Packers Huddle

Yoop wrote: ↑

16 Jan 2023 07:43

It's called disassociation when you divert the focus of the topic or complaint back on the complainer, it's what people do to defend the reason for the complaint, Guty's 2020 draft didn't help this team at all, even if Love pans out, it'll be 4 years before we even get a inkling of proof, 4 years more of near zero help for this offense.

Lupes draft was easily more productive in that time frame, again Guty's had 2 drafts that hardly helped this team at all.

Fully agree on Gute's 2020 being terrible. And fully agree his poor performance of Day 2 and Day 3 in 2018, 2019 and 2020 really held this team back during our window.

No question about that. His sh*tty drafting was subsidized by his amazing luck in Free Agency those years. I don't think there is any defending Brian Gutekunst at this point. More of a wait and see. If his Love pick sucks, his 2021 draft ends up not turning well (Stokes and Meyers decline)...he could be in the hot seat pretty quick. And he should be.

wallyuwl wrote: ↑

15 Jan 2023 20:09

Scott4Pack wrote: ↑

15 Jan 2023 20:03

Here’s my take, if that’s okay.

Round 1: Jordan Love (B)
The fact that Love hasn’t played much is more of a testimony to the health of the guy in front of him than it is about his own playing ability. Yeah, you want to see first round picks play more and play plenty and even have significant impact. But we could’ve said the same about a guy named Rodgers a few years ago too. Give this pick a C if your team truly had an urgent need for an impact player at the time of the selection. This Packer team didn’t. So, it’s a B.

Round 2: AJ Dillon (B)
Dillon had what I’d say is a down year, for him. But he’s showing that he can being plenty of power to the offense if featured correctly. He is a very solid RB who can change games once the weather turns cold. What more can you ask from a skill guy?

Round 3: Josiah Degaura (B)
He does what he’s supposed to do. Not many splash plays. But that’s what the coaches want. He’s a guy who is supposed to block, help reveal how defenses are playing, and occasionally catch a ball. Play ST plenty too. That’s a very serviceable TE. Maybe many teams would want more immediate impact from a round 3 selection. But this guy does his job more than well enough. He’s also a step up, IMHO, than the guy he replaced (Richard Rodgers).

Round 4: Traded for Love (B)
See above. And remember that this is a starting QB in the near future. There is a lot of value in that.

Round 5: Kamal Martin (F)
Totally agree about this being a failed pick.

Round 6a: Jon Runyan (A)
Starting caliber OLinemen don’t grow on trees. Just because GB is adept at finding these guys shouldn’t be a knock on Runyon. He’s actually good. And that is hardly a given for anybody picked in round 6.

Round 6b: Jake Hanson (D)
It seems like the game hasn’t slowed down for Hansen. So I’ll give him a worse grade than you did. He still has a chance in the NFL. But he needs to show something to a team very soon.

Round 7a: Vernon Scott (C)
I have a hard time giving an F for any 7th round selection. Almost all of those guys are developmental prospects. If you get anything on game day from them, then you’ve done a good job. Scott had few opportunities. Much of his time was on ST. Nothing stood out. So give him a D if you must. But this isn’t a wasted pick.

Round 7b: Jonathon Garvin (B)
This guy has come in to play in spots. And he has had a few splash plays too. That’s good for a developmental guy.

I want some of what you are smoking.

It’s all about expectations. Mine are different than many people’s.
Example: Some people insist that any and all first round picks must have immediate and big impact on the team. I don’t see that as realistic. Yeah, you hope it happens. But too many first round picks are “above average” players or even less than that over time. Even those that hit only live up to those expectations for a lesser time than we hope. I see Clay Matthews that way. He was awesome early, but only for a few years. His career wasn’t nearly long enough for his hopes and ours. But truth is, he was far better than most first round picks.
For a guy like Jordan Love, we have to decide if the grade is more about his own performance or the team’s, or a combination of both. I still think the player AND the team have met expectations for him under the circumstances. I think they only way you give that a bad grade is to say that the Pack should not have picked a QB because it wasn’t a position of need. I don’t hold that view, obviously.
And so on…
:-)

The 2020 draft should also be viewed through the lens of Covid restrictions as well. Not making excuses, but evaluations were based mainly on film and Zoom interviews. No off-season team activities, and limited participation training camps. To be fair all teams had the same challenge, but it doesn't mean player development should not be scrutinized differently.

Scott4Pack wrote: ↑

16 Jan 2023 08:53

wallyuwl wrote: ↑

15 Jan 2023 20:09

Scott4Pack wrote: ↑

15 Jan 2023 20:03

Here’s my take, if that’s okay.

Round 1: Jordan Love (B)
The fact that Love hasn’t played much is more of a testimony to the health of the guy in front of him than it is about his own playing ability. Yeah, you want to see first round picks play more and play plenty and even have significant impact. But we could’ve said the same about a guy named Rodgers a few years ago too. Give this pick a C if your team truly had an urgent need for an impact player at the time of the selection. This Packer team didn’t. So, it’s a B.

Round 2: AJ Dillon (B)
Dillon had what I’d say is a down year, for him. But he’s showing that he can being plenty of power to the offense if featured correctly. He is a very solid RB who can change games once the weather turns cold. What more can you ask from a skill guy?

Round 3: Josiah Degaura (B)
He does what he’s supposed to do. Not many splash plays. But that’s what the coaches want. He’s a guy who is supposed to block, help reveal how defenses are playing, and occasionally catch a ball. Play ST plenty too. That’s a very serviceable TE. Maybe many teams would want more immediate impact from a round 3 selection. But this guy does his job more than well enough. He’s also a step up, IMHO, than the guy he replaced (Richard Rodgers).

Round 4: Traded for Love (B)
See above. And remember that this is a starting QB in the near future. There is a lot of value in that.

Round 5: Kamal Martin (F)
Totally agree about this being a failed pick.

Round 6a: Jon Runyan (A)
Starting caliber OLinemen don’t grow on trees. Just because GB is adept at finding these guys shouldn’t be a knock on Runyon. He’s actually good. And that is hardly a given for anybody picked in round 6.

Round 6b: Jake Hanson (D)
It seems like the game hasn’t slowed down for Hansen. So I’ll give him a worse grade than you did. He still has a chance in the NFL. But he needs to show something to a team very soon.

Round 7a: Vernon Scott (C)
I have a hard time giving an F for any 7th round selection. Almost all of those guys are developmental prospects. If you get anything on game day from them, then you’ve done a good job. Scott had few opportunities. Much of his time was on ST. Nothing stood out. So give him a D if you must. But this isn’t a wasted pick.

Round 7b: Jonathon Garvin (B)
This guy has come in to play in spots. And he has had a few splash plays too. That’s good for a developmental guy.

I want some of what you are smoking.

It’s all about expectations. Mine are different than many people’s.
Example: Some people insist that any and all first round picks must have immediate and big impact on the team. I don’t see that as realistic. Yeah, you hope it happens. But too many first round picks are “above average” players or even less than that over time. Even those that hit only live up to those expectations for a lesser time than we hope. I see Clay Matthews that way. He was awesome early, but only for a few years. His career wasn’t nearly long enough for his hopes and ours. But truth is, he was far better than most first round picks.
For a guy like Jordan Love, we have to decide if the grade is more about his own performance or the team’s, or a combination of both. I still think the player AND the team have met expectations for him under the circumstances. I think they only way you give that a bad grade is to say that the Pack should not have picked a QB because it wasn’t a position of need. I don’t hold that view, obviously.
And so on…
:-)

Scott in this age of UFA the ability to keep high draft picks is more limited, the more time that pick doesn't produce, sim ply equates to less production from his rookie contract, and if he explodes and does well his last season on it the harder it becomes to resign him, we may experience that with Gary, we opted to pay Love 20 mil. for his 5th year option, if he does play, and plays well we'll all be happy, but that 20 mil. will just be a drop in the bucket to what he'll want next, and we'll be back to pay a large portion of our cap on a QB, again. so the goal of getting a QB on a cheap contract alludes us again.

all I've heard in this forum where the complaints about how Rodgers contract has limited this team building, no one ever complains what it will cost us to keep Love, I actually think it's good to groom young QB's, but three or four years translates to a year or two to long, there was absolutely no reason to jump up and take Love, unless ya want to accept that reason Guty tried to sell us, we needed offensive help, the 3 very raw receivers he took in 2018 where inconsistent at best, we also needed help on defense at ILB, or TE, The Love pick set us back, it didn't move us forward.

and we really still don't know if Love has the ability to win.

I actually think it is better to lock a player up like Love when he hasn't exploded onto the scene due to great talent around him on a cheap rookie deal which results in an overpay.

The best scenario for us is like the Rodgers deal in 2009. Give him a rather long term deal but at a modest price because he hasn't exploded yet. That way you have a young and ascending QB on a moderate but realistic contract for a long time.

Round 1: Jordan Love (Incomplete)
No other grade will do. This is still a lottery ticket. I truly believe this pick is an A or an F in the long run and nothing in between. Anyone that says they know the answer to that question right now is lying.

Round 2: AJ Dillon (C-)
Decent player, but terrible value especially considering what happened at the top of this draft. 2nd-round RB's are the class of the NFL and Dillon certainly has not even sniffed that territory.

Round 3: Josiah Deguara (D-)
Ah, the 3rd-round curse. I actually think Deguara has been an OK player, but this is once again bad process. A swiss army knife of a player that LaFleur basically hand picked rounds before he should have been picked and then has failed to use him as such. The injury didn't help which is why I have an ounce of forgiveness for this pick. This is more a case of the Packers failing as an organization to be on the same page in regards to this pick than it is an indictment on Deguara.

Round 4: Traded for Love (Incomplete)
See above. If Love becomes an All-Pro no one is ever going to give a &%$@ about a 4th (this was essentially a 5th) round pick. If they liked Love as much as they said they did, then I have no problem with how this played out.

Round 5: Kamal Martin (C)
Swing and a miss. At least it was a decent cut, though. Martin showed high end ability but in the end was too much of a free lancer to be relied on and it only got worse with time. In Round 5, I would rather miss this way than a pick we will get to in a bit here.

Round 6a: Jon Runyan (B+)
I was underwhelmed by the pick despite the pedigree. Runyan has been a very good player though and in Round 6 has provided incredible ROI.

Round 6b: Jake Hanson (D)
See Kamal Martin. Hated this pick. Little to no upside when the pick was made. Very unlike a Packers late round pick. Has proved to be exactly who we thought he was.

Round 6C: Simon Stepaniak (D)
Maybe Gute hedged his bet. I loved the pick here. Stepaniak was a high upside player if he could ever get right from a devastating injury suffered in college. Process wise, I love the flyer on this kind of prospect at this juncture especially considering Runyan and Hanson had already been selected.

Round 7a: Vernon Scott (D)
Battled injuries and inconsistency. Despite many chances, never really materialized but you could see the talent.

Round 7b: Jonathon Garvin (D)
Hard to argue with what they have got from this pick. Similar to Scott, despite a host of opportunities and a few flashes, WAY too inconsistent. Has been downright bad in extended stretches of action. But, end of Round 7, not sure you can expect much better.

Overall, this is a bad draft from the Packers, but there is still one player who can change the fortunes of this class in the most impactful way. Keep the faith.

APB wrote: ↑

15 Jan 2023 20:47

The 2020 draft wasn’t great by any means, that’s for sure. But neither was yours. You’d be calling for your own head if you were GM.

I put a little more accountability on the actual GM than I do an internet poster. You think because someone whiffed on their internet mock then that makes it where they can’t grade the “alleged” professional?

APB wrote: ↑

15 Jan 2023 20:47

The 2020 draft wasn’t great by any means, that’s for sure. But neither was yours. You’d be calling for your own head if you were GM.

Dbag style post. Props mod.

The consensus seems to be if you can get 3 or 4 meaningful players out of a draft that is considered a success. Plus we are drafting lower down in each draft so that has to be taken into account. We got Dillon and Runyan contributing regularly. If Love turns out to be a solid starter this draft will be considered a good one. IMO the jury is still out...

go pak go wrote: ↑

16 Jan 2023 10:10

I actually think it is better to lock a player up like Love when he hasn't exploded onto the scene due to great talent around him on a cheap rookie deal which results in an overpay.

The best scenario for us is like the Rodgers deal in 2009. Give him a rather long term deal but at a modest price because he hasn't exploded yet. That way you have a young and ascending QB on a moderate but realistic contract for a long time.

agree, my fingers are crossed that Love deserves what we give him, thing is both Rodgers then and Love now still have something to prove, so thats in our favor, maybe Rodgers felt so under paid though it's why he wanted revenge money later

Drj820 wrote: ↑

16 Jan 2023 12:02

APB wrote: ↑

15 Jan 2023 20:47

The 2020 draft wasn’t great by any means, that’s for sure. But neither was yours. You’d be calling for your own head if you were GM.

I put a little more accountability on the actual GM than I do an internet poster. You think because someone whiffed on their internet mock then that makes it where they can’t grade the “alleged” professional?

Never said that, Cap’n. My post was simply to point out the absurdity of the poster’s repeated claims of being a better evaluator of talent than the sitting GM.

Drj820 wrote: Dbag style post. Props mod.

So you do recognize it. Huh.

APB wrote: ↑

16 Jan 2023 20:45

Drj820 wrote: ↑

16 Jan 2023 12:02

APB wrote: ↑

15 Jan 2023 20:47

The 2020 draft wasn’t great by any means, that’s for sure. But neither was yours. You’d be calling for your own head if you were GM.

I put a little more accountability on the actual GM than I do an internet poster. You think because someone whiffed on their internet mock then that makes it where they can’t grade the “alleged” professional?

Never said that, Cap’n. My post was simply to point out the absurdity of the poster’s repeated claims of being a better evaluator of talent than the sitting GM.

Drj820 wrote: Dbag style post. Props mod.

So you do recognize it. Huh.

His draft is better though. So, fail.

My draft is better. During this time is in the middle of the worst deployment of my life and this was done a month prior to the actual draft. A lot probably would have changed in rankings and scouting.

Gutenbumst is paid to do this and he got a F.

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

17 Jan 2023 07:21

My draft is better. During this time is in the middle of the worst deployment of my life and this was done a month prior to the actual draft. A lot probably would have changed in rankings and scouting.

Gutenbumst is paid to do this and he got a F.

Your draft would have never happened. Your best picks were off the board by the time you "chose" them. Not the case with your 3rd rd pick, though. He went undrafted entirely. Coulda saved that pick for an actual impact player.

Gotta say, I kinda like this hindsight evaluation stuff. Makes me look like I know what the hell I'm doing when, in actuality, I'm as clueless as the next fan when it comes to recognizing talent outside of the obvious.

#apb4gm

APB wrote: ↑

17 Jan 2023 07:45

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

17 Jan 2023 07:21

My draft is better. During this time is in the middle of the worst deployment of my life and this was done a month prior to the actual draft. A lot probably would have changed in rankings and scouting.

Gutenbumst is paid to do this and he got a F.

Your draft would have never happened. Your best picks were off the board by the time you "chose" them. Not the case with your 3rd rd pick, though. He went undrafted entirely. Coulda saved that pick for an actual impact player.

Gotta say, I kinda like this hindsight evaluation stuff. Makes me look like I know what the hell I'm doing when, in actuality, I'm as clueless as the next fan when it comes to recognizing talent outside of the obvious.

#apb4gm

I like to too.

My top 3 that year was Kenneth Murray, Justin Jefferson and Patrick Queen in that order.

APB wrote: ↑

17 Jan 2023 07:45

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

17 Jan 2023 07:21

My draft is better. During this time is in the middle of the worst deployment of my life and this was done a month prior to the actual draft. A lot probably would have changed in rankings and scouting.

Gutenbumst is paid to do this and he got a F.

Your draft would have never happened. Your best picks were off the board by the time you "chose" them. Not the case with your 3rd rd pick, though. He went undrafted entirely. Coulda saved that pick for an actual impact player.

Gotta say, I kinda like this hindsight evaluation stuff. Makes me look like I know what the hell I'm doing when, in actuality, I'm as clueless as the next fan when it comes to recognizing talent outside of the obvious.

#apb4gm

I finally got curious:

Ross Blacklock, DL - 1st Round Mock - Went 2nd, 40 - 3 Career Starts, 3 sacks, 38 tackles, AV 4 (CUT)
Brandon Aiyuk, WR - 2nd Round Mock - Went 1st, 25 - 2900 yards, 20 TDs, AV 24
Terence Steele, OL - 3rd Round Mock - UDFA - 40 Career Starts, AV 22
Logan Wilson, LB - 4th Round Mock - Went 3rd, 65 - 30 Career Starts, 256 Tackles, 7 INTs, 12 TFLs, AV 18
Devin Duverney, WR - 5th Round Mock - Went 3rd, 92 - 23 Career Starts, 880 yards, 5 TDs, PB and AP Punt Returner, AV 12
Darrynton Evans, RB - 6th Round Mock - Went 3rd, 93 - 0 Career Starts, 196 total yards, 1 TD, AV 2 (CUT)
Kindle Vildor, CB - 6th Round Mock - Went 5th, 163 - 22 Careers Starts, 1 INT, 10 PDs, 1 Sack, AV 7
Jacob Breeland, TE - 6th Round Mock - UDFA - Training Camp Cut, AV 0
Trystan Colon-Castillo, OL - 7th Round Mock - UDFA, 4 Career Starts, AV 3
Kelly Bryant, QB - 7th Round Mock - Never signed to a team

Realistically it would need to look like this:
Ross Blacklock, DL - Pick 26 - AV 4
Logan Wilson, LB - Pick 62 - AV 18
Kindle Vildor, CB - Pick 94 - AV 7
Terence Steele, OL - Pick 175, AV 22
Trystan Colon-Castillo, OL - Pick 192, AV3
Jacob Breeland, TE - Pick 208, AV 0
Kelly Bryant, QB - Pick 209, AV 0

the draft is such a roll the dice hit miss thing, I usually just stick with a couple players I really like, even when I do tons of investigating I miss on far more then I hit, saying that, two of my most favorite that come to mind are Justin Jefferson, most recent, and Clay Mathews years ago, when Ted moved back into the first round to get him, he sealed his ability as a GM for me, Ted hit that draft with both Raji and Mathews out of the park.

I love the mock drafts, and all of the trivia concerning draft prospects ya'll bring, keep the good stuff coming

I generally think you are limited as a team by what you have on rookie contracts.

Through bad luck, bad strategy, bad drafting, just absolutely not getting enough.

Unfortunate for the seasons of Gary, Elgton and Stokes. Still not sure on Stokes, but seems like 3 home run picks, injuries ruin them all.

Bad strategy with Love and Dillon. Dillon is pretty good, nothing better than that, Love is a ?, but both just can't see the field enough to justify the picks in those slots.

Then bad drafting, 2019 has nothing other than Elgton and Gary and a bad pick in Savage. Guess Nijman needs to count here.

2020 you got one average starter in Runyan and are getting snaps from Dillon and Daguara.

2021, starters in Stokes and Myers. Newman I think still has a chance to be an RT, I like him there better than G. Slaton is trending in the right direction. Then just a few other guys who have been depth.


So 2019-2021, We got half seasons from Gary, Jenkins, Stokes, Nijman. Then just only two other starters in Myers and Runyan.


Thankfully 2022 looking pretty good. Early 2023 starters on rookie contracts:
O - Myers, Runyan, Tom/Nijman - Watson and Doubs - Maybe Jordan Love
D - Wyatt, Slaton, Walker, Stokes - Enegbare most probable starter till Gary is back.

Looking like a lot more and higher quality contribution.


I'm always the optimist, but get another good draft here and we should be a pretty competitive team regardless of QB.

Yoop wrote: ↑

16 Jan 2023 09:26

I actually think it's good to groom young QB's, but three or four years translates to a year or two to long,

lol

Hey yoop, how long did we groom Aaron Rodgers?

Three years. And he turned out so well for us that you're now too emotionally attached/anxious to fathom life without him.

there was absolutely no reason to jump up and take Love, unless ya want to accept that reason Guty tried to sell us, we needed offensive help, the 3 very raw receivers he took in 2018 where inconsistent at best, we also needed help on defense at ILB, or TE, The Love pick set us back, it didn't move us forward.

Yeah, and Favre needed offensive help while we were a perennial playoff team. Instead, Tempsen drafted Rodgers and Collins, and we went 4-12. What an idiot, right?

and we really still don't know if Love has the ability to win.

The point of moving forward with Love is not because we know he can win, it's because we need to find out if he can play at a high-level as a starting QB.

Rodgers didn't win much in his first year as a starter. 6-10 record. A lot of Favre fans gloated about it because they were convinced we couldn't possibly win without our star QB (SOUND FAMILIAR??) while Favre had a pretty good season for NY, then he almost went to the SuperBowl with MIN.

And yet, going with Rodgers was still the correct decision then. Well now, history has repeated itself.

Grooming rodgers was 18 years ago. Leagues a little different now by the way. Mainly due to the structure of rookie contracts.