There are several body types that can play the slot.
small guys with tremendous quickness are great gadgets to beat linebackers
big guys who cant block as well as TEs and can catch are great matchups against safeties and some LBs.
The evolution to me is that both body types are now seen as potential slot guys. Guys like Lazard are getting moved out to WR instead of told they cant play in the league because they arent quite big enough to block like a TE.
The run blocking you can get from a big slot guy is a huge upside too.
A good coach can take a small shift slot guy and make him useful, and a good coach can take a big/slower than perimeter guy and and move the chains with him.
All about creating good matchup, shifty quick speed and size are both great for that.
2022 WR's
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So, a month in, are we happy with what we've got, or are we thinking that we ought to trade for someone before the deadline?
I can say that my position has shifted although not too much. Before the season I was pretty happy to stand firm with what we had, and now I am thinking it would probably be better if we tried to get help either in the form of a trade or maybe signing Odell if he would even want to play here.
I watched the Chiefs play last night and frankly their WRs routinely made catches that I just couldn't see our guys making with any regularity. MVS even had one- I watched the catch before seeing who it was and I thought "man I don't think any of our WRs could make a catch like that", and then found out it was MVS. On the other hand, later in the game, after repeatedly making that observation, one of their WRs had a drop (or rather, failed to make a nice catch) and my first reaction was "ah now that looks like a Packers WR", and it turned out to be MVS again.
Anyways, point is, Watson and Doubs haven't impressed me to the point of thinking they are elite (as of right now). They look good, but they don't seem to make many of the tough catches that you want your elite WRs to be making. TO notoriously had bad hands despite being elite, and you can be elite without having great hands, but idk their lack of catching ability relative to what I desire has me thinking it might be a good idea to see what is out there for this season at least.
I'd like to see us throw more deep balls to Watson to see what he can do.
I can say that my position has shifted although not too much. Before the season I was pretty happy to stand firm with what we had, and now I am thinking it would probably be better if we tried to get help either in the form of a trade or maybe signing Odell if he would even want to play here.
I watched the Chiefs play last night and frankly their WRs routinely made catches that I just couldn't see our guys making with any regularity. MVS even had one- I watched the catch before seeing who it was and I thought "man I don't think any of our WRs could make a catch like that", and then found out it was MVS. On the other hand, later in the game, after repeatedly making that observation, one of their WRs had a drop (or rather, failed to make a nice catch) and my first reaction was "ah now that looks like a Packers WR", and it turned out to be MVS again.
Anyways, point is, Watson and Doubs haven't impressed me to the point of thinking they are elite (as of right now). They look good, but they don't seem to make many of the tough catches that you want your elite WRs to be making. TO notoriously had bad hands despite being elite, and you can be elite without having great hands, but idk their lack of catching ability relative to what I desire has me thinking it might be a good idea to see what is out there for this season at least.
I'd like to see us throw more deep balls to Watson to see what he can do.
IF Sammy Watkins struggles with his hammy OR if no one else really steps up OR if we have another injury, then I'm good with signing Odell. Don't really know who else would become available that would be a better option than what we have other than Odell.texas wrote: ↑03 Oct 2022 15:41So, a month in, are we happy with what we've got, or are we thinking that we ought to trade for someone before the deadline?
I can say that my position has shifted although not too much. Before the season I was pretty happy to stand firm with what we had, and now I am thinking it would probably be better if we tried to get help either in the form of a trade or maybe signing Odell if he would even want to play here.
I watched the Chiefs play last night and frankly their WRs routinely made catches that I just couldn't see our guys making with any regularity. MVS even had one- I watched the catch before seeing who it was and I thought "man I don't think any of our WRs could make a catch like that", and then found out it was MVS. On the other hand, later in the game, after repeatedly making that observation, one of their WRs had a drop (or rather, failed to make a nice catch) and my first reaction was "ah now that looks like a Packers WR", and it turned out to be MVS again.
Anyways, point is, Watson and Doubs haven't impressed me to the point of thinking they are elite (as of right now). They look good, but they don't seem to make many of the tough catches that you want your elite WRs to be making. TO notoriously had bad hands despite being elite, and you can be elite without having great hands, but idk their lack of catching ability relative to what I desire has me thinking it might be a good idea to see what is out there for this season at least.
I'd like to see us throw more deep balls to Watson to see what he can do.
Doubs needs to clean things up and become more reliable, and Watson needs to carve out some kind of niche in the passing game. I think missing 'camp was a bigger setback for him than expected, but maybe he can still find some small role that will help out this year, e.g. designated deep-threat guy ala MVS.
Apart from that, and using a roster spot on a mediocre return-specialist, I'm good with the WRs.
Don't get me wrong, this is a sub-par group, but I like that Rodgers doesn't get a Staples "easy button" like Adams anymore, because while that can work great for most of the regular season, it's our undoing once we face a team in the playoffs that gets rid of it. Now we can't be predictable in the pass and also need to rely on the run more.
And pass on Odell, not that he's not worth the money theoretically, but because Rodgers will do his usual thing of looking for him and nobody else. I would rather add a RT.
Apart from that, and using a roster spot on a mediocre return-specialist, I'm good with the WRs.
Don't get me wrong, this is a sub-par group, but I like that Rodgers doesn't get a Staples "easy button" like Adams anymore, because while that can work great for most of the regular season, it's our undoing once we face a team in the playoffs that gets rid of it. Now we can't be predictable in the pass and also need to rely on the run more.
And pass on Odell, not that he's not worth the money theoretically, but because Rodgers will do his usual thing of looking for him and nobody else. I would rather add a RT.
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Yeah tbh, and I think I was one of the main proponents of this theory in the offseason, that was my biggest reason for not wanting us to go out and get an elite WR. The safety blanket phenomenon is a real thing, and it is far better to plow through subconscious tendencies like that than it is to feed them by seeking safety (in this case in the form of a top WR he can trust).Labrev wrote: ↑03 Oct 2022 16:39Doubs needs to clean things up and become more reliable, and Watson needs to carve out some kind of niche in the passing game. I think missing 'camp was a bigger setback for him than expected, but maybe he can still find some small role that will help out this year, e.g. designated deep-threat guy ala MVS.
Apart from that, and using a roster spot on a mediocre return-specialist, I'm good with the WRs.
Don't get me wrong, this is a sub-par group, but I like that Rodgers doesn't get a Staples "easy button" like Adams anymore, because while that can work great for most of the regular season, it's our undoing once we face a team in the playoffs that gets rid of it. Now we can't be predictable in the pass and also need to rely on the run more.
And pass on Odell, not that he's not worth the money theoretically, but because Rodgers will do his usual thing of looking for him and nobody else. I would rather add a RT.
Idk the thing that makes me pause is just how our guys simply look subpar (because they can't seem to catch harder-than-average throws that other WRs in the league can handle), but ultimately I guess I have to say I agree with you and my former opinion that it is probably best overall if Rodgers can find a way to live and thrive in a scenario where there is no safety blanket.
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YoHoChecko
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The reason why I always said both that I am pleased with what we have AND I wouldn't mind signing Beckham is that Odell isn't healthy right now.
The Packers will have to convert their offense to the run-first, spread-it-around game to get through the season. Doubs and Watson will have to learn on the fly and grow more consistent and get on the same page with Rodgers. The vets will help guide them in the film room and by example along the way... then if it clicks, we start firing as a higher octane offense. If it still leaves something to be desired, Beckham can show up as an additional playmaker.... but he won't know Rodgers or the offense well enough (Rodgers mattering more) for Rodgers to try to make him go hero mode.
He'd be just one more cog in the offense who happens to be more reliable than the young guys and more dynamic than the current vets. I think his specific conditions would help come playoff time.
But he's the only guy I'd consider--the right amount of familiarity with the overall scheme, dynamic upside, injury timeline, and cost (plus he said he was interested last year and still tweets about how good Rodgers is, so we're at least on his radar). So overall, I like our group. I think they'll grow. I'm bummed Sammy's predictable injury hit as early as it did, but I never thought he'd play more than, say, 12 games.
I think they're going to be alright. The offense has been more inconsistent than bad. That's reason for hope for me. We've seen it both in the first half against the Bucs and the second half against the Pats that when we click, we can look really good. The game plans have been MUCH better since week one when there was no rhythm (I still think that was a formation/substitution issue where MLF almost assured the team would find no groove by swapping the personnel out wildly every play).
So yeah, the WRs are alright. Doubs has been a revelation.
The Packers will have to convert their offense to the run-first, spread-it-around game to get through the season. Doubs and Watson will have to learn on the fly and grow more consistent and get on the same page with Rodgers. The vets will help guide them in the film room and by example along the way... then if it clicks, we start firing as a higher octane offense. If it still leaves something to be desired, Beckham can show up as an additional playmaker.... but he won't know Rodgers or the offense well enough (Rodgers mattering more) for Rodgers to try to make him go hero mode.
He'd be just one more cog in the offense who happens to be more reliable than the young guys and more dynamic than the current vets. I think his specific conditions would help come playoff time.
But he's the only guy I'd consider--the right amount of familiarity with the overall scheme, dynamic upside, injury timeline, and cost (plus he said he was interested last year and still tweets about how good Rodgers is, so we're at least on his radar). So overall, I like our group. I think they'll grow. I'm bummed Sammy's predictable injury hit as early as it did, but I never thought he'd play more than, say, 12 games.
I think they're going to be alright. The offense has been more inconsistent than bad. That's reason for hope for me. We've seen it both in the first half against the Bucs and the second half against the Pats that when we click, we can look really good. The game plans have been MUCH better since week one when there was no rhythm (I still think that was a formation/substitution issue where MLF almost assured the team would find no groove by swapping the personnel out wildly every play).
So yeah, the WRs are alright. Doubs has been a revelation.
This O understandably doesn't have anybody excited, but we have run the other experiment (Rodgers + star WR) many times now and while winning records and playoff seasons are both great accomplishments, it just hasn't gotten us quite to where we wanted to go.texas wrote: ↑03 Oct 2022 17:58Idk the thing that makes me pause is just how our guys simply look subpar (because they can't seem to catch harder-than-average throws that other WRs in the league can handle), but ultimately I guess I have to say I agree with you and my former opinion that it is probably best overall if Rodgers can find a way to live and thrive in a scenario where there is no safety blanket.
It's worth running the experiment to see if Rodgers + strong D/ST & RBs will get us there instead.
In a way, with Rodgers's style of playing his position, maybe this is better: Game Manager+, a guy who seldom makes costly errors, even makes Wow throws from time to time, but we do not live/die by his arm (or his connection with any one receiver).
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German_Panzer
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I think we are good, i.e. we do not (desperately) need some WR, but we also should not pass if there‘s an opportunity like the one we had with Randy Moss, back then when Favre was still our QB. So I‘d monitor things quite closely. Cobb shows us that aging WRs can still perform. In a couple of games certain teams will start to rebuild, meaning: get rid of heavy baggage and if this baggage includes a top WR who wants a cheap SB and is willing to come then go for it, we might have no next season (with #12). But it has to be an elusive guy, we don‘t need another average WR - we have enough.
p.s. Labrev makes a good point though in not to pursue a top WR for the sake of Rodgers staying open minded. So this strategy would simplify things.
p.s. Labrev makes a good point though in not to pursue a top WR for the sake of Rodgers staying open minded. So this strategy would simplify things.
Last edited by German_Panzer on 03 Oct 2022 19:27, edited 1 time in total.
If we are going to be a run first offense then our run blocking needs to improve, we still rely on our RB's to gain yardage after first contact, while they've done so, the fear of Rodgers burning them keeps defenses honest, when they weren't afraid of Rodgers and our passing game, the run becomes inconsistent, or have people forgotten all the 3 and outs, being a short ball offense requires consistently moving the chains and getting positive yards per play.
Rodgers polarization stems from a lack of quality #2 receivers, Lafluer even mentioned that Adams is the first read on 80 plus % of the pass plays, and Adams tended to be open, why would Rodgers by pass throwing him the ball, this has never been a Rodgers problem, it's a lack of quality receivers after Adams problem that has existed here for half a decade, obvious to every sports announcer and football person, Rodgers never had any problem spreading the ball around when he had better talent, when players can't get open on schedule they wont be thrown the ball, specially so when ya have a Tae Adams.
both Doubs and Watson have shown they can get open, create more short crossing routes featuring them would seem a wise thing to do, same with Tonyan, and cut back on these boundary los tosses that Stevie Wonder can spot as soon as we line up pre snap, I like doing that, but 20 times a game is like jumping into a bottomless pit, what happen to Lafluer scheming the WR's open? was that all Hacketts work?
Rodgers polarization stems from a lack of quality #2 receivers, Lafluer even mentioned that Adams is the first read on 80 plus % of the pass plays, and Adams tended to be open, why would Rodgers by pass throwing him the ball, this has never been a Rodgers problem, it's a lack of quality receivers after Adams problem that has existed here for half a decade, obvious to every sports announcer and football person, Rodgers never had any problem spreading the ball around when he had better talent, when players can't get open on schedule they wont be thrown the ball, specially so when ya have a Tae Adams.
both Doubs and Watson have shown they can get open, create more short crossing routes featuring them would seem a wise thing to do, same with Tonyan, and cut back on these boundary los tosses that Stevie Wonder can spot as soon as we line up pre snap, I like doing that, but 20 times a game is like jumping into a bottomless pit, what happen to Lafluer scheming the WR's open? was that all Hacketts work?
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YoHoChecko
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Ah yes, the trusty nameless elite WR decaying on a bad team while playing on an affordable and tradable contract... my favorite player.German_Panzer wrote: ↑03 Oct 2022 19:24In a couple of games certain teams will start to rebuild, meaning: get rid of heavy baggage and if this baggage includes a top WR who wants a cheap SB and is willing to come then go for it, we might have no next season (with #12). But it has to be an elusive guy, we don‘t need another average WR - we have enough.
I'd be willing to trade future draft capital for an upgrade over Watkins.
The "AR with no WR1" -theory is interesting, but won't help us if we happen to fall a couple of scores behind an opponent in the playoffs. I don't think our current WRs are good enough to beat a secondary that gets to play pass D without threat of run.
We do not need an All-Pro WR that hogs all passes. I'd settle for a borderline Pro Bowler...
The other option is to hope Watson and Doubs stay healthy and grow enough during the season. I do like their career prospects, but am not sure they'll grow that fast.
The "AR with no WR1" -theory is interesting, but won't help us if we happen to fall a couple of scores behind an opponent in the playoffs. I don't think our current WRs are good enough to beat a secondary that gets to play pass D without threat of run.
We do not need an All-Pro WR that hogs all passes. I'd settle for a borderline Pro Bowler...
The other option is to hope Watson and Doubs stay healthy and grow enough during the season. I do like their career prospects, but am not sure they'll grow that fast.
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑03 Oct 2022 19:35Ah yes, the trusty nameless elite WR decaying on a bad team while playing on an affordable and tradable contract... my favorite player.German_Panzer wrote: ↑03 Oct 2022 19:24In a couple of games certain teams will start to rebuild, meaning: get rid of heavy baggage and if this baggage includes a top WR who wants a cheap SB and is willing to come then go for it, we might have no next season (with #12). But it has to be an elusive guy, we don‘t need another average WR - we have enough.
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lupedafiasco
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I mean Ive said it time and time again but the rules change in the playoffs. DBs are allowed to be more physical. If this is what we bring into the playoffs we simply get a 1st round exit. Its that simple. The good news is I think Doubs is carving out a role and the mistakes he makes are for the most part correctable. He is a real player. Watson I dont think will be ready this year. I'm starting to see a lot out of him that I dont like as a WR. The drop week 1 was unfortunate and he showed he has real speed on that play and on his sweep this week. The play where Rodgers gave him a deep shot this week he didnt track the ball properly and to make matters worse he didnt adjust well either. Im not saying these arent correctable either but its going to take time we dont have. MVS had these same problems and he still doesnt know how to track a ball from what Ive seen from in in KC.
The Packers need to find someone on the market come the trade deadline. I know Cooks said if he was traded again he would retire but I would try and find some way to see if we could get him out of that &%$@ Texans team and with us. Hes a star on a bad team.
The Packers need to find someone on the market come the trade deadline. I know Cooks said if he was traded again he would retire but I would try and find some way to see if we could get him out of that &%$@ Texans team and with us. Hes a star on a bad team.
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YoHoChecko
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Trading Cooks would create like a $40 million cap hit.lupedafiasco wrote: ↑03 Oct 2022 20:26The Packers need to find someone on the market come the trade deadline. I know Cooks said if he was traded again he would retire but I would try and find some way to see if we could get him out of that &%$@ Texans team and with us. Hes a star on a bad team.
Same with Amari Cooper.
Y'all are just a bunch of dreamers.
Went through all the teams.
Looking at teams who were already 1-3 with a cheap decent WR with and expiring contract.
Came to Jakobi Meyers. Bout the best I could find. He’s on his RFA tender, prolly end up costing us around $2 million.
New England would be a team prolly smart enough to try and swing him for a pick if they drop a few more.
Maybe a 4th rounder?
Looking at teams who were already 1-3 with a cheap decent WR with and expiring contract.
Came to Jakobi Meyers. Bout the best I could find. He’s on his RFA tender, prolly end up costing us around $2 million.
New England would be a team prolly smart enough to try and swing him for a pick if they drop a few more.
Maybe a 4th rounder?
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German_Panzer
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I do not know a rookie WR who became elite after just 16 games. Are there examples that could serve us and MLF to believe?
As I wrote, I would not actively push some trade - we are not in deep need - but if a Randy Moss-like deal comes along, this time I would most certainly take it. The most realistic scenario probably will be that a losing team starts rebuilding in mid-october and wants to ship an aging but still elite receiver for picks and salary cap freedom. That is where I‘d raise my eyebrows.
Jamar chase and Justin Jefferson from Just last couple yearsGerman_Panzer wrote: ↑03 Oct 2022 21:19I do not know a rookie WR who became elite after just 16 games. Are there examples that could serve us and MLF to believe?
As I wrote, I would not actively push some trade - we are not in deep need - but if a Randy Moss-like deal comes along, this time I would most certainly take it. The most realistic scenario probably will be that a losing team starts rebuilding in mid-october and wants to ship an aging but still elite receiver for picks and salary cap freedom. That is where I‘d raise my eyebrows.
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YoHoChecko
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Not sure why it matters whether or not rookies become "elite" WRs by the playoffs. It matters if they're useful and functional and can provide options when the veterans are taken away or their limitations are exposed.
Justis Mosqueda is tracking Doubs as compared to other WRs drafted in the 4th round or later and so far only Marques Colston has been more productive through 4 games, so yeah, it's right to wonder about when we last saw something like we're seeing from Doubs, relative to draft status. Darnell Mooney also rings a bell there (5th round, 61 catches for 630 yards)... but Doubs has been more well-rounded than Mooney was.
Christian Watson is further behind, but his speed has been evident both on his deep bomb drop where he torched the coverage and on his jet sweep 2 carries for 22 yards (15 and 7, with one TD) and his measurables and attitude put his ceiling as high as anyone, but we all expected the competition jump and the rawness to take some time. So sure, he's unlikely to be an elite WR by week 17, but he certainly can be an occasional gamebreaking weapon throughout the playoffs when teams focus on our short game and run game.
Justis Mosqueda is tracking Doubs as compared to other WRs drafted in the 4th round or later and so far only Marques Colston has been more productive through 4 games, so yeah, it's right to wonder about when we last saw something like we're seeing from Doubs, relative to draft status. Darnell Mooney also rings a bell there (5th round, 61 catches for 630 yards)... but Doubs has been more well-rounded than Mooney was.
Christian Watson is further behind, but his speed has been evident both on his deep bomb drop where he torched the coverage and on his jet sweep 2 carries for 22 yards (15 and 7, with one TD) and his measurables and attitude put his ceiling as high as anyone, but we all expected the competition jump and the rawness to take some time. So sure, he's unlikely to be an elite WR by week 17, but he certainly can be an occasional gamebreaking weapon throughout the playoffs when teams focus on our short game and run game.
Love doubs. I’m not concerned at all about anything bad he’s done. The drop, the fumble...all rookie mistakes and growing pains that can easily be cleaned up as time goes on. Doubs is the real deal. You can tell because he tracks the ball, catches the ball with his hands, and can get open on almost anyone...that we’ve seen.
As for Watson, sure he has measurables...has there been any evidence he can catch a ball past the line of scrimmage with his hands? Have we seen that at all?
He certainly looks like a heck of an athlete, but pass catcher? TBD i guess.
As for Watson, sure he has measurables...has there been any evidence he can catch a ball past the line of scrimmage with his hands? Have we seen that at all?
He certainly looks like a heck of an athlete, but pass catcher? TBD i guess.
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TheSkeptic
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Doubs has removed all doubt. He is the real deal and is currently the 2nd best receiver on the Packers (including those temporarily on IR). Only Lazard is better.
It is unfortunate that Watson missed the entire pre season. He is raw and needed it. I am not concerned about drops, those will go away when he becomes confident in his game and the game slows down for him.
It is also a long season. There seems to be little doubt that the Packers are going to make the playoffs. It matters a lot more how Watson and Doubs play in January than now. The Packers should be feeding them the ball now, every target is experience.
It is unfortunate that Watson missed the entire pre season. He is raw and needed it. I am not concerned about drops, those will go away when he becomes confident in his game and the game slows down for him.
It is also a long season. There seems to be little doubt that the Packers are going to make the playoffs. It matters a lot more how Watson and Doubs play in January than now. The Packers should be feeding them the ball now, every target is experience.