Packers Huddle

Scott4Pack wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 10:19

If you want to make a case that being “called out” is harmful, fine. Just do that. But to say that the WRs “didn’t perform because of it” is equally wrong in itself.

No, it's not wrong at all.

There is one thing (ONE thing) we can objectively, unambiguously point to -- a very specific point in time before which he was not playing well, and after which, he did play well -- and draw a direct link to his improved play: catching the long ball. That was the point after which he started playing well. And it's not hard to figure out why, the play gave him confidence.

If there were truth to the idea that Rodgers's words were what made the lightbulb go off, then Watson would not have started the game with two bad drops and a bad route. Or, to the extent it did matter, it didn't clearly matter enough alone to fix the problem.

And in the same vein that it's not hard to figure out why making the play actually does help (confidence boost), neither is it hard to see why call-outs often won't, they destroy confidence.

This is the NFL that we are talking about. These guys are adults, or at least they are supposed to be.

Truth is, if used judiciously, call outs can do more help than harm. And Aaron Rodgers has probably been one of the LEAST likely vets to call out players who aren’t doing their jobs. In a season like this, the QB needs to expect more from the young guys. If you look at Watson’s after game presser this past Sunday, it looks to me like Rodgers definitely has Watson’s ear. He hasn’t lost it. And the kid is waking up to his job and his skills. There was no harm done.

Saying "this is the NFL, these guys are adults" only serves to show that call-outs are acceptable from a certain subjective standpoint, not that objectively they do in-fact help.

If they did objectively/verifiably work, I would be for it. I'm interested in what works, not opinions about what should be. Confidence is not something I want players to have because it's a feel-good story that gives me warm fuzzies; it's because it's NECESSARY for players to play well. Even vets need confidence. It's especially important in young players. They should be built-up, not torn down (again, for it being more likely to work, not what I just feel like is morally good).

Yoop wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 11:47

more bull &%$@ from you, players are responsible to improve, neither of Doubs or Watson where given a full play book, so if they screw up a route, it's on them, if they drop a pass thats on them, when Rodgers say these kids are responsible, and if they continue to mess up, take them off the field, he's right, these aren't practice games, there mis cues lead to losses, sitting a player that continues to screw up is standard practice, they got better because not to is a trip to the bench.

And my original point (before you changed the subject to your Golden Boy) was that the "cut reps" line-of-thinking is nonsense: we are too thin and do not have any better options at WR; refer back to previous post.

There is no "trip to the bench" when the replacement is Juwann Winfree or Amari Rodgers.

and for the 5th time now Rodgers never gave up on any of these receivers, he kept throwing to Doubs, Watkins and Watson.

Without looking, I am fairly certain you are wrong. If I believed you were not just an RDF troll, I might bother to look up the stats and let the best man win. Knowing it would be wasted, I will stick with my eye-test, thanks.

neither of Doubs or Watson where given a full play book

Do you have even a shred of evidence to back this claim, or is it just another asspull?

Labrev wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 12:41

Scott4Pack wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 10:19

If you want to make a case that being “called out” is harmful, fine. Just do that. But to say that the WRs “didn’t perform because of it” is equally wrong in itself.

No, it's not wrong at all.

There is one thing (ONE thing) we can objectively, unambiguously point to -- a very specific point in time before which he was not playing well, and after which, he did play well -- and draw a direct link to his improved play: catching the long ball. That was the point after which he started playing well. And it's not hard to figure out why, the play gave him confidence.

If there were truth to the idea that Rodgers's words were what made the lightbulb go off, then Watson would not have started the game with two bad drops and a bad route. Or, to the extent it did matter, it didn't clearly matter enough alone to fix the problem.

And in the same vein that it's not hard to figure out why making the play actually does help (confidence boost), neither is it hard to see why call-outs often won't, they destroy confidence.

I appreciate what you’re saying. But I don’t see how it applies in response to what you quoted from me at all.

Whether players and coaches want to admit it or not, NFL football is a public/social sport. They are paid to perform in public, with a team. If they don’t, they should be called out by coaches and/or vets on the team. Nothing aggregious. Just stuff to help them focus on raising the standard of their play. I think that Rodgers has done that with Watson and other WRs. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it’s really necessary. And if done properly, it’s VERY helpful, to the player and the team.

Labrev wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 12:59

Yoop wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 11:47

more bull &%$@ from you, players are responsible to improve, neither of Doubs or Watson where given a full play book, so if they screw up a route, it's on them, if they drop a pass thats on them, when Rodgers say these kids are responsible, and if they continue to mess up, take them off the field, he's right, these aren't practice games, there mis cues lead to losses, sitting a player that continues to screw up is standard practice, they got better because not to is a trip to the bench.

And my original point (before you changed the subject to your Golden Boy) was that the "cut reps" line-of-thinking is nonsense: we are too thin and do not have any better options at WR; refer back to previous post.

There is no "trip to the bench" when the replacement is Juwann Winfree or Amari Rodgers.

and for the 5th time now Rodgers never gave up on any of these receivers, he kept throwing to Doubs, Watkins and Watson.

Without looking, I am fairly certain you are wrong. If I believed you were not just an RDF troll, I might bother to look up the stats and let the best man win. Knowing it would be wasted, I will stick with my eye-test, thanks.

neither of Doubs or Watson where given a full play book

Do you have even a shred of evidence to back this claim, or is it just another asspull?

wtf is RDF, talk in actual sentences, rookies and first year players usually are given a smaller play book, and then plays are added during the year, specially so with Rookies that are expected to play right away.

you insult me, yet wont even bother to see player rep counts, just because Rodgers threatens to not throw to these players after they continually screw up doesn't mean that actually happened.

Golden Boy, here we go again with insults and demeaning comments, to think Lafluer or anyone from the Packers thinks Rodgers was as bad as you and others here claim is insanity, Rodgers got better because the ol blocked better, the run game became more consistent, and receivers finally started catching balls, Rodgers confidence in himself didn't waver, your really reaching now.

Labrev wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 12:41

If they did objectively/verifiably work, I would be for it. I'm interested in what works, not opinions about what should be. Confidence is not something I want players to have because it's a feel-good story that gives me warm fuzzies; it's because it's NECESSARY for players to play well. Even vets need confidence. It's especially important in young players. They should be built-up, not torn down (again, for it being more likely to work, not what I just feel like is morally good).

Do you realize that you are trying to measure “objective” standards to human behavior? Like, if “A” happens, then “B” must be the result.

Accountability in the best forms can still result in a negative response from players. For that matter, accountability in the worst forms could also, rarely, result in positive responses. This isn’t objective. It’s humanity. Yet, we still call out people, when appropriate. And we do so whether it results in more positive response or not. Again, that’s humanity.

Just think. We could talk about how Aaron Rodgers didn’t properly “call out” the WR group. And at the same time, we could demand that the coaching staff must “call out” or even fire Amari Rodgers for the fumbles. (They finally did that this morning.) Okay, which one is it?
:-)

Yoop wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 13:13

talk in actual sentences

PURE GOLD!

So why was Hill also let go?

Packers should trade their third round pick every year for a veteran addition

Drj820 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:32

Packers should trade their third round pick every year for a veteran addition

Yeah, was commenting on that a lot, along with our 4th round random success rate, as Doubs and Tom were the stars of TC and pretty much LT and WR1 for a little stretch there.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:32

Packers should trade their third round pick every year for a veteran addition

Saw Richard Rodgers catch a ball for the Chargers the other night, announcers referred to him as 'the former Packer', found that funny. Hasn't been a Packer since 2017, spent 4 years in Philly.

Is 15 career TD's for a 3rd round TE good? Not sure he lived up to any hope some may have had for him, at the same time I would imagine that is far over the average career production for a 3rd rounder. Good pick? Bad pick? Average? I don't know.

BF004 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:43

Drj820 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:32

Packers should trade their third round pick every year for a veteran addition

Yeah, was commenting on that a lot, along with our 4th round random success rate, as Doubs and Tom were the stars of TC and pretty much LT and WR1 for a little stretch there.

Romeo Doubs
Zach Tom
Royce Newman
J'Mon Moore
Vince Biegel
Jamaal Williams
Blake Martinez
Dean Lowry
Jake Ryan
Carl Bradford
David Bakhtiari
J.C. Tretter
Jonathan Franklin
Mike Daniels
Jerron McMillian
Davon House

Was curious to see what our 4th rounders have looked like over that same time period.

Scott4Pack wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 13:16

Do you realize that you are trying to measure “objective” standards to human behavior? Like, if “A” happens, then “B” must be the result.

Yes, psychology experiments do this all the time. There are limits sure, but it can be done.

Accountability in the best forms can still result in a negative response from players. For that matter, accountability in the worst forms could also, rarely, result in positive responses. This isn’t objective. It’s humanity. Yet, we still call out people, when appropriate. And we do so whether it results in more positive response or not. Again, that’s humanity.

That's a different conversation. I am all for accountability. Call-outs are merely a form of accountability, not the be-all/end-all of it, and a form that I don't think is effective.

I think we just have very different attitudes/approaches to this. Why do we want accountability in the first place? Ostensibly, because you want to hold people to a standard and make sure they are performing to said standard or above.

To me, the second part of that equation is the more important part. It's not enough to me that a player is underperforming and warrants accountability. If it were, then sure, call him out and disregard whether it works or not.

Personally, I would prefer to use a form of accountability that will actually lead the player to improve his performance, and to avoid wating time and energy on forms that will be ineffective or even further detriment the performance. JMO.

d!ck-rod was a JAG. His production was about where you would expect from a guy with pretty modest athletic talent. Calling him a bust might be slightly harsh but I think you expect more from a 3rd-rounder than a mediocre starter/depth guy.

I will say that if there was no alternative universe where the Miracle in Motown happens, then the pick was worth it.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:55

BF004 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:43

Drj820 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:32

Packers should trade their third round pick every year for a veteran addition

Yeah, was commenting on that a lot, along with our 4th round random success rate, as Doubs and Tom were the stars of TC and pretty much LT and WR1 for a little stretch there.

Romeo Doubs
Zach Tom
Royce Newman
J'Mon Moore
Vince Biegel
Jamaal Williams
Blake Martinez
Dean Lowry
Jake Ryan
Carl Bradford
David Bakhtiari
J.C. Tretter
Jonathan Franklin
Mike Daniels
Jerron McMillian
Davon House

Was curious to see what our 4th rounders have looked like over that same time period.

hey, there must be a formula for why 4th rounder make better NFL players then 3rd rounders, we must have some sort of secret formula

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:55

BF004 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:43

Drj820 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:32

Packers should trade their third round pick every year for a veteran addition

Yeah, was commenting on that a lot, along with our 4th round random success rate, as Doubs and Tom were the stars of TC and pretty much LT and WR1 for a little stretch there.

Romeo Doubs
Zach Tom
Royce Newman
J'Mon Moore
Vince Biegel
Jamaal Williams
Blake Martinez
Dean Lowry
Jake Ryan
Carl Bradford
David Bakhtiari
J.C. Tretter
Jonathan Franklin
Mike Daniels
Jerron McMillian
Davon House

Was curious to see what our 4th rounders have looked like over that same time period.

Not sure how far back you'd have to go, but I'm definitely thinking of TJ Lang and Josh Sitton.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:55

BF004 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:43

Drj820 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:32

Packers should trade their third round pick every year for a veteran addition

Yeah, was commenting on that a lot, along with our 4th round random success rate, as Doubs and Tom were the stars of TC and pretty much LT and WR1 for a little stretch there.

Romeo Doubs
Zach Tom
Royce Newman
J'Mon Moore
Vince Biegel
Jamaal Williams
Blake Martinez
Dean Lowry
Jake Ryan
Carl Bradford
David Bakhtiari
J.C. Tretter
Jonathan Franklin
Mike Daniels
Jerron McMillian
Davon House

Was curious to see what our 4th rounders have looked like over that same time period.

Just crazy how much better the Packer 4th round picks have been compared to the 3rd round picks.

Makes no sense to me at least and I would love for someone to try and explain it.

Ted Thompson really hit on the 4th round in Bakhtiari, Daniels, Tretter, Williams, and even House. Franklin looked like a player until the injury.

Lowry and Martinez were also fine.

Hope Tom and Doubs are like Thompson's 4th round hits.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:32

Packers should trade their third round pick every year for a veteran addition

Honestly just use the 3rd round and 2nd rounder to trade up to late 1 or early 2.

Labrev wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 15:06

Personally, I would prefer to use a form of accountability that will actually lead the player to improve his performance, and to avoid wating time and energy on forms that will be ineffective or even further detriment the performance. JMO.

Me too. Lol

If you or anybody else find a way that work for all people all the time, let me know what that is. I’m grinning, just thinking about how impossible that would be. But we can dream, right?

BF004 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 15:38

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:55

BF004 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:43

Yeah, was commenting on that a lot, along with our 4th round random success rate, as Doubs and Tom were the stars of TC and pretty much LT and WR1 for a little stretch there.

Romeo Doubs
Zach Tom
Royce Newman
J'Mon Moore
Vince Biegel
Jamaal Williams
Blake Martinez
Dean Lowry
Jake Ryan
Carl Bradford
David Bakhtiari
J.C. Tretter
Jonathan Franklin
Mike Daniels
Jerron McMillian
Davon House

Was curious to see what our 4th rounders have looked like over that same time period.

Not sure how far back you'd have to go, but I'm definitely thinking of TJ Lang and Josh Sitton.

Josh Sitton imho is one of the most under rated Guards the teams ever had, just a road grader, that line of Cliffy Sitton Wells Lang and Bulaga was one of the best OL's we've had in the modern era, Cliffy was the big name guy, But Sitton to me was the best OLiner we had back then, to bad injury's depleeted his ability some.

Yoop wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 16:05

BF004 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 15:38

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

15 Nov 2022 14:55

Romeo Doubs
Zach Tom
Royce Newman
J'Mon Moore
Vince Biegel
Jamaal Williams
Blake Martinez
Dean Lowry
Jake Ryan
Carl Bradford
David Bakhtiari
J.C. Tretter
Jonathan Franklin
Mike Daniels
Jerron McMillian
Davon House

Was curious to see what our 4th rounders have looked like over that same time period.

Not sure how far back you'd have to go, but I'm definitely thinking of TJ Lang and Josh Sitton.

Josh Sitton imho is one of the most under rated Guards the teams ever had, just a road grader, that line of Cliffy Sitton Wells Lang and Bulaga was one of the best OL's we've had in the modern era, Cliffy was the big name guy, But Sitton to me was the best OLiner we had back then, to bad injury's depleeted his ability some.

I don't know who is underrating Sitton or that line. The 2010 - 2014 Oline and 2001 - 2003 Oline are regarded as the best lines in Green Bay modern era history. Competing against the great Lombardi lines.