Packers Huddle

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 07:43

OTAs, but what about camp? Again, I haven't seen a lot of mention of him in the media in camp. I have read more about Malik Taylor, albeit early, than Winfree. Not being a dick here, but I haven't see a lot of mention of Winfree, let alone much mention of looking good enough in camp to be a roster lock. A few, but just not what I feel you are referring too as Doubs level hype.
https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=Win ... yped_query

Based on your own link to a twitter search, it appears that he gets at least a daily mention for a notably good catch and usually in the tweets they say things like "continues to impress" or "again" because it happens almost every day. Schniedman at The Athletic has written it up. Bretl at Dairyland has written it up.

I'm just not sure what level of hype you're looking for. The dude plays with the 1s regularly at a position which is wide open for playing time. He makes contested catches and downfield plays. It's been a steady drumbeat, consistently and constantly.

We're talking about him, primarily, in comparison to guys like Toure and Rodgers and whatnot. And Winfree FOR SURE gets more hype, good press, and twitter notes than Amari and Toure--not even a comparison. What more do you want than "plays with the starters, does something good every day"?

Meanwhile, you claim you've heard more about Malik Taylor, yet he didn't even practice until 4 days ago. Do a Twitter query on that guy. There is nothing but noting that he returned to practice with a "no contact" jersey. So I'm really not sure what you're referring to for him.

NCF wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 08:17

Beyond that, a number of considerations come into play. Toure, a rookie on a 4-year contract is a more valuable long-term commodity than a journeyman in Winfree who is either coming up on ERFA or RFA deals. I am not writing Winfree off, I just think there are plenty of avenues where he is the odd man out and probably more avenues where he is than where he isn't.

Winfree is a "journeyman" now?

He's a 3rd year player who was a 6th round draft pick by the Broncos and has only played with us since he got cut after his rookie training camp. He's also only 17 months older than Toure. And you can cut Toure at almost no risk of losing him for the PS. I really struggle to imagine the Packers keeping Toure ahead of Winfree because he might be more valuable in 2024. We're looking for WRs who can play right now.

And yes, he is maximizing those opportunities. That is literally what people are saying about him.

I think Toure has a bright future with us. I think Winfree has a bright present and future with us.

Also, this is not the first time Rodgers has mentioned him specifically. On July 28, he said: "I wouldn’t be surprised if 88’s over there going, ‘Hey, I’m a pretty damn good football player. Don’t forget about me.’ Because when he shows up and he’s healthy, he makes a lot of plays, he has the last couple of camps and dealt with an injury last year in camp. I think he definitely is going to put himself in a position to have an impact.”


The whole first week or so of camp, Winfree was making everyone's lists of standouts or surprise players. He was specifically noted for his "playmaking." It has also been noted by more than one source, including Winfree, that Rodgers is expressing his trust in him; and that he's giving him contested catch opportunities in camp and is proving himself.


At this point, I've definitely over-argued this case. I basically just think it's a given, based on the coverage I've read, that Winfree is competing for a starting spot, is playing a lot of "X" receiver, has Rodgers' trust, and is likely to make the roster. I'm continuing this primarily because I'm genuinely surprised others haven't read the coverage the same way. The only arguments against it are contractual or people not adjusting their prior expectations based on the reality of camp.

Like I said early on in the chat: if it's between Winfree and Toure for the 7th slot, it's 85/15 Winfree. Toure isn't sniffing the same kind of playing time and playmaking opportunities.

Obviously, a lot can happen between now and cutdown day--especially for a guy whose whole brief career has been "flashes and then injury." But as things stand, he's in the top 3-4 performers at the position on this team. And to me, it doesn't make much sense to be talking about cutting your 3rd or 4th best-performing wideout.

To put odds on the initial poll question asked, who will be under contract with the Packers as of Week One:

- Christian Watson: 100%
- Romeo Doubs: 100%
- Allen Lazard: 99%
- Randall Cobb: 95%
- Sammy Watkins: 95%
- Amari Rodgers: 90%
- Juwann Winfree: 85%
- Samori Toure: 20%
- Malik Taylor: 5%
- Anyone else: negligible

So here's my argument:

• 85% may be 6th lowest (roster stacking), but it's really high (near-lock) and the reasons it is below other guys are the contractual/draft status reasons others have stated.

• He is performing as the 3rd or 4th best player at his position, behind only Lazard and Doubs and right there with Watkins. Ahead of Rodgers and Toure by a mile.

That's it.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 08:55

So here's my argument:
85% may be 6th lowest (roster stacking), but it's really high (near-lock) and the reasons it is below other guys are the contractual/draft status reasons others have stated.
He is performing as the 3rd or 4th best player at his position, behind only Lazard and Doubs and right there with Watkins. Ahead of Rodgers and Toure by a mile.

You know as well as anyone that when we are talking about the 6th/7th guy in a group that contract/draft status play a big part. Fair or not, it's true.

You also never really addressed my point about practice squad flexibility. With the ability to call up a player up to 3 times, there may be spots where you really want a guy like Winfree and it may actually be easier to achieve with a practice squad call-up than a bottom spot on the roster where there is always going to be the inactive list juggling to overcome. Maybe I am overthinking this a bit, but just for argument sake, our entire team stays healthy all year and we want to keep Toure and Winfree. The ability to actually play Winfree would be easier to achieve with a practice squad call up and having Toure inactive on the 53 than having Winfree on the 53, activating him, and then having to sit someone else. That assumes that as the 6th or 7th guy, he might only be in line for a small handful of meaningful appearances, but that is more along the lines of my expectations than a week-to-week contributor.

NCF wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 09:05

Maybe I am overthinking this a bit, but just for argument sake, our entire team stays healthy all year and we want to keep Toure and Winfree. The ability to actually play Winfree would be easier to achieve with a practice squad call up and having Toure inactive on the 53 than having Winfree on the 53, activating him, and then having to sit someone else. That assumes that as the 6th or 7th guy, he might only be in line for a small handful of meaningful appearances, but that is more along the lines of my expectations than a week-to-week contributor.

I genuinely don't understand this, which is why I didn't address it.

The guys who play more often should be on the active roster. The guys you are developing and who will be inactive more often should be on the PS and be called up from time to time. It does not make any sense to me to cut the guy who you envision playing more in order to use your PS call-ups on him, and keep a guy to protect him when he's a 7th round pick.

You just put the 7th round pick on the PS and keep the guy who is your 3rd or 4th best WR right now. Am I missing something?

NCF wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 09:05

You know as well as anyone that when we are talking about the 6th/7th guy in a group that contract/draft status play a big part. Fair or not, it's true.

And yes, I do know that. That's why he's at 85% despite being better than the guys at 90%

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 08:23

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 07:43

OTAs, but what about camp? Again, I haven't seen a lot of mention of him in the media in camp. I have read more about Malik Taylor, albeit early, than Winfree. Not being a dick here, but I haven't see a lot of mention of Winfree, let alone much mention of looking good enough in camp to be a roster lock. A few, but just not what I feel you are referring too as Doubs level hype.
https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=Win ... yped_query

Based on your own link to a twitter search, it appears that he gets at least a daily mention for a notably good catch and usually in the tweets they say things like "continues to impress" or "again" because it happens almost every day. Schniedman at The Athletic has written it up. Bretl at Dairyland has written it up.

I'm just not sure what level of hype you're looking for. The dude plays with the 1s regularly at a position which is wide open for playing time. He makes contested catches and downfield plays. It's been a steady drumbeat, consistently and constantly.

We're talking about him, primarily, in comparison to guys like Toure and Rodgers and whatnot. And Winfree FOR SURE gets more hype, good press, and twitter notes than Amari and Toure--not even a comparison. What more do you want than "plays with the starters, does something good every day"?

Meanwhile, you claim you've heard more about Malik Taylor, yet he didn't even practice until 4 days ago. Do a Twitter query on that guy. There is nothing but noting that he returned to practice with a "no contact" jersey. So I'm really not sure what you're referring to for him.

I apologize, it obviously wasn't Taylor, so not sure who I was the reading about.

As for Winfree he gets a mention here and mention there. It isn't every day, but most, and it isn't certainly isn't Doubs level hype as you claimed. I see a kind of ho hum mentions, enough to know he is there, not enough to get me hyped like Doubs.

Look, it's cool. If there's a debate about the quality of a Packers receiver, and I agree with Aaron Rodgers and y'all don't, I'm comfortable taking that

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 09:18

Look, it's cool. If there's a debate about the quality of a Packers receiver, and I agree with Aaron Rodgers and y'all don't, I'm comfortable taking that

Whitewater Jesus...

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 09:23

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 09:18

Look, it's cool. If there's a debate about the quality of a Packers receiver, and I agree with Aaron Rodgers and y'all don't, I'm comfortable taking that

Whitewater Jesus...

And you think Gutey will make THAT mistake again?

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 09:25

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 09:23

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 09:18

Look, it's cool. If there's a debate about the quality of a Packers receiver, and I agree with Aaron Rodgers and y'all don't, I'm comfortable taking that

Whitewater Jesus...

And you think Gutey will make THAT mistake again?

I think they would talk to Aaron before cutting Winfree. And we are talking about first 3 weeks of camp mention, not days prior to final cuts.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 09:12

NCF wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 09:05

Maybe I am overthinking this a bit, but just for argument sake, our entire team stays healthy all year and we want to keep Toure and Winfree. The ability to actually play Winfree would be easier to achieve with a practice squad call up and having Toure inactive on the 53 than having Winfree on the 53, activating him, and then having to sit someone else. That assumes that as the 6th or 7th guy, he might only be in line for a small handful of meaningful appearances, but that is more along the lines of my expectations than a week-to-week contributor.

I genuinely don't understand this, which is why I didn't address it.

The guys who play more often should be on the active roster. The guys you are developing and who will be inactive more often should be on the PS and be called up from time to time. It does not make any sense to me to cut the guy who you envision playing more in order to use your PS call-ups on him, and keep a guy to protect him when he's a 7th round pick.

You just put the 7th round pick on the PS and keep the guy who is your 3rd or 4th best WR right now. Am I missing something?

NCF wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 09:05

You know as well as anyone that when we are talking about the 6th/7th guy in a group that contract/draft status play a big part. Fair or not, it's true.

And yes, I do know that. That's why he's at 85% despite being better than the guys at 90%

Yeah I agree on the draft status. We are a mature enough team and had enough volume of 6th/7th round selections that being drafted this year should provide no assurance of a roster spot. Absolutely none.

The only way Toure fights his way on the team is if he balls out in the preseason games to get noticed. Which can happen. But it's also important to determine if Jordan Love simply has a better "chemistry" with someone as decisions shouldn't be made based on that.

My biggest hope is our Oline actually holds up to allow Love and the WRs to show a little bit of what they can do. Defenses play ultra vanilla in the Preseason but we can still hope to see WRs play and compete 1 one 1 vs opposing corners. I also hope our WR's aren't WIDE OPEN due to being designed opened. I hope we play more play calls designed to make Love and the WRs work for it. I imagine we need to do a little of both. Get some QB friendly plays while also forcing them to show what they can do.

I agree that Winfree makes the 53. I also think that Toure makes the 53. I think that it is Amari Rodgers that gets cut.

Why: Anything Rodgers can do as a slot receiver, Cobb and Jones can do better. Experience and rapport with the QB matters. And maybe Doubs and Lazard can also play the slot.
Anything Rodgers can do as a gadget guy Watson, Jones, Hill and Goodson can do better. They are all faster, some much faster.

Note that I put Jones as both a potential slot receiver and gadget guy. If Dillon is in the backfield, Jones is free for both roles.

So then it comes down to Rodgers vs Toure. I expect we will know much more in 2 days but IMO Rodgers showed nothing last year. He does not have the judgement to return punts - you can't let a punt hit at the 12 and roll to the 2 but he did last season. He is too slow to be the kickoff returner and he is too small and not a good enough tackler to be on the kickoff team. He is both too small and too slow to be a gunner. At least Toure has the size and speed combination to play ST which hopefully is all the 7th WR is expected to do.

We also have the possibility that the Packers only keep 6 WR's. If Watson is healthy for the 2nd preseason game and plays well, why do the Packers need 7? If Hill is healthy it is likely to come down to keeping Goodson or the 7th WR and I could definitely see Goodson as the kickoff returner or punt returner.

Oh and regarding cutting a 3rd round pick, they cut Sternberger, right?

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 12:26

<respectful snip>

Why cut a 3rd rounder who's looked improved in camp and is about to go into his 2nd season? That's not how the Packers operate.

Sternberger got 2 seasons, was injured a lot, and was cut after a 2 game suspension to start year 3.

Did you ever consider maybe Toure is merely the next Chastin West, Diondre Borel, or Charles Johnson?

Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 12:37

Did you ever consider maybe Toure is merely the next Chastin West, Diondre Borel, or Charles Johnson?

Sure. He sure could be. I just think a guy going into Year 4 is less likely to take that big jump than a guy going into Year 1 or 2.

Last year it was evident on Family Night that the game was too big for Amari Rodgers. I commented that night that he looked intimated, slow, stars in his eyes, etc.

He carried that for every preseason game. He especially looked slow and indecisiive. Some put it off as "that's how his route running should be"

I think this year it's safe to say we will tell pretty quick if he belongs or not. If he looks like the same #8 as he did last year...yes. I move on from him.

But if he looks decisive and considerably quicker, then you hold onto him.

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 12:26

I agree that Winfree makes the 53. I also think that Toure makes the 53. I think that it is Amari Rodgers that gets cut.

Why: Anything Rodgers can do as a slot receiver, Cobb and Jones can do better. Experience and rapport with the QB matters. And maybe Doubs and Lazard can also play the slot.
Anything Rodgers can do as a gadget guy Watson, Jones, Hill and Goodson can do better. They are all faster, some much faster.

Amari Rodgers isn't going anywhere, he looks like a different player completely from last year, just because Jones can play the slot doesn't make Rodgers expendable, we need his return ability's as well.

don't know why people make predictions now, we havn't even played a PS game yet, ya'll are just guessing, we'll keep this guy or that one, we'll keep Rodgers or Toure, hell the coaches probably havn't decided that yet, little early to predict this stuff for me.

go pak go wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 14:31

Last year it was evident on Family Night that the game was too big for Amari Rodgers. I commented that night that he looked intimated, slow, stars in his eyes, etc.

He carried that for every preseason game. He especially looked slow and indecisiive. Some put it off as "that's how his route running should be"

I think this year it's safe to say we will tell pretty quick if he belongs or not. If he looks like the same #8 as he did last year...yes. I move on from him.

But if he looks decisive and considerably quicker, then you hold onto him.

He doesn't in any way look like last years Amari Rodgers to me, he looks not only quicker, but faster too, he's a lock, I'd bet anyone on that.

and all this arguing about Winfree and Touri, Lazard has never run a route that compares to Winfree, not ever, it's why I asked the Question, how long do people think Lazard will be the #1? imho, without even seeing more, it will be a sin for Winfree not to start or be our #3 behind Watkins and Doubs on the edge, he is so much more polished then Lazard, I agree with Yoho about Winfree, it was so obvious last year before he was hurt, he's so much quicker in and out of his breaks, Winfree is a player on the rise.

this is going to be another situation where one year the position basically sucks outside of a player like Adams, to having a abundance of quality players the next, same with DL in a way, last year it was Clark and Lowery, this year 5 will be fighting for reps, I love it.

Yoop wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 15:35

don't know why people make predictions now, we havn't even played a PS game yet, ya'll are just guessing, we'll keep this guy or that one, we'll keep Winfree or Toure, hell the coaches probably havn't decided that yet, little early to predict this stuff for me.

Because making predictions is fun! We’re on a football forum. Of course we know nothing; we’re all just speculating. Go big, be wrong, have fun. There’s no penalty!

Yoop wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 15:49

go pak go wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 14:31

Last year it was evident on Family Night that the game was too big for Amari Rodgers. I commented that night that he looked intimated, slow, stars in his eyes, etc.

He carried that for every preseason game. He especially looked slow and indecisiive. Some put it off as "that's how his route running should be"

I think this year it's safe to say we will tell pretty quick if he belongs or not. If he looks like the same #8 as he did last year...yes. I move on from him.

But if he looks decisive and considerably quicker, then you hold onto him.

He doesn't in any way look like last years Amari Rodgers to me, he looks not only quicker, but faster too, he's a lock, I'd bet anyone on that.

I hope you're right. I didn't watch Family Night but it sounds like you did.

So he looked significantly better at Family Night?

go pak go wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 16:19

Yoop wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 15:49

go pak go wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022 14:31

Last year it was evident on Family Night that the game was too big for Amari Rodgers. I commented that night that he looked intimated, slow, stars in his eyes, etc.

He carried that for every preseason game. He especially looked slow and indecisiive. Some put it off as "that's how his route running should be"

I think this year it's safe to say we will tell pretty quick if he belongs or not. If he looks like the same #8 as he did last year...yes. I move on from him.

But if he looks decisive and considerably quicker, then you hold onto him.

He doesn't in any way look like last years Amari Rodgers to me, he looks not only quicker, but faster too, he's a lock, I'd bet anyone on that.

I hope you're right. I didn't watch Family Night but it sounds like you did.

So he looked significantly better at Family Night?

had a nice TD catch, not sure if he had any others, but he's looked a lot better in practice, my nephew has been to a few practices and according to him he looks like a different player,.