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Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 21 Jul 2021 21:10
by Pckfn23
Please tell me exactly how Aaron Rodgers has been disrespected.
This won't be answered, but it was worth a try.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 21 Jul 2021 21:27
by Raptorman
Yoop wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 08:40
dsr wrote: ↑20 Jul 2021 18:26
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑20 Jul 2021 14:05
I would say good management is good resource management. That has not been the case here. In fact it hasnt been on multiple accounts, not just this one. I would love to have a great backup QB who in time can be the perfect successor to Rodgers. What a perfect world that would be. Unfortunately in the real world you just took what was our best resource to get a quality player to develop and play on cheap contract years and threw it on the bench causing a massive rift between QB and management.
Just how many of these "perfect successors to Rodgers" do you think there are? Do you think they can look at the draft, think "he might be the perfect successor to Rodgers", and then decide not to draft him because there's bound to be another one available next year?
absolutely, QB's taken where Love was have a 75% bust rate, sure some where not coached up long enough, but the point is most where successful college QB's where the game is slower and less complicated, heres a link to success rates according to pick slot of all QB's drafted this century, and what to expect from this class.
https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/qb ... -nfl-draft
And here's a list of all of those QB's taken from 21 to 32 since 1970. Draft year, position, name, and games started during their career. Since 1970 there have been 119 Qb's taken in the first round. Of that number, 6 are in the Hall of Fame.
Code: Select all
1977 27 Tommy Kramer 110
1979 23 Steve Fuller 42
1980 28 Mark Malone 54
1983 24 Ken O'Brien 110
1983 27 Dan Marino HOF 240
1987 26 Jim Harbaugh 140
1991 24 Todd Marinovich 8
1992 25 Tommy Maddox 36
1997 26 J.Druckenmiller 1
2002 32 Patrick Ramsey 24
2003 22 Rex Grossman 47
2004 22 J.P. Losman 33
2005 24 Aaron Rodgers 190
2005 25 Jason Campbell 79
2007 22 Brady Quinn 20
2010 25 Tim Tebow 16
2012 22 Brandon Weeden 25
2014 22 Johnny Manziel 8
2014 32 T. Bridgewater 49
2016 26 Paxton Lynch 4
2018 32 Lamar Jackson 37
2020 26 Jordan Love
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 21 Jul 2021 21:32
by bud fox
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 21:10
Please tell me exactly how Aaron Rodgers has been disrespected.
This won't be answered, but it was worth a try.
Drafting a first round QB first year into his extension.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 21 Jul 2021 21:49
by Labrev
paco wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 12:42
Heh, never actually listened to this guy before (I don't consume very much sports news media at all, ESPN or otherwise).
Well he's quite the idiot, isn't he?
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 21 Jul 2021 22:04
by Pckfn23
bud fox wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 21:32
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 21:10
Please tell me exactly how Aaron Rodgers has been disrespected.
This won't be answered, but it was worth a try.
Drafting a first round QB first year into his extension.
First it was not the first year into his extension.
Second, that's a pretty sophomoric reason to feel disrespected.
If that is it, it does not make Rodgers look good.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 21 Jul 2021 22:15
by bud fox
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 22:04
bud fox wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 21:32
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 21:10
Please tell me exactly how Aaron Rodgers has been disrespected.
This won't be answered, but it was worth a try.
Drafting a first round QB first year into his extension.
First it was not the first year into his extension.
Second, that's a pretty sophomoric reason to feel disrespected.
If that is it, it does not make Rodgers look good.
Post first year.
It is subjective - lots of people believe he is right and people also don't
Ultimately the packers can break whatever promise they made underlining the contract but Rodgers cant break his contract if that promise is broken.
"here is the extension we going to be going for it whilst we are lucky enough to have you" first year of extension done "yeah sorry we going to invest in the future now, hope you're cool for that if not bad luck you are signed for the next 3-4 years or whatever"
What Rodgers is doing now is the standard playbook and the only real options a player has to express unhappiness and hope to change the situation.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 21 Jul 2021 22:35
by YoHoChecko
bud fox wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 19:06
Comments above ultimately mostly subjective.
Yes, correct. I was summarizing my opinions of the situation on a message board.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 21 Jul 2021 22:47
by bud fox
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 22:35
bud fox wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 19:06
Comments above ultimately mostly subjective.
Yes, correct. I was summarizing my opinions of the situation on a message board.
I know - I actually meant my comments in red. But ultimately yes, especially on this topic, just about everything is subjective.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 22 Jul 2021 00:14
by Pckfn23
bud fox wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 22:15
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 22:04
bud fox wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 21:32
Drafting a first round QB first year into his extension.
First it was not the first year into his extension.
Second, that's a pretty sophomoric reason to feel disrespected.
If that is it, it does not make Rodgers look good.
Post first year.
It is subjective - lots of people believe he is right and people also don't
Most is subjective, sure, but parts are not. For example, there were 2 full NFL seasons between resigning Rodgers and drafting Love, almost 20 full months. Trying to say it was the first year into the extension is factually wrong.
Ultimately the packers can break whatever promise they made underlining the contract but Rodgers cant break his contract if that promise is broken.
Rodgers is currently breaking his contract and will do so more if he does not show up for training camp. Again, factual wrong.
"here is the extension we going to be going for it whilst we are lucky enough to have you" first year of extension done "yeah sorry we going to invest in the future now, hope you're cool for that if not bad luck you are signed for the next 3-4 years or whatever"
Again, factually incorrect, after the 2nd year of the extension. The team invests in the future, EVERY SINGLE DRAFT. Every team does. It is pretty telling though if he is threatened by said draft pick. If he is so good, there isn't much of a worry, especially since the team already wanted to extend him again.
What Rodgers is doing now is the standard playbook and the only real options a player has to express unhappiness and hope to change the situation.
This is standard? If so standard, I would love to hear of all the other examples. You are correct though, it is the only real option, but his reasonings behind it are completely sophomoric.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 22 Jul 2021 01:33
by bud fox
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021 00:14
bud fox wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 22:15
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 22:04
First it was not the first year into his extension.
Second, that's a pretty sophomoric reason to feel disrespected.
If that is it, it does not make Rodgers look good.
Post first year.
It is subjective - lots of people believe he is right and people also don't
Most is subjective, sure, but parts are not. For example, there were 2 full NFL seasons between resigning Rodgers and drafting Love, almost 20 full months. Trying to say it was the first year into the extension is factually wrong.
Ultimately the packers can break whatever promise they made underlining the contract but Rodgers cant break his contract if that promise is broken.
Rodgers is currently breaking his contract and will do so more if he does not show up for training camp. Again, factual wrong.
"here is the extension we going to be going for it whilst we are lucky enough to have you" first year of extension done "yeah sorry we going to invest in the future now, hope you're cool for that if not bad luck you are signed for the next 3-4 years or whatever"
Again, factually incorrect, after the 2nd year of the extension. The team invests in the future, EVERY SINGLE DRAFT. Every team does. It is pretty telling though if he is threatened by said draft pick. If he is so good, there isn't much of a worry, especially since the team already wanted to extend him again.
What Rodgers is doing now is the standard playbook and the only real options a player has to express unhappiness and hope to change the situation.
This is standard? If so standard, I would love to hear of all the other examples. You are correct though, it is the only real option, but his reasonings behind it are completely sophomoric.
First year of extension years. Not first year from signing.
Semantics - I mean terminate the contract and go play somewhere else.
Again you are on signing date and not new years of extension.
Any single player that has ever held out which is plenty. There is nothing else you can really do as a player under contract.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 22 Jul 2021 03:21
by dsr
bud fox wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 21:32
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 21:10
Please tell me exactly how Aaron Rodgers has been disrespected.
This won't be answered, but it was worth a try.
Drafting a first round QB first year into his extension.
Is it because it is disrespectful to Rodgers to suggest that he will ever get old, or injured, or lose his touch?
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 22 Jul 2021 03:24
by dsr
bud fox wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021 01:33
First year of extension years. Not first year from signing.
So if they had signed Love the year before, that wouldn't have been disrespectful because it was before Rodgers' contract extension - Rodgers would have been within weeks of the end of his contract.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 22 Jul 2021 06:22
by go pak go
dsr wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021 03:24
bud fox wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021 01:33
First year of extension years. Not first year from signing.
So if they had signed Love the year before, that wouldn't have been disrespectful because it was before Rodgers' contract extension - Rodgers would have been within weeks of the end of his contract.
duh.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 22 Jul 2021 07:40
by Yoop
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 14:50
And then Rodgers, like lupe, like many national reporters, viewed the drafting of Jordan Love as a path-dependent, set timeline, for Rodgers' dismissal. I believe Rodgers misinterpreted that selection. I believe the team was taking a gamble to give them a possible successor in the event that Rodgers doesn't reclaim his old glory. The day of the draft, Gutey said himself that if Love reaches the end of his contract without having taken over it would be "a great thing for the Green Bay Packers because it means they have maintained high level QB play for the next four years."
I think we can re re re hash this a bit, we still have a few days till TC
I went looking for Ron Wolfs opinion about this, and he agree's that if ya like a QB prospect then ya have to go with that gut feeling and take him, he then says it's near impossible to know if your picking the right guy, (I agree) he then says if possible he'd draft a QB in every draft, which he almost did and 4 of his mid round picks went on to start for other teams, Ted ted take a few QB's during his tenure but with less success.
The Way of the Wolf
The legacy and lessons of Hall of Fame GM Ron Wolf’s time with the Green Bay Packers live on today, through five former pupils who are current GMs for playoff-contending teams
the article touches on Wolfs approach with stocking the QB position, it's a long read, grab a cup of coffee.
with the news that the FO offered to extend Rodgers again and make him again the richest player it's harder to defend him, specially with Rons opinion that it is a power struggle and a desire to have more say with personal in drafts and UFA decisions I'am starting to accept that Rodgers has over stepped his position
https://www.si.com/nfl/2016/12/07/nfl-d ... ohn-dorsey
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 22 Jul 2021 07:51
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021 07:40
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 14:50
And then Rodgers, like lupe, like many national reporters, viewed the drafting of Jordan Love as a path-dependent, set timeline, for Rodgers' dismissal. I believe Rodgers misinterpreted that selection. I believe the team was taking a gamble to give them a possible successor in the event that Rodgers doesn't reclaim his old glory. The day of the draft, Gutey said himself that if Love reaches the end of his contract without having taken over it would be "a great thing for the Green Bay Packers because it means they have maintained high level QB play for the next four years."
I think we can re re re hash this a bit, we still have a few days till TC
I went looking for Ron Wolfs opinion about this, and he agree's that if ya like a QB prospect then ya have to go with that gut feeling and take him, he then says it's near impossible to know if your picking the right guy, (I agree) he then says if possible he'd draft a QB in every draft, which he almost did and 4 of his mid round picks went on to start for other teams, Ted ted take a few QB's during his tenure but with less success.
The Way of the Wolf
The legacy and lessons of Hall of Fame GM Ron Wolf’s time with the Green Bay Packers live on today, through five former pupils who are current GMs for playoff-contending teams
the article touches on Wolfs approach with stocking the QB position, it's a long read, grab a cup of coffee.
with the news that the FO offered to extend Rodgers again and make him again the richest player it's harder to defend him, specially with Rons opinion that it is a power struggle and a desire to have more say with personal in drafts and UFA decisions I'am starting to accept that Rodgers has over stepped his position
https://www.si.com/nfl/2016/12/07/nfl-d ... ohn-dorsey
Who are you and what have you done with yoop!!
mike, if you are in trouble, log on and PM me. I will do what I can to rescue you from this being who stole your log-in credentials.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 22 Jul 2021 07:59
by YoHoChecko
Ron Wolf totally spoiled us and got us all thinking that you could take a 4th rounder (Aaron Brooks), a 5th rounder (Mark Brunell), 6th rounder (Matt Hasselbeck), coach 'em up with the right staff, and they'll develop into starting-quality trade assets. I believed it myself, strongly, for a long time. That kind of success story is few and far between, though.
If you look around the league, starters that arise from outside of the first round are the exception. Off the top of my head, I can think of Tom Brady (6th round), Dak Prescott (4th round), Russell Wilson (3rd round), Jimmy G (2nd round--though soon to be replaced by a 1st), Jalen Hurts (2nd round)... not sure who to count for Houston, but I guess Tyrod Taylor (6th round)
...so that's 6 out of 32? If I missed one or two, we're still at least at 75-80% first rounders.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 22 Jul 2021 08:01
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021 07:51
Yoop wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021 07:40
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑21 Jul 2021 14:50
And then Rodgers, like lupe, like many national reporters, viewed the drafting of Jordan Love as a path-dependent, set timeline, for Rodgers' dismissal. I believe Rodgers misinterpreted that selection. I believe the team was taking a gamble to give them a possible successor in the event that Rodgers doesn't reclaim his old glory. The day of the draft, Gutey said himself that if Love reaches the end of his contract without having taken over it would be "a great thing for the Green Bay Packers because it means they have maintained high level QB play for the next four years."
I think we can re re re hash this a bit, we still have a few days till TC
I went looking for Ron Wolfs opinion about this, and he agree's that if ya like a QB prospect then ya have to go with that gut feeling and take him, he then says it's near impossible to know if your picking the right guy, (I agree) he then says if possible he'd draft a QB in every draft, which he almost did and 4 of his mid round picks went on to start for other teams, Ted ted take a few QB's during his tenure but with less success.
The Way of the Wolf
The legacy and lessons of Hall of Fame GM Ron Wolf’s time with the Green Bay Packers live on today, through five former pupils who are current GMs for playoff-contending teams
the article touches on Wolfs approach with stocking the QB position, it's a long read, grab a cup of coffee.
with the news that the FO offered to extend Rodgers again and make him again the richest player it's harder to defend him, specially with Rons opinion that it is a power struggle and a desire to have more say with personal in drafts and UFA decisions I'am starting to accept that Rodgers has over stepped his position
https://www.si.com/nfl/2016/12/07/nfl-d ... ohn-dorsey
Who are you and what have you done with yoop!!
mike, if you are in trouble, log on and PM me. I will do what I can to rescue you from this being who stole your log-in credentials.
haha, heres a bit more of the article to entice you to read the whole thing.
Wolf’s most notable stamp on modern scouting is his view on quarterbacks: While there’s only room for one starter, you can never acquire too many. In Wolf’s world, it is worthwhile to draft a QB every year, no matter the current roster situation. “Looking now from afar, the best quarterback in the game is a sixth-round draft choice [Tom Brady], and that should alert everybody,” Wolf says. “Then you look at what the Cowboys have accomplished with a fourth-round draft choice. I mean, it tells you what you should do. Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.”
Consider that in seven out of eight drafts from 1992 to ’99, Wolf drafted a quarterback, even after Brett Favre was entrenched as the starter. “I learned very early in this game, if you don’t have a quarterback, you don’t have a chance,” Wolf said. “We were very lucky that we had a unique quarterback that never missed a game. But that didn’t stop me from drafting in late rounds. It’s the premiere position, and you better be able to cover yourself.”
In acquiring extra arms—among them Ty Detmer (1992 ninth round), Mark Brunell (’93 fifth round), Matt Hasselbeck (’98 sixth round) and Aaron Brooks (’99 fourth round), all of whom became starters for other teams—Wolf says he was bringing in players to challenge Favre. But more importantly, he was looking for raw talent to cultivate for backup roles, or to dangle for a trade and acquire even more draft picks.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 22 Jul 2021 08:07
by Yoop
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021 07:59
Ron Wolf totally spoiled us and got us all thinking that you could take a 4th rounder (Aaron Brooks), a 5th rounder (Mark Brunell), 6th rounder (Matt Hasselbeck), coach 'em up with the right staff, and they'll develop into starting-quality trade assets. I believed it myself, strongly, for a long time. That kind of success story is few and far between, though.
If you look around the league, starters that arise from outside of the first round are the exception. Off the top of my head, I can think of Tom Brady (6th round), Dak Prescott (4th round), Russell Wilson (3rd round), Jimmy G (2nd round--though soon to be replaced by a 1st), Jalen Hurts (2nd round)... not sure who to count for Houston, but I guess Tyrod Taylor (6th round)
...so that's 6 out of 32? If I missed one or two, we're still at least at 75-80% first rounders.
see I think ya have as good a chance in the 2nd and later as ya do taking one later then the first couple in round one, the problem is imo that teams wont devote the time or money for a top notch QB Guru to coach up these later round players, and Holmgren and staff where very good at it.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 22 Jul 2021 08:12
by YoHoChecko
Yoop wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021 08:07
see I think ya have as good a chance in the 2nd and later as ya do taking one later then the first couple in round one, the problem is imo that teams wont devote the time or money for a top notch QB Guru to coach up these later round players, and Holmgren and staff where very good at it.
I agree that NFL teams don't devote the proper resources and patience to developing QBs, but also that (just like the Packers staff in the 90s), it's hard to hold onto those guys. That's why the Kyle Shanahan staff has been scattered throughout the league, including to us.
Re: Rodgers wants out
Posted: 22 Jul 2021 08:18
by NCF
Yoop wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021 08:07
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021 07:59
Ron Wolf totally spoiled us and got us all thinking that you could take a 4th rounder (Aaron Brooks), a 5th rounder (Mark Brunell), 6th rounder (Matt Hasselbeck), coach 'em up with the right staff, and they'll develop into starting-quality trade assets. I believed it myself, strongly, for a long time. That kind of success story is few and far between, though.
If you look around the league, starters that arise from outside of the first round are the exception. Off the top of my head, I can think of Tom Brady (6th round), Dak Prescott (4th round), Russell Wilson (3rd round), Jimmy G (2nd round--though soon to be replaced by a 1st), Jalen Hurts (2nd round)... not sure who to count for Houston, but I guess Tyrod Taylor (6th round)
...so that's 6 out of 32? If I missed one or two, we're still at least at 75-80% first rounders.
see I think ya have as good a chance in the 2nd and later as ya do taking one later then the first couple in round one, the problem is imo that teams wont devote the time or money for a top notch QB Guru to coach up these later round players, and Holmgren and staff where very good at it.
McCarthy did it with Matt Flynn. The problem is not that coaches can't coach anymore but rather the CBA prevents coaches from coaching these QB's anymore to the level and with the amount of time needed. You absolutely never know, but I highly doubt that Aaron Rodgers is Aaron Rodgers if he was drafted post-2011. That is also where this notion that if you draft a QB they have to play must stop. Love needs all the time possible to get ready. All these guys do. None of them are getting it. For every Justin Herbert that is thrown into the fire and has some early success there is a Mitch Trubisky on the other side. Learning on the job is great, in theory, but it is destroying a lot of these really, really talented prospects.