Packers Huddle

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Oct 2022 21:29

Not sure why it matters whether or not rookies become "elite" WRs by the playoffs. It matters if they're useful and functional and can provide options when the veterans are taken away or their limitations are exposed.

Justis Mosqueda is tracking Doubs as compared to other WRs drafted in the 4th round or later and so far only Marques Colston has been more productive through 4 games, so yeah, it's right to wonder about when we last saw something like we're seeing from Doubs, relative to draft status. Darnell Mooney also rings a bell there (5th round, 61 catches for 630 yards)... but Doubs has been more well-rounded than Mooney was.

Christian Watson is further behind, but his speed has been evident both on his deep bomb drop where he torched the coverage and on his jet sweep 2 carries for 22 yards (15 and 7, with one TD) and his measurables and attitude put his ceiling as high as anyone, but we all expected the competition jump and the rawness to take some time. So sure, he's unlikely to be an elite WR by week 17, but he certainly can be an occasional gamebreaking weapon throughout the playoffs when teams focus on our short game and run game.

Most 4th round players don't get this much opportunity. He is getting it because there is nothing else - no chance he gets these reps behind an established group.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Oct 2022 19:35

German_Panzer wrote: ↑

03 Oct 2022 19:24

In a couple of games certain teams will start to rebuild, meaning: get rid of heavy baggage and if this baggage includes a top WR who wants a cheap SB and is willing to come then go for it, we might have no next season (with #12). But it has to be an elusive guy, we don‘t need another average WR - we have enough.

Ah yes, the trusty nameless elite WR decaying on a bad team while playing on an affordable and tradable contract... my favorite player.

we love those guys

at risk of repeating myself, but Lafluer needs to create some interior routes to get these receivers open, some double crossers, trail routes, and some designed routes for Jones and Dillon.

why is it the only routes we see used with Watson are go routes, he's done well with the end arounds, yac seems to be what he does best, throw him short passes.

Doubs is a fast study, but he has to learn to protect the ball better, I think he will.

after rewatching some of the game I think Lafluers vanilla pass schemes are a big problem that Rodgers makes even worse with his inaccurate throws, that first half was brutal, lazar accurate to Lazard on one throw, then misses Doubs by 5 yards a couple plays later, his over throw to Watson on the side line looked deliberate.

As Romo said, ( now I'am add libing a bit here, I don't know exactly whats going throw our yippi QB's head) he's teaching these receivers that they have to be at the pitch point cause he wont adjust and simply throw it to where ever they are, that miss to Doubs looked exactly like that, obviously thats what receivers need to do, but expecting rookies to be perfect in the 4th game is a bit much.

then to completely turn it around in the 2nd half leads me to think Lafluer read Rodgers the riot act at half time, I know I sure as hell would have, Rodgers has been sporadic and inconsistent in all 4 games, and people blame it on the receivers, imo Rodgers deserves his share of the blame along with whom ever is drawing up these pass routes.

and I doubt we see a better receiver brought in.

Yoop wrote: ↑

04 Oct 2022 07:29

at risk of repeating myself, but Lafluer needs to create some interior routes to get these receivers open, some double crossers, trail routes, and some designed routes for Jones and Dillon.

why is it the only routes we see used with Watson are go routes, he's done well with the end arounds, yac seems to be what he does best, throw him short passes.

Doubs is a fast study, but he has to learn to protect the ball better, I think he will.

after rewatching some of the game I think Lafluers vanilla pass schemes are a big problem that Rodgers makes even worse with his inaccurate throws, that first half was brutal, lazar accurate to Lazard on one throw, then misses Doubs by 5 yards a couple plays later, his over throw to Watson on the side line looked deliberate.

As Romo said, ( now I'am add libing a bit here, I don't know exactly whats going throw our yippi QB's head) he's teaching these receivers that they have to be at the pitch point cause he wont adjust and simply throw it to where ever they are, that miss to Doubs looked exactly like that, obviously thats what receivers need to do, but expecting rookies to be perfect in the 4th game is a bit much.

then to completely turn it around in the 2nd half leads me to think Lafluer read Rodgers the riot act at half time, I know I sure as hell would have, Rodgers has been sporadic and inconsistent in all 4 games, and people blame it on the receivers, imo Rodgers deserves his share of the blame along with whom ever is drawing up these pass routes.

and I doubt we see a better receiver brought in.

Yoop, I agree they need to give Watson some short passes, but do you ever watch the What You Might Have Missed videos on Packers.com? This week, we can see that LaFleur was using Watson in motion to influence the linebackers in the run game, and running him deep to clear out areas for other receivers. LaFleur is setting up defenses to get burned if they ignore him (like with that end-around he scored on).

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Oct 2022 21:29

Justis Mosqueda is tracking Doubs as compared to other WRs drafted in the 4th round or later and so far only Marques Colston has been more productive through 4 games, so yeah, it's right to wonder about when we last saw something like we're seeing from Doubs, relative to draft status. Darnell Mooney also rings a bell there (5th round, 61 catches for 630 yards)... but Doubs has been more well-rounded than Mooney was.

Yeah but I remember, at the time, similar things being said about MVS and the counterpoint was the eye test. Like people were remarking how productive MVS technically was, but he never really looked elite or even like much of a factor.

I guess to that point, Doubs is superior to MVS based on the eye test; he looks like someone who can actually do something out there. The only thing is that his drops and whatnot have been disappointing, not because they were catches that he should have necessarily made, but because they were tough catches that someone who was on his way to becoming an elite talent would have caught.

Can WRs get better at catching? I always sort of assumed it is one of those things that they've got what they've got, at this point. You'd think since their entire job is catching, they'd be maxxed out by now on that one particular skill. Does ball tracking ever improve as a WR's career goes on?

Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑

04 Oct 2022 12:43

Yoop wrote: ↑

04 Oct 2022 07:29

at risk of repeating myself, but Lafluer needs to create some interior routes to get these receivers open, some double crossers, trail routes, and some designed routes for Jones and Dillon.

why is it the only routes we see used with Watson are go routes, he's done well with the end arounds, yac seems to be what he does best, throw him short passes.

Doubs is a fast study, but he has to learn to protect the ball better, I think he will.

after rewatching some of the game I think Lafluers vanilla pass schemes are a big problem that Rodgers makes even worse with his inaccurate throws, that first half was brutal, lazar accurate to Lazard on one throw, then misses Doubs by 5 yards a couple plays later, his over throw to Watson on the side line looked deliberate.

As Romo said, ( now I'am add libing a bit here, I don't know exactly whats going throw our yippi QB's head) he's teaching these receivers that they have to be at the pitch point cause he wont adjust and simply throw it to where ever they are, that miss to Doubs looked exactly like that, obviously thats what receivers need to do, but expecting rookies to be perfect in the 4th game is a bit much.

then to completely turn it around in the 2nd half leads me to think Lafluer read Rodgers the riot act at half time, I know I sure as hell would have, Rodgers has been sporadic and inconsistent in all 4 games, and people blame it on the receivers, imo Rodgers deserves his share of the blame along with whom ever is drawing up these pass routes.

and I doubt we see a better receiver brought in.

Yoop, I agree they need to give Watson some short passes, but do you ever watch the What You Might Have Missed videos on Packers.com? This week, we can see that LaFleur was using Watson in motion to influence the linebackers in the run game, and running him deep to clear out areas for other receivers. LaFleur is setting up defenses to get burned if they ignore him (like with that end-around he scored on).

No I missed those video's, ( I'll try and find them in the future, time permitting)

I'am always a day late reading a lot of stuff from other pro game analysis, so I need to be more up to date with that as well, slowing down a bit I guess

just read about Rodgers comments from the McCaffy show, he admits that Watson has been open and he needs to get him the ball more, I know we have to use his speed to force defenses to play honest, but he is to valuable with yac ability for just that, Lupe said and I tend to agree, he still needs work at tracking the deep pass, we saw it again against NE and it probably played a part with his drop against Detroit, using him with 10 yrd routes will make that easier for him, that was my point, we saw his short area quicks and run ability with the jet sweeps, that kind of talent should garner more of it.

imo whatever you can do to bolster confidence in a young player is what you should concentrate on him doing, throwing deep passes that he struggles to catch doesn't help that, I understand using him and taking a shot does force the defense to honor it, but mix in some short pass routes to.

I know I'am harping on this, but Watson has massive talent, and the sooner he gets to use it the better.

I think Rodgers is finally getting this point, at least according to his remarks to McCaffy

texas wrote: ↑

04 Oct 2022 16:27

Can WRs get better at catching? I always sort of assumed it is one of those things that they've got what they've got, at this point. You'd think since their entire job is catching, they'd be maxxed out by now on that one particular skill. Does ball tracking ever improve as a WR's career goes on?

I would say yes to both points.

one thing to think about is the QB's throwing at this level tend to throw harder, faster, so the delivery tends to be on top of you quicker then when in college.

learning better body technique/positioning helps to be more ready for the catch while also helping to supin the hands.

teams spend mega bucks on adjustable jugs machines so they can vary the passes

just a few reasons why imo

It’s critical Watson becomes an active member of the WR crew by playoff time. Luckily playoff time is a long way away still.

Watson has practiced in the NFL for like 3 weeks. Watson has also only played in 3 games.

He is significantly behind Doubs in terms of being available. I am not concerned yet. We are bringing him along nicely. The only thing that stinks is his first pass.

That was too bad.

Honestly botht he talk about Watson AND the questions about Doubs' mistakes (which are admittedly less rampant here) are just insane at this stage.

Wondering if players get better at catching? Davante had a drop problem. James Jones had a drop problem. Plenty of players have drop problems and work them out. I do agree that there are different elements to it. If someone fights the ball and looks unnatural all the time, it's probably always going to be a pain point (like T.O. for instance--the guy was elite but dropped double digit passes per year for a lot of his career).

But if a guy can make good catches and show natural hands at times, but drops balls occasionally too often, then I think it's more of a mentality and mindset. Players can a) add hand and upper body strength to better grip at the catch point, and b) develop the confidence and mindset that if the ball is in the air, it's theirs... then things can improve quite a bit.

Comparing Watson to MVS on ball tracking, hands, and awareness this early really rubs me wrong, because to me, the eye test says absolutely not. That's subjective, and I get that it's subjective, and I'm arguing against someone like Texas or maybe DrJ, who have their own ability to make their own subjective observations, but I think we're actually remembering year 3 or 4 MVS and comparing it to week 4 Watson. MVS improved his awareness, hands, and ball tracking to get to average-ish proficiency at them.

Watson showed both in college and right away in Minnesota, that he can track the ball. The catch failed, but dang that was perfect otherwise. It was disappointing, but also quite promising for me. The sample size right now is so small that any mistake looks like it might happen 30% of the time, but it's just a mistake, by a rookie, who missed most of training camp and who played against lower-level college competition, even if he played at a high level there.

I just don't envision a guy with Watson's talent, work ethic, and mentality failing. His floor, to me, is fast Lazard. That's his absolute floor. And fast Lazard would be a pretty fun player, and an important one to our offense and scheme. His ceiling is, gosh, tough to really say.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

05 Oct 2022 10:11

Comparing Watson to MVS on ball tracking, hands, and awareness this early really rubs me wrong, because to me, the eye test says absolutely not.

well who are we to believe, he wasn't in position to catch a sideline pass against NE this week, and according to Rodgers reaction the fault was with Watson, hence my position to get him the ball with shorter passes

The one thing I will go out on a limb and say....

Romeo Doubs is going to be a phenomenal pass catcher. That guy grabs balls. He snatches them with this extended arms and hands. He will get better at holding onto the ball after the catch.

Doubs is significantly farther along than Adams at this point in his career. In fact, it wasn't until year 3 where Adams got to Doubs level.

I would honestly say Doubs reminds me somewhat like Jennings 2006 season in terms of immediate impact.

And Watson is just a freaking Gazelle. My goodness is that dude smooth.

Where did I compare MVS to Watson???

I just said Watson must be an active part of the O come playoff time, and I said luckily there is time for that to happen.

I also said it’s obvious Watson is a playmaker, I was just unsure about him as a pass catcher.

I didn’t say he was a bad pass catcher, or couldn’t catch, I said I was unsure at this point.

MVS and Watson May prove to be comparable in terms of being able to catch the ball, but they don’t look the same at all in terms of athleticism. MVS is clunky and straight line or bust. Watson is smooth smooth. Fluid.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

05 Oct 2022 11:38

MVS and Watson May prove to be comparable in terms of being able to catch the ball, but they don’t look the same at all in terms of athleticism. MVS is clunky and straight line or bust. Watson is smooth smooth. Fluid.

Watson is pretty straight line at the moment. Example in the Bears game he took the first jet sweep and just ran fast into a defender and got smucked. The camera panned to Rodgers and he had a wry grin. Doubs is much more the short pass guy who can make defenders miss right now.

Frankly I am very happy with both. Rookies make mistakes. It has only been 4 games. We are looking at 2 all stars in progress. Just hope that the Packers can manage to keep both Lazard and Tonyan, then we will be looking at the best receiving corps in the league - and it won't even be close.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

05 Oct 2022 11:26

Where did I compare MVS to Watson???

You didn't. Texas did. I mentioned you both. I'm responding to a generalized theme of what I see and hear here, specific comments, and the broader Packers internet. It's not all tit-for-tat, direct responses; otherwise I would have quoted. No worries.

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

05 Oct 2022 12:18

Frankly I am very happy with both. Rookies make mistakes. It has only been 4 games. We are looking at 2 all stars in progress. Just hope that the Packers can manage to keep both Lazard and Tonyan, then we will be looking at the best receiving corps in the league - and it won't even be close.

I think both the market values of Lazard and Tonyan will be easily absorbed by GB. Neither of them should be all that expensive.

Drj820 wrote: ↑

05 Oct 2022 11:38

MVS and Watson May prove to be comparable in terms of being able to catch the ball, but they don’t look the same at all in terms of athleticism. MVS is clunky and straight line or bust. Watson is smooth smooth. Fluid.

right, we just have not been allowed to see Watson prove those skills much yet, mostly because Lafluer and Rodgers are saving him for the playoffs, he's our secret weapon

we didn't spend two 2nd round picks to move to slot 34 to have him become Scantling, a mostly straight line burner whos greatest contribution was freezing a safety.

Rodgers was saving face admitting that Watson has been open and he should have been feeding him the ball a little more, so obvious to anyone that watches the game versus just watching the ball.

use to be I was the guy defending Rodgers around here, since my stance has 180'd now everyone else is