14:59
go pak go wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 14:55
Yoop wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 14:42
not sure about that time for us to close it out, we hadn't closed anything out in 30 minutes, so that was certainly anything but a hope and a prayer, we played poorly at prevent, we allowed Brady to complete 6 passes, one for the TD
I mean that is very definition of prevent defense. You are giving them "gimme" completions until you squeeze the field in the RZ.
Playing prevent defense essentially is betting you can stop the opponent from getting in the EZ with 1st and 10 between the 10 and 20 yardline AND preventing the 2 point conversion.
We fortunately did that. But me personally, I would have rather made it harder 90 yards away from the EZ rather than try to tighten the screws 15 yards away. It's just a lot easier for one leak or missed assignment or good offensive play to really bite you from a closer distance. It also allows a big back to be more effective.
Even though the odds of our offense responding to a tie game is minimal, it's still greater than 0 which is effecitvely what our prevent style of defense put us in.
I just hated it in that situation.
It's also expecting a lot from the defense to hold up on a long drive in that heat.
actually I think it takes more exertion to play normal scheme then prevention, attacking is strenuous, sitting back and letting the play come to ya preserves energy, in fact the heat may have been one reason Barry checked into it, and I'd wager it's why you see teams revert to it during mid part of games.
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 15:57
by Acrobat
Yoop wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 15:31
Acrobat wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 14:59
go pak go wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 14:55
I mean that is very definition of prevent defense. You are giving them "gimme" completions until you squeeze the field in the RZ.
Playing prevent defense essentially is betting you can stop the opponent from getting in the EZ with 1st and 10 between the 10 and 20 yardline AND preventing the 2 point conversion.
We fortunately did that. But me personally, I would have rather made it harder 90 yards away from the EZ rather than try to tighten the screws 15 yards away. It's just a lot easier for one leak or missed assignment or good offensive play to really bite you from a closer distance. It also allows a big back to be more effective.
Even though the odds of our offense responding to a tie game is minimal, it's still greater than 0 which is effecitvely what our prevent style of defense put us in.
I just hated it in that situation.
It's also expecting a lot from the defense to hold up on a long drive in that heat.
actually I think it takes more exertion to play normal scheme then prevention, attacking is strenuous, sitting back and letting the play come to ya preserves energy, in fact the heat may have been one reason Barry checked into it, and I'd wager it's why you see teams revert to it during mid part of games.
I highly doubt that with the game on the line, Barry thought "Let's give these guys a little bit of a breather".
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 19:32
by Realist
Mindless back and forth is always entertaining. Looks like yoop has a new sparring partner.
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 27 Sep 2022 22:09
by APB
Yoop wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 12:15
here we go again with forum members thinking they know more then actual NFL coaches, and to my knowledge, only 23 has a resume that shows he's been a pee wee's league defensive assistent
the goal with prevent is obvious, cause the opposing offense to use short passes hoping to stop yac and burn down the clock, which most of the time it accomplishes, we all hate it, but it works far more often then it fails, and those odds are in favor of it's use.
Dom Capers abused those odds and it killed us, but then ya have to look at the HC concerning that stuff too, Mike McCarthy was the definition of ultra conservatism, and we still see the results of that (sometimes good, often bad) with Aaron Rodgers, playing conservative kept the NFL in small ball till Coryell introduced the wide open spread passing attack.
This coming from the poster who continually suggests he can read Rodgers’ mind…
Re: Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts
Posted: 28 Sep 2022 06:35
by Yoop
APB wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 22:09
Yoop wrote: ↑27 Sep 2022 12:15
here we go again with forum members thinking they know more then actual NFL coaches, and to my knowledge, only 23 has a resume that shows he's been a pee wee's league defensive assistent
the goal with prevent is obvious, cause the opposing offense to use short passes hoping to stop yac and burn down the clock, which most of the time it accomplishes, we all hate it, but it works far more often then it fails, and those odds are in favor of it's use.
Dom Capers abused those odds and it killed us, but then ya have to look at the HC concerning that stuff too, Mike McCarthy was the definition of ultra conservatism, and we still see the results of that (sometimes good, often bad) with Aaron Rodgers, playing conservative kept the NFL in small ball till Coryell introduced the wide open spread passing attack.
This coming from the poster who continually suggests he can read Rodgers’ mind…
I also respect the knowledge of a NFL coach over people on a internet forum, Barry's prevent actually was successful, the clock expired and we won the game.