From Lambeau to Lombardi, Holmgren, McCarthy and LaFleur and from Starr to Favre, Rodgers and now Jordan Love we’re talking Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers football. This Packers Forum is the place to talk NFL football and everything Packers. So, pull up a keyboard, make yourself at home and let’s talk some Packers football.
What's interesting is you say you don't think it's fair to compare Love with Rodgers but you seem to be the one holding Love to a higher bar than Rodgers.
I'm the one saying that Love is likely a year or two away from where Rodgers was when he took over so we're probably going to have to just be patient and wait for Love to develop, be that taking his lumps as our starter or on the bench.
Ultimately it's almost impossible for you to 'evaluate' Love. You've hardly got anything to work from. And anyway, even if you did, he's probably not ready yet. If it took Rodgers 3 years, it'll likely take Love at least as long. So any 'evaluation' that isn't "well, we just don't know yet and it wouldn't be fair to prejudge him" just comes off as silly to me.
Bottom line is, it will all get resolved in a few months. Rodgers will either stay or go and that will set the table for Love to either start or be traded or be kept for another year as the backup.
We all have to hold him to that bar, or more so packers management because we are swapping Rodgers out for him. If we can have Rodgers and choose Love than he has to be compared to Rodgers.
Now if Rodgers leaves and it isnt packers choice than they do not need to be compared.
But right now we have to say who is better for this team in terms of play, contract years, longevity - all those things matter as variables and who is better for the packers going forward.
Last edited by bud fox on 10 Jan 2022 21:41, edited 1 time in total.
They trusted Rodgers to take over after his 3rd season.
Love is nearing the end of his second and his first was disrupted by a pandemic.
And Love was a much less touted prospect.
So on that timeline Love might just be ready come the end of next year. But considering he's faced more challenges than Rodgers and is less talented maybe he's another two years away from getting good.
Now if Rodgers leaves, Love may need to learn on the job and it will be tough to watch for a year or two. But according to this timeline we may have to just live through it and wait to see if things click for Love like they did for Rodgers.
The reason you and I are having a tough time engaging in debate is because I have said I’m not gonna base my evaluations of love on anything to do with Rodgers. Because I don’t think it’s fair to Love, and bc I think Rodgers is way to much of an outlier to compare with someone like Love.
But you are basing everything off a comparison to the timeline of Rodgers, so nothing seems to count for now until Love is in the league longer than when Rodgers took over and played well. I don’t think the career of Rodgers is replicable.
Thats why this is tough. I’m already evaluating Love. Not waiting until after year 3, bc Rodgers started after year 3.
What's interesting is you say you don't think it's fair to compare Love with Rodgers but you seem to be the one holding Love to a higher bar than Rodgers.
I'm the one saying that Love is likely a year or two away from where Rodgers was when he took over so we're probably going to have to just be patient and wait for Love to develop, be that taking his lumps as our starter or on the bench.
Ultimately it's almost impossible for you to 'evaluate' Love. You've hardly got anything to work from. And anyway, even if you did, he's probably not ready yet. If it took Rodgers 3 years, it'll likely take Love at least as long. So any 'evaluation' that isn't "well, we just don't know yet and it wouldn't be fair to prejudge him" just comes off as silly to me.
Bottom line is, it will all get resolved in a few months. Rodgers will either stay or go and that will set the table for Love to either start or be traded or be kept for another year as the backup.
See, as i was saying, by the peremeters you are debating from...Love can go out and throw 273848383 straight interceptions, but as long as it is within year one, two, or three then I can’t say anything because Rodgers wasn’t ready to start at this point either.
You’ve got me iñ a corner with that. Id rather judge Love as I see him and compare him to almost any other year two qb in history.
Yeah I just don't get the whole "when can I evaluate Love yet?"
I don't know....maybe at least until he has played 8 quarters? Like it's kind of a stupid question to ask. Like the answer right now of it being so early is pretty obvious.
I get that the Packers have to make a decision this off-season but honestly I just don't think Love will be part of that decision anyways.
It's mostly about what Rodgers wants and if the Packers can give it to him.
My guess is the Packers won't be able to give Rodgers what he wants because we sucked our resources dry for this 2019 - 2021 run.
Yeah I just don't get the whole "when can I evaluate Love yet?"
I don't know....maybe at least until he has played 8 quarters? Like it's kind of a stupid question to ask. Like the answer right now of it being so early is pretty obvious.
I get that the Packers have to make a decision this off-season but honestly I just don't think Love will be part of that decision anyways.
It's mostly about what Rodgers wants and if the Packers can give it to him.
My guess is the Packers won't be able to give Rodgers what he wants because we sucked our resources dry for this 2019 - 2021 run.
I just don't see how it is possible to let an MVP QB go. The only way I see him leaving is if they had an undisclosed agreement prior to this season, that it is it and he is traded no matter what.
Yeah I just don't get the whole "when can I evaluate Love yet?"
I don't know....maybe at least until he has played 8 quarters? Like it's kind of a stupid question to ask. Like the answer right now of it being so early is pretty obvious.
I get that the Packers have to make a decision this off-season but honestly I just don't think Love will be part of that decision anyways.
It's mostly about what Rodgers wants and if the Packers can give it to him.
My guess is the Packers won't be able to give Rodgers what he wants because we sucked our resources dry for this 2019 - 2021 run.
I just don't see how it is possible to let an MVP QB go. The only way I see him leaving is if they had an undisclosed agreement prior to this season, that it is it and he is traded no matter what.
Well I can keep explaining the reasons why and you will just continue to see how it's not possible so I am not going to continue to talk about the math.
Yeah I just don't get the whole "when can I evaluate Love yet?"
I don't know....maybe at least until he has played 8 quarters? Like it's kind of a stupid question to ask. Like the answer right now of it being so early is pretty obvious.
I get that the Packers have to make a decision this off-season but honestly I just don't think Love will be part of that decision anyways.
It's mostly about what Rodgers wants and if the Packers can give it to him.
My guess is the Packers won't be able to give Rodgers what he wants because we sucked our resources dry for this 2019 - 2021 run.
I just don't see how it is possible to let an MVP QB go. The only way I see him leaving is if they had an undisclosed agreement prior to this season, that it is it and he is traded no matter what.
Well I can keep explaining the reasons why and you will just continue to see how it's not possible so I am not going to continue to talk about the math.
Settle down - you like Yoho.
You just write a post and I write a comment with regards to it and woah.
I understand your reasons - the cap is a mess. It is obviously what has to be considered and how that comes out with respect to keeping Rodgers and somewhat blowing up the team.
Last edited by bud fox on 10 Jan 2022 21:57, edited 1 time in total.
The reason you and I are having a tough time engaging in debate is because I have said I’m not gonna base my evaluations of love on anything to do with Rodgers. Because I don’t think it’s fair to Love, and bc I think Rodgers is way to much of an outlier to compare with someone like Love.
But you are basing everything off a comparison to the timeline of Rodgers, so nothing seems to count for now until Love is in the league longer than when Rodgers took over and played well. I don’t think the career of Rodgers is replicable.
Thats why this is tough. I’m already evaluating Love. Not waiting until after year 3, bc Rodgers started after year 3.
What's interesting is you say you don't think it's fair to compare Love with Rodgers but you seem to be the one holding Love to a higher bar than Rodgers.
I'm the one saying that Love is likely a year or two away from where Rodgers was when he took over so we're probably going to have to just be patient and wait for Love to develop, be that taking his lumps as our starter or on the bench.
Ultimately it's almost impossible for you to 'evaluate' Love. You've hardly got anything to work from. And anyway, even if you did, he's probably not ready yet. If it took Rodgers 3 years, it'll likely take Love at least as long. So any 'evaluation' that isn't "well, we just don't know yet and it wouldn't be fair to prejudge him" just comes off as silly to me.
Bottom line is, it will all get resolved in a few months. Rodgers will either stay or go and that will set the table for Love to either start or be traded or be kept for another year as the backup.
See, as i was saying, by the peremeters you are debating from...Love can go out and throw 273848383 straight interceptions, but as long as it is within year one, two, or three then I can’t say anything because Rodgers wasn’t ready to start at this point either.
You’ve got me iñ a corner with that. Id rather judge Love as I see him and compare him to almost any other year two qb in history.
Yes, you are in a bit of a corner. Not because anyone put you there, I think it's just the reality of the situation. Your attempt to judge if Love is ready to start for the Packers based on scraps of mop up duty in year 2 is futile. Thankfully the decision will be made for you anyway in a few months.
I just don't see how it is possible to let an MVP QB go.
Why? If they can't pay what he wants...then there's nothing left to do
No team in the history has traded an NFL MVP Qb
They can pay him it is just a question of what pieces we lose in the process. I think they will come to the decision that we will be worse off moving him than moving others. I note the assets we will get in return for Rodgers is part of that consideration.
I just don't see how it is possible to let an MVP QB go. The only way I see him leaving is if they had an undisclosed agreement prior to this season, that it is it and he is traded no matter what.
Well I can keep explaining the reasons why and you will just continue to see how it's not possible so I am not going to continue to talk about the math.
Settle down - you like Yoho.
You just write a post or write a comment with regards to it and woah.
I understand your reasons - the cap is a mess. It is obviously what has to be considered and how that comes out with respect to keeping Rodgers and somewhat blowing up the team.
Yeah. Like that is the reason. You make it sound like it's a small deal.
It is the deal.
I honestly am surprised you're so hell bent on keeping him at all costs. I remember fully well your complaining of Packers rosters that were inadequate for Rodgers and how much of an injustice that was. I'm surprised you want that for Rodgers again.
We will not be a SB team again with Rodgers after this year I less we have a miracle draft or two. So I view it as what's the point for both sides just treading. Let Rodgers have a shot elsewhere and let us get resources to rebuild.
I just don't see how it is possible to let an MVP QB go. The only way I see him leaving is if they had an undisclosed agreement prior to this season, that it is it and he is traded no matter what.
It seems to me that Rodgers may well have already decided his future is best served outside Green Bay. The Packers will be in cap hell and thus dismantling the team. We may not be keeping his HOF WR Devante.
Seems highly possible he's already decided he'll be gone, probably to Denver or another team that has the cap space to build a winner around him. Maybe that's why he's feeling all sentimental and grateful.
And if you're Rodgers, he knows he'll either finish with a Superbowl (perfect way to go out) or another defeat (needs a fresh start). Either way, I could imagine him thinking his prospects for another ring look brighter elsewhere.
He also may even have grown close to Love and recognise the Favre-Rodgers dynamic and see that the longer he sticks around the more that could stunt Love's career.
Maybe he signs a 4 year extension but seems like there are plenty of scenarios where Rodgers will be out the door pretty quick after this season.
Last edited by British on 10 Jan 2022 22:04, edited 1 time in total.
I just don't see how it is possible to let an MVP QB go.
Why? If they can't pay what he wants...then there's nothing left to do
No team in the history has traded an NFL MVP Qb
They can pay him it is just a question of what pieces we lose in the process. I think they will come to the decision that we will be worse off moving him than moving others. I note the assets we will get in return for Rodgers is part of that consideration.
And maybe Rodgers doesn't want to play for that depleted team.
What's interesting is you say you don't think it's fair to compare Love with Rodgers but you seem to be the one holding Love to a higher bar than Rodgers.
I'm the one saying that Love is likely a year or two away from where Rodgers was when he took over so we're probably going to have to just be patient and wait for Love to develop, be that taking his lumps as our starter or on the bench.
Ultimately it's almost impossible for you to 'evaluate' Love. You've hardly got anything to work from. And anyway, even if you did, he's probably not ready yet. If it took Rodgers 3 years, it'll likely take Love at least as long. So any 'evaluation' that isn't "well, we just don't know yet and it wouldn't be fair to prejudge him" just comes off as silly to me.
Bottom line is, it will all get resolved in a few months. Rodgers will either stay or go and that will set the table for Love to either start or be traded or be kept for another year as the backup.
See, as i was saying, by the peremeters you are debating from...Love can go out and throw 273848383 straight interceptions, but as long as it is within year one, two, or three then I can’t say anything because Rodgers wasn’t ready to start at this point either.
You’ve got me iñ a corner with that. Id rather judge Love as I see him and compare him to almost any other year two qb in history.
Yes, you are in a bit of a corner. Not because anyone put you there, I think it's just the reality of the situation. Your attempt to judge if Love is ready to start for the Packers based on scraps of mop up duty in year 2 is futile. Thankfully the decision will be made for you anyway in a few months.
Well, I mean you just admitted that Love could throw 273848383 straight interceptions and you wouldn’t utter a single word of negative judgement...because he is in year one, two, or three of his career...and Rodgers didn’t start till year 4.
So it’s hard to discuss love and what we’ve seen with you haha
I just don't see how it is possible to let an MVP QB go.
Why? If they can't pay what he wants...then there's nothing left to do
No team in the history has traded an NFL MVP Qb
They can pay him it is just a question of what pieces we lose in the process. I think they will come to the decision that we will be worse off moving him than moving others. I note the assets we will get in return for Rodgers is part of that consideration.
What if the Packers lose in their first playoff game?
The only thing that would make it hard to trade Rodgers is if the Packers win the SB.
Why? If they can't pay what he wants...then there's nothing left to do
No team in the history has traded an NFL MVP Qb
They can pay him it is just a question of what pieces we lose in the process. I think they will come to the decision that we will be worse off moving him than moving others. I note the assets we will get in return for Rodgers is part of that consideration.
What if the Packers lose in their first playoff game?
The only thing that would make it hard to trade Rodgers is if the Packers win the SB.
It would make it easier.
But imagine being the GM that trades NFL MVP 15 year team player and the team under performs for the next decade. It is tough move for Gute. It is much easier for him to just keep Rodgers until he retires or leaves.
Ultimately that is why I think Rodgers stays in 22 and leaves in free agency.
"No NFL team, especially one like the Green Bay football Packers, is ever going to trade or release an MVP, HOF QB. None."
Now, that statement is almost a 100% certainty, a given. Almost. That type of thing just doesn't happen. And even if Rodgers would make $55,000,000 next year, the Packers are going to pay him and play him.
So, why is it that so many seem to be talking about Rodgers being traded? I can understand the fantasy value of that. But in reality, it won't happen.
If Rodgers wants to walk, he will force a trade. That won't be by the choice of the Packers. It'll be Aaron's doing. And he likely has the wherewithal to pull it off if he wants.
The only realistic way that I see Aaron leaving, which I think has only a 7% chance of happening, is if he starts early in the offseason to bring discredit upon Packer leadership. Yes, just as he began to last year. But he would increase it over the weeks. (We know the press would eat that up and play into that hand!) Then, when the Raiders offer three high picks, Guty might reluctantly accept the deal if a key player were also involved.
For the 93% of reality, too many people are talking of Rodgers like he's a high-integrity guy. I don't totally accept that. I think he's a high-self-interest kind of guy when it comes to career goals. I'm not calling that a fault for this discussion. But I do think he'll consent that the Packers for at least one more year are his best chance at a ring.
Come on down and try some of our delicious green chili! Best in the world!
Aaron Rodgers will be the oldest player to win MVP.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
But imagine being the GM that trades NFL MVP 15 year team player and the team under performs for the next decade. It is tough move for Gute. It is much easier for him to just keep Rodgers until he retires or leaves.
Ultimately that is why I think Rodgers stays in 22 and leaves in free agency.
AR staying on the current deal and walking/retiring in 2023 is literally the most unlikely scenario imaginable. Trading him to the Bears for a used Dom Capers is more likely than that.
It would be monumentally stupid, the worst of all possible worlds. Not only would we have a sucky roster around AR in 2022, but we'd lose young long term talent due to being unable to extend them, then we'd lose AR in 2023 for lousy comp pick, AND have to roll with Love with no picks from a trade to have an advantage in the long term. If Gutey did that, I'd start a Fire Gutey site myself.
Bud, I really don't get what part of a 46M cap hit being utterly roster-destroying is difficult for you to understand.
Do you think we can just restructure it? Well, not so much, because it's the final year of his deal. We maybe could free like 12M of cap by restructuring, but that's it. Still leaves a 34M cap hit.
There are only two real options:
1) Extend AR (if he's willing) and try to open another SB window after a likely rough 2022.
2) Trade AR get a monster pick haul, use those assets to start over with Love (or if he fails, the next option)
But imagine being the GM that trades NFL MVP 15 year team player and the team under performs for the next decade. It is tough move for Gute. It is much easier for him to just keep Rodgers until he retires or leaves.
Ultimately that is why I think Rodgers stays in 22 and leaves in free agency.
AR staying on the current deal and walking/retiring in 2023 is literally the most unlikely scenario imaginable. Trading him to the Bears for a used Dom Capers is more likely than that.
It would be monumentally stupid, the worst of all possible worlds. Not only would we have a sucky roster around AR in 2022, but we'd lose young long term talent due to being unable to extend them, then we'd lose AR in 2023 for lousy comp pick, AND have to roll with Love with no picks from a trade to have an advantage in the long term. If Gutey did that, I'd start a Fire Gutey site myself.
Bud, I really don't get what part of a 46M cap hit being utterly roster-destroying is difficult for you to understand.
Do you think we can just restructure it? Well, not so much, because it's the final year of his deal. We maybe could free like 12M of cap by restructuring, but that's it. Still leaves a 34M cap hit.
There are only two real options:
1) Extend AR (if he's willing) and try to open another SB window after a likely rough 2022.
2) Trade AR get a monster pick haul, use those assets to start over with Love (or if he fails, the next option)
+1.
And if the option is 1) then the Packers DO NOT make the playoffs in 2022 due to a depleted roster. No Adams or Tonyan or Nijman on O. No Z or Campbell or Douglas on D. Probably lose Preston and a few more too. They will be lucky to be 3rd in the NFC North. Rodgers may be a great QB, but he cannot catch the pass he threw. And he cannot play linebacker. How is the O, without Adams or Tonyan going to put up 38 points every game. Do you really want Turner at LT again if Bakh misses a game?
Face it guys, Rodgers is not Brady. He is NOT going to give the Packers a team friendly deal. You can pay him now and decimate the team, you can pay him later and decimate the team later (lose Jenkins, Jaire and Amos 14 months from now) or you can trade him and keep everyone except Adams AND get an extra 2 first round draft picks and maybe more.
But imagine being the GM that trades NFL MVP 15 year team player and the team under performs for the next decade. It is tough move for Gute. It is much easier for him to just keep Rodgers until he retires or leaves.
Ultimately that is why I think Rodgers stays in 22 and leaves in free agency.
AR staying on the current deal and walking/retiring in 2023 is literally the most unlikely scenario imaginable. Trading him to the Bears for a used Dom Capers is more likely than that.
It would be monumentally stupid, the worst of all possible worlds. Not only would we have a sucky roster around AR in 2022, but we'd lose young long term talent due to being unable to extend them, then we'd lose AR in 2023 for lousy comp pick, AND have to roll with Love with no picks from a trade to have an advantage in the long term. If Gutey did that, I'd start a Fire Gutey site myself.
Bud, I really don't get what part of a 46M cap hit being utterly roster-destroying is difficult for you to understand.
Do you think we can just restructure it? Well, not so much, because it's the final year of his deal. We maybe could free like 12M of cap by restructuring, but that's it. Still leaves a 34M cap hit.
There are only two real options:
1) Extend AR (if he's willing) and try to open another SB window after a likely rough 2022.
2) Trade AR get a monster pick haul, use those assets to start over with Love (or if he fails, the next option)
+1.
And if the option is 1) then the Packers DO NOT make the playoffs in 2022 due to a depleted roster. No Adams or Tonyan or Nijman on O. No Z or Campbell or Douglas on D. Probably lose Preston and a few more too. They will be lucky to be 3rd in the NFC North. Rodgers may be a great QB, but he cannot catch the pass he threw. And he cannot play linebacker. How is the O, without Adams or Tonyan going to put up 38 points every game. Do you really want Turner at LT again if Bakh misses a game?
Face it guys, Rodgers is not Brady. He is NOT going to give the Packers a team friendly deal. You can pay him now and decimate the team, you can pay him later and decimate the team later (lose Jenkins, Jaire and Amos 14 months from now) or you can trade him and keep everyone except Adams AND get an extra 2 first round draft picks and maybe more.
I disagree a bit. If we extend AR, we should be able to put enough pieces in place to win NFC North in 2022. When I say "rough year", I mean rough compared with this all-in one. More of a "fight for playoffs and then see what happens" -quality team, not a "SB win expected" -team.
We don't need anywhere NEAR this year's roster to win the division. Partly because all the other teams in our division are in a state of firing people. Partly because this year our roster has been AMAZINGLY good and deep. So deep we clinched early despite long injuries to so many key players.
In 2022, if we extend AR, we won't be near as deep, and will need good injury luck. We'll likely lose Adams and some others. But since we have a solid young core, we just need Gutey to pull of some Campbell & Rasul magic to again have at least an outside chance.
It's likely AR could have a more of a all-in win-in-2022 -quality roster available if he forced a trade to such a location. But fact is, the only reason we're lamenting potentially losing a lot of guys is because Gutey (and TT) have just hit on too many too high quality guys to keep 'em all. If AR views that as a negative, hit him with a salmon. But with helmet on.
