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Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 08:32
by Yoop
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑09 Jun 2020 21:03
None of that was even discussed in my post. This is an argument with ghosts.
Lupe hit this out of the park
The minute TT drafted Randall and Rollins, Hayward was gone. It would have been a waste of resources to pay Hayward even if he did get peanuts from the Chargers.
Randall was bound to start somewhere, this had nothing to do with Capers, neither of Hayward or Hyde had done enough to win a start, and Ted didn't draft those guys to sit on the bench and pay starter money to guys that had not earned it.
sure coaches and cords have input, no one really said they didn't, but in this situation Capers input wasn't even needed, the prof is in the pudding (play) as they say, you people freaked out because they excelled elsewhere, and as with Z and hundreds of other players that is not uncommon, you people blew all of this out of preportion simply because it gave you ammo to hate on a cord you'd been hating on for years, versus holding Ted accountable for not getting him the talent, Guty just provided Pettine, it was always a lack of talent available issue
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 08:53
by NCF
The biggest issue with the whole Randall/Rollins/Hayward picture, now, is that everyone forgets that Sam Shields was part of this equation heading into 2016 when his career has abruptly cut short. This isn't Capers fault or Ted's or anyone's. No one saw this coming and our whole 2016 run might look different if Sam was still back there patrolling the secondary.
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 09:06
by Drj820
NCF wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 08:53
The biggest issue with the whole Randall/Rollins/Hayward picture, now, is that everyone forgets that Sam Shields was part of this equation heading into 2016 when his career has abruptly cut short. This isn't Capers fault or Ted's or anyone's. No one saw this coming and our whole 2016 run might look different if Sam was still back there patrolling the secondary.
Good point Sam Shields was awesome and it is true that we suddenly forget about him when we are pondering why the secondary started sucking.
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 09:18
by Yoop
Drj820 wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 09:06
NCF wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 08:53
The biggest issue with the whole Randall/Rollins/Hayward picture, now, is that everyone forgets that Sam Shields was part of this equation heading into 2016 when his career has abruptly cut short. This isn't Capers fault or Ted's or anyone's. No one saw this coming and our whole 2016 run might look different if Sam was still back there patrolling the secondary.
Good point Sam Shields was awesome and it is true that we suddenly forget about him when we are pondering why the secondary started sucking.
all true, we do forget Shields in this, and it also sheds light on the fact that Capers lost practicall all starter talent at not only CB, but also other position groups year after year, to often he was forced to use marginal talent, when people say injury's are no excuse, they say that as though it's true, the only people there fooling are themselves, of course injury's matter.
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 09:37
by Drj820
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 09:18
Drj820 wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 09:06
NCF wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 08:53
The biggest issue with the whole Randall/Rollins/Hayward picture, now, is that everyone forgets that Sam Shields was part of this equation heading into 2016 when his career has abruptly cut short. This isn't Capers fault or Ted's or anyone's. No one saw this coming and our whole 2016 run might look different if Sam was still back there patrolling the secondary.
Good point Sam Shields was awesome and it is true that we suddenly forget about him when we are pondering why the secondary started sucking.
all true, we do forget Shields in this, and it also sheds light on the fact that Capers lost practicall all starter talent at not only CB, but also other position groups year after year, to often he was forced to use marginal talent, when people say injury's are no excuse, they say that as though it's true, the only people there fooling are themselves, of course injury's matter.
injuries matter, and every year teams expected to be contenders get destroyed by injuries and no longer are contenders. For a stretch under McCarthy it felt like that was us every year, last year we escaped this fate. It may be all luck, or lafleur may have done things a better way.
But last year it happened to the Rams and Eagles
The year before it happened to the Falcons
every year there are examples.
"injuries are no excuse" is only true in the sense that the best run teams have quality depth and can fair better up to a point...beyond that it is a silly thing to say/believe lol
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 10:26
by Pckfn23
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 08:32
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑09 Jun 2020 21:03
None of that was even discussed in my post. This is an argument with ghosts.
Lupe hit this out of the park
The minute TT drafted Randall and Rollins, Hayward was gone. It would have been a waste of resources to pay Hayward even if he did get peanuts from the Chargers.
Randall was bound to start somewhere, this had nothing to do with Capers, neither of Hayward or Hyde had done enough to win a start, and Ted didn't draft those guys to sit on the bench and pay starter money to guys that had not earned it.
but in this situation Capers input wasn't even needed, the prof is in the pudding (play) as they say, you people freaked out because they excelled elsewhere, and as with Z and hundreds of other players that is not uncommon, you people blew all of this out of preportion simply because it gave you ammo to hate on a cord you'd been hating on for years, versus holding Ted accountable for not getting him the talent, Guty just provided Pettine, it was always a lack of talent available issue
Again, none of this was even mentioned, discussed, or argued right now. There just really is no point in rehashing this, history keeps being rewritten, regardless.
sure coaches and cords have input, no one really said they didn't,
Unfortunately, you did...
Yoop wrote: ↑09 Jun 2020 10:34
Ted buys the grocery's, Capers
only connection to that is that he has to make the defense work
Unless, of course, you were actually talking about food stuffs and this was not an analogy.
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 12:03
by Yoop
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 10:26
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 08:32
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑09 Jun 2020 21:03
None of that was even discussed in my post. This is an argument with ghosts.
Lupe hit this out of the park
The minute TT drafted Randall and Rollins, Hayward was gone. It would have been a waste of resources to pay Hayward even if he did get peanuts from the Chargers.
Randall was bound to start somewhere, this had nothing to do with Capers, neither of Hayward or Hyde had done enough to win a start, and Ted didn't draft those guys to sit on the bench and pay starter money to guys that had not earned it.
but in this situation Capers input wasn't even needed, the prof is in the pudding (play) as they say, you people freaked out because they excelled elsewhere, and as with Z and hundreds of other players that is not uncommon, you people blew all of this out of preportion simply because it gave you ammo to hate on a cord you'd been hating on for years, versus holding Ted accountable for not getting him the talent, Guty just provided Pettine, it was always a lack of talent available issue
Again, none of this was even mentioned, discussed, or argued right now. There just really is no point in rehashing this, history keeps being rewritten, regardless.
sure coaches and cords have input, no one really said they didn't,
Unfortunately, you did...
Yoop wrote: ↑09 Jun 2020 10:34
Ted buys the grocery's, Capers
only connection to that is that he has to make the defense work
Unless, of course, you were actually talking about food stuffs and this was not an analogy.
I was talking about Hayward and Hyde and how and what brought about there departure and how little capers input was needed for Ted to make that decision, the only reason this is rehashed is because you don't want to except these reality's, instead you still want to blame Capers instead of laying the blame at Teds feet where it belongs, own it.
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 12:10
by go pak go
I wanted Erik Kendricks then. Looks like I am still right about it now.
But I do have trouble about "wasting resources" or whatnot on positions on draft day. What matters is if the player fits the team and if the player is good. Anything beyond will work itself out. You can always get players on the field if they deserve to be on the field with the exception of maybe QB.
I mean I find it hard to use the argument on one stretch it was a waste of resources to use a 1st on the secondary 2015 because of what we had but then at the same time complain about not using a 1st on a WR in 2015 or 2016 when we had a very similar situation in the WR room. (lots of depth and talent)
Nelson (signed to a long term deal in 2014), Cobb (signed to a long term deal in 2015), Adams (drafted Rd 2 in 2014), Montgomery (drafted in Rd 3 in 2015)
Ultimately for whatever reason the defense of drafted players and the system failed 2015 - 2017. Some due to injury (Nelson/Cobb and Shields). Others due to players not developing for whatever reason (Rollins/Randle, Montgomery, Spriggs). Both Ted and Capers essentially lost their jobs because of it. MM lost his job because of it a year later. I would say all parties were accountable and all parties lost their jobs. Does anything else beyond this matter?
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 12:55
by Pckfn23
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 12:03
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 10:26
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 08:32
Lupe hit this out of the park
The minute TT drafted Randall and Rollins, Hayward was gone. It would have been a waste of resources to pay Hayward even if he did get peanuts from the Chargers.
Randall was bound to start somewhere, this had nothing to do with Capers, neither of Hayward or Hyde had done enough to win a start, and Ted didn't draft those guys to sit on the bench and pay starter money to guys that had not earned it.
but in this situation Capers input wasn't even needed, the prof is in the pudding (play) as they say, you people freaked out because they excelled elsewhere, and as with Z and hundreds of other players that is not uncommon, you people blew all of this out of preportion simply because it gave you ammo to hate on a cord you'd been hating on for years, versus holding Ted accountable for not getting him the talent, Guty just provided Pettine, it was always a lack of talent available issue
Again, none of this was even mentioned, discussed, or argued right now. There just really is no point in rehashing this, history keeps being rewritten, regardless.
sure coaches and cords have input, no one really said they didn't,
Unfortunately, you did...
Yoop wrote: ↑09 Jun 2020 10:34
Ted buys the grocery's, Capers
only connection to that is that he has to make the defense work
Unless, of course, you were actually talking about food stuffs and this was not an analogy.
I was talking about Hayward and Hyde and how and what brought about there departure and how little capers input was needed for Ted to make that decision, the only reason this is rehashed is because you don't want to except these reality's, instead you still want to blame Capers instead of laying the blame at Teds feet where it belongs, own it.
Again, I mentioned none of that. The only person I mentioned of the people you just highlighted was Hayward and that was ONLY in the context of him leaving a year AFTER Williams left. No one else was mentioned. No other context was discussed. No one was being blamed. This is an argument against points that are not being made here.
The only other point I made is that coaches do get a say in who is drafted, signed, or released. The contrary point that they just have to make it work with who they get without input is false.
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 13:39
by salmar80
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 12:55
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 12:03
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 10:26
Again, none of this was even mentioned, discussed, or argued right now. There just really is no point in rehashing this, history keeps being rewritten, regardless.
Unfortunately, you did...
Unless, of course, you were actually talking about food stuffs and this was not an analogy.
I was talking about Hayward and Hyde and how and what brought about there departure and how little capers input was needed for Ted to make that decision, the only reason this is rehashed is because you don't want to except these reality's, instead you still want to blame Capers instead of laying the blame at Teds feet where it belongs, own it.
Again, I mentioned none of that. The only person I mentioned of the people you just highlighted was Hayward and that was ONLY in the context of him leaving a year AFTER Williams left. No one else was mentioned. No other context was discussed. No one was being blamed. This is an argument against points that are not being made here.
The only other point I made is that coaches do get a say in who is drafted, signed, or released. The contrary point that they just have to make it work with who they get without input is false.
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 13:52
by Pckfn23
salmar80 wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 13:39
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 12:55
Yoop wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 12:03
I was talking about Hayward and Hyde and how and what brought about there departure and how little capers input was needed for Ted to make that decision, the only reason this is rehashed is because you don't want to except these reality's, instead you still want to blame Capers instead of laying the blame at Teds feet where it belongs, own it.
Again, I mentioned none of that. The only person I mentioned of the people you just highlighted was Hayward and that was ONLY in the context of him leaving a year AFTER Williams left. No one else was mentioned. No other context was discussed. No one was being blamed. This is an argument against points that are not being made here.
The only other point I made is that coaches do get a say in who is drafted, signed, or released. The contrary point that they just have to make it work with who they get without input is false.
Totally. Why I didn't want to get into the actual Capers debate for millionth time.
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 13:52
by YoHoChecko
The Packers defense is AWESOME except for a game-changing ILB and a reliable 2-way DL2 next to Kenny.
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 14:02
by go pak go
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 13:52
The Packers defense is AWESOME except for a game-changing ILB and a reliable 2-way DL2 next to Kenny.
Yeah I really hope Kirksey works out for us and we can seriously look at using a #1 or #2 pick on a Dlineman next year.
Though I have heard from Nagler that Treyvon Hester will be an upgrade over Lancaster. This defense would be awesome if he can be our 2014 Letroy Guoin.
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 14:04
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 12:10
I wanted Erik Kendricks then. Looks like I am still right about it now.
But I do have trouble about "wasting resources" or whatnot on positions on draft day. What matters is if the player fits the team and if the player is good. Anything beyond will work itself out. You can always get players on the field if they deserve to be on the field with the exception of maybe QB.
I mean I find it hard to use the argument on one stretch it was a waste of resources to use a 1st on the secondary 2015 because of what we had but then at the same time complain about not using a 1st on a WR in 2015 or 2016 when we had a very similar situation in the WR room. (lots of depth and talent)
Nelson (signed to a long term deal in 2014), Cobb (signed to a long term deal in 2015), Adams (drafted Rd 2 in 2014), Montgomery (drafted in Rd 3 in 2015)
Ultimately for whatever reason the defense of drafted players and the system failed 2015 - 2017. Some due to injury (Nelson/Cobb and Shields). Others due to players not developing for whatever reason (Rollins/Randle, Montgomery, Spriggs). Both Ted and Capers essentially lost their jobs because of it. MM lost his job because of it a year later. I would say all parties were accountable and all parties lost their jobs. Does anything else beyond this matter?
who didn't want Eric Kendricks, plenty of us did? wasted resources? you mean like the Love Pick, or the Gary Pick
a GM has to take positions of need, unless he plans to buy them in FA, and Randal was the best DB remaining undrafted, and he was never as poor a CB as some think, his 2nd season he was the best CB we had.
you keep going back to this WR group, now it's the extensions, none of that Matters if they can't play, and they couldn't, that reality, I know you'd like to shift more blame to Rodgers to advance your argument, feel free, but it wont change the fact that neither of Nelson or Cobb ever played up to prior performance, actually they down right sucked and needed to be replaced.
Rollins was a miss, that stuff happens and nobody needs to take the blame for that, and Hayward had one great season out of 4, and Hyde while a great rotational player was never the caliber of Dix or Burnett.
Brandon you new damn well when I said the part about the grocery's and a coach in put I was specifically talking about the two players in this convo, and I explained why Capers didn't need to offer any more advice to Ted then simply showing him game film, which Ted without any doubt in my mind had already seen, this is no conspiracy or made up stuff, they didn't get extensions because they had not proven they deserve one considering the roster we had, again you twist or fail to read the true intent of a comment and instead beat on a person for not saying everything just perfectly right, then you drag out the conversation with always having to have the last word, your right, we didn't have to go down this road again, your the reason why we did.
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 14:22
by Pckfn23
It's clear what was said and the above is not it. The intent was to prove the DC had no say in the roster moves and thus the GM was completely to blame for all roster moves. Moving the goalposts now, does not negate that. Plenty of blame to go around for that time. The DC has been gone for 3 offseasons, the GM for 2. Let's not rewrite history after all this time.
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 15:09
by Labrev
go pak go wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 14:02
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 13:52
The Packers defense is AWESOME except for a game-changing ILB and a reliable 2-way DL2 next to Kenny.
Yeah I really hope Kirksey works out for us and we can seriously look at using a #1 or #2 pick on a Dlineman next year.
Though I have heard from Nagler that Treyvon Hester will be an upgrade over Lancaster. This defense would be awesome if he can be our 2014 Letroy Guoin.
Kingsley Keke could be a real wildcard here, too: good athleticism and flashed some talent. Who knows, maybe a year of an NFL S&C training regimen allows him to see the field and give us that boost...
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 15:40
by Yoop
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 14:22
It's clear what was said and the above is not it. The intent was to prove the DC had no say in the roster moves and thus the GM was completely to blame for all roster moves. Moving the goalposts now, does not negate that. Plenty of blame to go around for that time. The DC has been gone for 3 offseasons, the GM for 2. Let's not rewrite history after all this time.
then stop trying to re write it, NO the intent was not to say that Capers and other coaches don't have input, the point was that in this case NO input was needed, my God just use common sense, why would Capers put himself on the line asking Ted to give starter contracts to two back up players? and besides all this Ted has final say anyway.
duhhhh, like I said, the intent wasn't to imply that coaches don't have input, you are being less then honest concerning your comprehension of what I said, any one thats followed football knows that GM's rely on coach info concerning personal decisions, but in this case that info was readily available to Ted, and I just layed em out for you, no need to talk down to me as though I'am some child here, and lack the understanding of the operations of a NFL FO tier, or how it works.
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 15:44
by Pckfn23
Ted buys the grocery's, Capers only connection to that is that he has to make the defense work
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 16:10
by Yoop
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020 15:44
Ted buys the grocery's, Capers only connection to that is that he has to make the defense work
figures you'd yank that out of context, bottom line though that is how it works, and when Parcels said it years ago that how it was working when he said it, a GM does not take orders from the coach, it's the other way around, and when you look at all the missed draft picks ted made on defense maybe Capers should have had more input.
the point is, you butted into this convo to say other people where wrong, however when saying Williams left a year prior to Haywards release it gets me to thinking the Hayward departure could have been a personality issue, since Willy was already gone Ted would have surely given starter money to Hayward, he had Randall on a rookie deal (cheap, Shields at what 11 mil. he could have afforded Hayward, so obviously it's either personality or his play didn't warrant it, (and it hadn't ) it's that simple,
Re: The Packers Defense is Awesome...Except
Posted: 10 Jun 2020 21:35
by go pak go
I mean if the coaches couldn't work Hayward's personality but the Chargers could one year later....I call that a coaching problem.
Just like I call it a coaching problem from Washington and Baltimore that they had a serious disconnect on P and Z Smith. We benefited. But when a player leaves and the first year being out of town they turn to near all pro level, I would call that a coaching failure.
I will not blame any coach for Hyde. That was all TT. Hyde produced in GB. Hyde got better each year in GB and Hyde had a great personality and team leader while in GB. Hyde was really the only bright spot on that defense toward the end of the year in 2016. That one still blows my mind why we let hi go.
But alas, Raven Greene will be better for us now anyways.