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Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 10 Apr 2023 12:13
by BSA
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Apr 2023 12:07
BSA are you a yooper?
No, but I can see the promised land from just over the border in Vilas County.
I met a guy who goes by the popular nickname "Yoop" at a Lambeau tailgate - just wondering if that was you
Cheers
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 10 Apr 2023 12:16
by Yoop
Labrev wrote: ↑10 Apr 2023 11:42
What makes drafting a "backup" EDGE high justifiable is, you can still play those guys! And their contribution is significant. Philadelphia illustrates that nicely, paying big bucks for Hason Reddick (a greater investment of resources than a first-round draft pick) even when they had former first round pick Brandon Graham, who is still a very effective pass-rusher.
For one, it's not like QB or OL where they only play when the starter is hurt; every team rotates EDGEs. Calling them "backups" at all is a misnomer because they are not just waiting around to play. #2 guys can and sometimes do get
half the snaps. They are playing significant snaps, and can measurably impact the game.
For two, it helps keep your starters fresh, so the true starters' play does not taper off as the game goes on. For three, it puts stress on the opposing offense. They can't relax when the starters come out of the game because even the #2 guys are tough in their own ways.
there are other positions that rush the passer then just edge, we are the worst in the league stopping the run because we seem to value edge and 5 tech over 3 and 1 tech.
I care less about D&D concerning top 20 picks then I do drafting a guy that can produce production early on a position of need, and I always will.
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 10 Apr 2023 12:20
by BSA
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Apr 2023 12:16
we are the worst in the league stopping the run because we seem to value edge and 5 tech over 3 and 1 tech.
I'm not sure, but I think part of the issue is Barry ( and others DCs) asking their DL to play a gap and a half. There are 1- gappers and 2- gappers, but Fangio and other DCs started the concept of "a gap and a half" - and none of the DL come into the League with experience in that tactic.
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 10 Apr 2023 12:52
by YoHoChecko
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Apr 2023 12:16
we are the worst in the league stopping the run because we seem to value edge and 5 tech over 3 and 1 tech.
We literally don’t have a 5-tech on the roster and spent a 1st round pick on a 3-tech last year. Clark is ideally a 3 or 1. TJ Slaton is a 1. Ford is a 1. I guess C. Slayton might be a 5?
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 10 Apr 2023 12:54
by Labrev
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Apr 2023 12:16
there are other positions that rush the passer then just edge, we are the worst in the league stopping the run because we seem to value edge and 5 tech over 3 and 1 tech.
I actually agree with you on this one. DL are way more valuable than EDGE in general and even when it comes to where the pass-rush comes from, inside is more disruptive and tougher to neutralize. I would build from the inside out, and our interior has been too weak.
My larger point, though, was that taking an EDGE when you have (nominal) starters already is not entirely unsound, and can quite arguably justifiable.
I care less about D&D concerning top 20 picks then I do drafting a guy that can produce production early on a position of need, and I always will.
I disagree on this one. To me, if a guy peaks higher than a more immediate contributor, you end up getting more overall contribution than the ready guys.
But I will admit that if you are in the championship push like we were in 2020 and 2021, it makes sense to have ceiling take a backseat to immediate impact. Guys like Bulaga played an important role in our 2010 run. But you can also get players like Amari Rodgers when you do that, who was not an impressive or high-ceiling guy, but we took him thinking we would get a plug-and-play slot.
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 10 Apr 2023 12:57
by Yoop
BSA wrote: ↑10 Apr 2023 12:20
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Apr 2023 12:16
we are the worst in the league stopping the run because we seem to value edge and 5 tech over 3 and 1 tech.
I'm not sure, but I think part of the issue is Barry ( and others DCs) asking their DL to play a gap and a half. There are 1- gappers and 2- gappers, but Fangio and other DCs started the concept of "a gap and a half" - and none of the DL come into the League with experience in that tactic.
thats pretty complicated for a old fart like me lol, I often see both T's in 4i, and that means the ILB's are 2 gapping in that set, and it means they will have to shed blocks to make the tackles because they have no protection.
it's been one extreme to the other imho, Capers liked the big 2 gapping tackles, it helped Hawk, Bishop, stuff the run, but we where weak against the pass, now we have a couple of 3 dn lbers, but they are on there own against the run more, I was hoping drafting Walker, and coupled with Campbell that we'd see more base front, but we really don't have a drop and cover OLB/DE, so that limits using a 30 front, ya can't rush 5 all the time.
however I'am starting to accept that ya have to attempt to improve pass rush any way possible, up tempo offense has taken center stage, and coaches are scheming receivers open more now imo then ever before, and coverage alone can't stop it.
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 10 Apr 2023 13:10
by Yoop
Labrev wrote: ↑10 Apr 2023 12:54
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Apr 2023 12:16
there are other positions that rush the passer then just edge, we are the worst in the league stopping the run because we seem to value edge and 5 tech over 3 and 1 tech.
I actually agree with you on this one. DL are way more valuable than EDGE in general and even when it comes to where the pass-rush comes from, inside is more disruptive and tougher to neutralize. I would build from the inside out, and our interior has been too weak.
My larger point, though, was that taking an EDGE when you have (nominal) starters already is not entirely unsound, and can quite arguably justifiable.
I care less about D&D concerning top 20 picks then I do drafting a guy that can produce production early on a position of need, and I always will.
I disagree on this one. To me, if a guy peaks higher than a more immediate contributor, you end up getting more overall contribution than the ready guys.
But I will admit that if you are in the championship push like we were in 2020 and 2021, it makes sense to have ceiling take a backseat to immediate impact. Guys like Bulaga played an important role in our 2010 run. But you can also get players like Amari Rodgers when you do that, who was not an impressive or high-ceiling guy, but we took him thinking we would get a plug-and-play slot.
I can more easily live with a 3rd round Amari groom and bust, then I can with a top 20 pick doing the same, and when ya figure the hit rate of top 20 picks being maybe 60% to at least start and be average, then picking high floor players takes priority for me.
when your playing Kenny Clark 800 snaps a season, while you have Gary polishing pine then imo you deserve a frontal lobotomy lol, or at minimum have your legs shaved with a dry razor
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 10 Apr 2023 13:18
by Labrev
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Apr 2023 13:10
when your playing Kenny Clark 800 snaps a season, while you have Gary polishing pine then imo you deserve a frontal lobotomy lol, or at minimum have your legs shaved with a dry razor
Again, EDGE3 (be it Gary or any other) doesn't "polish pine;" they play. And their contribution impacts the game measurably.
Gary could very much have contributed greatly in Year 2, Z was playing the run poorly and Preston was in a down year. It made no sense to play him as little as they did, but this is a well-documented problem with our coaching staff in the MLF era at *all* positions: playing the wrong guys too much, playing the good talent too little.
Just think of EDGE as WR for defense!
(oh no, now you will never want anything else on D
).
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 11 Apr 2023 11:13
by BF004
Man, I might have offered up a 4th for him.
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 11 Apr 2023 11:22
by YoHoChecko
BF004 wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023 11:13
Man, I might have offered up a 4th for him.
Why? He's been legit bad and we have a ton of CBs
I'm fine letting someone else gamble a pick and roster spot on the reclamation project.
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 11 Apr 2023 12:57
by salmar80
Okudah was a poster boy for a can't miss pick...
NFL.com had him with higher grade than any player in this year's draft: "Head coach and general manager's dream prospect with blue-chip physical traits, mental makeup and personal character. He has size, length and foot quickness to road-block press release and elite closing burst to close catch windows or eliminate yards after catch."
Busts like this make me doubt EVERYONE.
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 11 Apr 2023 14:46
by lupedafiasco
salmar80 wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023 12:57
Okudah was a poster boy for a can't miss pick...
NFL.com had him with higher grade than any player in this year's draft: "Head coach and general manager's dream prospect with blue-chip physical traits, mental makeup and personal character. He has size, length and foot quickness to road-block press release and elite closing burst to close catch windows or eliminate yards after catch."
Busts like this make me doubt EVERYONE.
Meh. His athletic testing didnt show he was this top CB prospect he was made out to be. I think it looks similar to Will Anderson.
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 11 Apr 2023 14:47
by go pak go
When yoop talks about an instant "plug and play" draft pick...Okudah was your man.
He was can't miss at an easy position to excel early.
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 11 Apr 2023 15:15
by Pckfn23
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 11 Apr 2023 16:20
by BF004
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023 11:22
BF004 wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023 11:13
Man, I might have offered up a 4th for him.
Why? He's been legit bad and we have a ton of CBs
I'm fine letting someone else gamble a pick and roster spot on the reclamation project.
I just think there is a pretty fair chance the lions simply failed him rather than he’s that bad at football.
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 11 Apr 2023 16:35
by Labrev
He's probably cooked, sadly. Missing that much time early in your career really stunts your development. I mean Elgton Jenkins looked bad for a few weeks after returning from the ACL injury, and that's a guy who has played in this league at a high level.
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 11 Apr 2023 16:38
by Labrev
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 11 Apr 2023 16:48
by BF004
Bucs would be very wise to try to get something near what the bears got for Roquan.
And aging off ball LB on a premium contract but what they need this year and likely next. They are in much worse cap shape than us.
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 11 Apr 2023 16:50
by Scott4Pack
He probably sees his ship sinking in TB.
Re: Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023
Posted: 13 Apr 2023 12:30
by BF004