I don't expect this to happen, Guty said grooming QB's for 3 years is a proven plan , he's the boss.
AGH!!! I don't know why I am so bothered by this, but I am. Not even directed at you, [mention]Yoop[/mention], but just in general, I don't get the hand wringing. Like, we are so stupid because the calendar of QB transition is not what other teams do...? Have you looked around the league? Who in the $%@# is doing it right? Last time I checked, half the league has $%@# their QB situation and yet we are the stupid ones for having too much invested.
I don't expect this to happen, Guty said grooming QB's for 3 years is a proven plan , he's the boss.
AGH!!! I don't know why I am so bothered by this, but I am. Not even directed at you, @Yoop, but just in general, I don't get the hand wringing. Like, we are so stupid because the calendar of QB transition is not what other teams do...? Have you looked around the league? Who in the $%@# is doing it right? Last time I checked, half the league has $%@# their QB situation and yet we are the stupid ones for having too much invested.
rarely do GM's draft QB's in round one to groom, they do so to replace there present QB, and usually within two seasons, so the Love pick is also different in that way, also this was a covid season and we have cap restraints, and also the last remaining years with a HOF QB, so to me every pick should focus on improving existing talent.
lis, I have no issues with drafting QB's later to groom as we did with Brooks etc, more so though, minus these other circumstances, your right teams just wont spend a roster spot grooming QB's these days, heck most here didn't want to carry 3 QB's till Rodgers lost most of the season a few years back, imo we should always be grooming a QB capable of winning, and those type QB are more readily found in rounds 2 through 4, maybe even round 5, after that amounts to a hope and a prayer, anyway, I think the roster spot is the biggest reason, seemed like it use to be for us.
AGH!!! I don't know why I am so bothered by this, but I am. Not even directed at you, @Yoop, but just in general, I don't get the hand wringing. Like, we are so stupid because the calendar of QB transition is not what other teams do...? Have you looked around the league? Who in the $%@# is doing it right? Last time I checked, half the league has $%@# their QB situation and yet we are the stupid ones for having too much invested.
I am getting bothered, too. This kind of stuff has been all over Insider Inbox and Ask Vic lately. I guess all those people forgot what Rodgers looked like from 2017-2019. From the outside looking in, I can't see how Gute could have known Rodgers would make a huge leap in 2020.
AGH!!! I don't know why I am so bothered by this, but I am. Not even directed at you, @Yoop, but just in general, I don't get the hand wringing. Like, we are so stupid because the calendar of QB transition is not what other teams do...? Have you looked around the league? Who in the $%@# is doing it right? Last time I checked, half the league has $%@# their QB situation and yet we are the stupid ones for having too much invested.
I am getting bothered, too. This kind of stuff has been all over Insider Inbox and Ask Vic lately. I guess all those people forgot what Rodgers looked like from 2017-2019. From the outside looking in, I can't see how Gute could have known Rodgers would make a huge leap in 2020.
ya he looked so bad the FO gave him a 140 m extension in aug 018
AGH!!! I don't know why I am so bothered by this, but I am. Not even directed at you, @Yoop, but just in general, I don't get the hand wringing. Like, we are so stupid because the calendar of QB transition is not what other teams do...? Have you looked around the league? Who in the $%@# is doing it right? Last time I checked, half the league has $%@# their QB situation and yet we are the stupid ones for having too much invested.
I am getting bothered, too. This kind of stuff has been all over Insider Inbox and Ask Vic lately. I guess all those people forgot what Rodgers looked like from 2017-2019. From the outside looking in, I can't see how Gute could have known Rodgers would make a huge leap in 2020.
The blame will always be on Rodgers despite how atrocious those teams were in 2017 and 2018. 2019 you have a brand new scheme and if you look at history of this Shannahan style offense it usually struggles a bit year one. And if you want to consider Rodgers struggling you just don’t watch other teams.
MM gets fired and goes to Dallas where even when he had his QB all he did was amass garbage time yards. TT gets fired and the Packers hid him in a closet. Rest his soul but the man had lost his mind years before being fired. It’s sad but true and something should have been done years prior.
Meanwhile Rodgers gets the extension, you actually bring some god damn talent onto the team, and you run a scheme that actually gets players open and Rodgers looks good. Correlation: Don’t suck at your job and watch things go well. Don’t take a safety who wanted to be a baseball player to play CB. Don’t take a basketball player to play CB. Don’t take someone who doesn’t translate to a 3-4 defense to play DE. Don’t give a long term deal to an often injured one year wonder. Don’t sign an aging Jimmy Graham to a big deal when he doesn’t fit. I would like to say don’t go into the season with the same glaring holes you had the season prior but the Packers haven’t figured that one out yet.
Re: General Packer News 2021
Posted: 03 Feb 2021 15:59
by Pckfn23
You do realize that you are actually arguing against Rodgers being as good as you believe he is, right?
You are making the argument that he needs a better team, coach, and scheme around him to be better than average.
AGH!!! I don't know why I am so bothered by this, but I am. Not even directed at you, @Yoop, but just in general, I don't get the hand wringing. Like, we are so stupid because the calendar of QB transition is not what other teams do...? Have you looked around the league? Who in the $%@# is doing it right? Last time I checked, half the league has $%@# their QB situation and yet we are the stupid ones for having too much invested.
I am getting bothered, too. This kind of stuff has been all over Insider Inbox and Ask Vic lately. I guess all those people forgot what Rodgers looked like from 2017-2019. From the outside looking in, I can't see how Gute could have known Rodgers would make a huge leap in 2020.
ya he looked so bad the FO gave him a 140 m extension in aug 018
Your timeline should have more background and context.
2016 2nd half of the season Rodgers lifted the team on his back on an amazing "run the table" run to go from "out of the playoffs" to finishing 10-6 and winning the North and going all the way to the NFC Title game.
2017 season starts well and then Rodgers gets hurt and is out for the season with his 2nd broken collar bone and therefore not putting any film since his remarkable run.
August 2018 the Packers extend Rodgers.
September 2018 Rodgers has a major knee injury but plays the whole season on it though not looking the same. Coach gets fired due to primarily poor offensive performance. Defense under Mike Pettine actually looked like the bright spot even though the talent was deficient.
2019 a new coach comes in. Defense looks awesome after signing new FA's. Rodgers's stats are down significantly. Particularly his accuracy and completion % are down. Week 17 in particular ends up being one of the worst games ever for Aaron Rodgers and you start wondering if the quarterback, who had significant injuries in 2013, 2014, 2017 and 2018 will ever be the same again.
2020 comes and Rodgers is league MVP and all the things that made Rodgers great before seems to be back.
AGH!!! I don't know why I am so bothered by this, but I am. Not even directed at you, @Yoop, but just in general, I don't get the hand wringing. Like, we are so stupid because the calendar of QB transition is not what other teams do...? Have you looked around the league? Who in the $%@# is doing it right? Last time I checked, half the league has $%@# their QB situation and yet we are the stupid ones for having too much invested.
I am getting bothered, too. This kind of stuff has been all over Insider Inbox and Ask Vic lately. I guess all those people forgot what Rodgers looked like from 2017-2019. From the outside looking in, I can't see how Gute could have known Rodgers would make a huge leap in 2020.
The blame will always be on Rodgers despite how atrocious those teams were in 2017 and 2018. 2019 you have a brand new scheme and if you look at history of this Shannahan style offense it usually struggles a bit year one. And if you want to consider Rodgers struggling you just don’t watch other teams.
MM gets fired and goes to Dallas where even when he had his QB all he did was amass garbage time yards. TT gets fired and the Packers hid him in a closet. Rest his soul but the man had lost his mind years before being fired. It’s sad but true and something should have been done years prior.
Meanwhile Rodgers gets the extension, you actually bring some god damn talent onto the team, and you run a scheme that actually gets players open and Rodgers looks good. Correlation: Don’t suck at your job and watch things go well. Don’t take a safety who wanted to be a baseball player to play CB. Don’t take a basketball player to play CB. Don’t take someone who doesn’t translate to a 3-4 defense to play DE. Don’t give a long term deal to an often injured one year wonder. Don’t sign an aging Jimmy Graham to a big deal when he doesn’t fit. I would like to say don’t go into the season with the same glaring holes you had the season prior but the Packers haven’t figured that one out yet.
yep Rodgers gets the blame for antiquated schemes and lack of receivers those scheme required to produce, we where lucky two years ago when Jones and Williams found there a game, same with Lazard, this year Tonyan and MVS stepped it up, but for the first 2 years those players didn't produce a lot, and for the year or so prior the cupboard was pretty bare, I doubt very many thought Rodgers had anything to do with those problems or was a average QB either.
I agree with some of your comments concerning Ted, if you rarely use FA, then it's really hard to build a winning roster, by the time you coach up the players to be good starters there going to the highest bidder in FA, I hate fa, but thats how it works these days, Ted was old school, one of Wolfs reason for retiring when he did was FA, he didn't like it either.
I get the draft misses, 3 defensive position a fixer has to prioritize, DT, CB, and edge rusher, if you don't dabble in FA, then your a fixer, which means you have to positional prioritize to those positions, these are just my opinions of course.
same with offense of course, been what 47 years since we've used a first on a TE (guessing here, it may be longer)
Guards, Jenkins in 3rd is the highest since Colledge, Lacy in 2 has to be the highest RB taken in 40 years, this is hard because the last first rounder on offense I remember besides last year was Rodgers, 15 years without a 1st round pick on offense, course this is Rodgers fault in a way too, minus him and we would have been spending lots of picks on offense
Re: General Packer News 2021
Posted: 09 Feb 2021 08:24
by Pckfn23
Balance wins Super Bowls, not pushing all your chips to the middle. More teams end up losing their shirts than winning a title when going all-in because they misunderstand why teams win. The Green Bay Packers and their fans (and players?) can’t look at the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and wonder why they didn’t take the same tact going “all-in” because that’s not really what Tampa did, at least not in a way that Green Bay could follow.
Tom Brady brought Rob Gronkowski out of retirement, likely for a year or two, and their success forestalls Brady’s retirement. So in that way, much like with the Packers and Rodgers, they knew they had this particular window.
But a look at their offseason doesn’t tell the story of a team “going all-in.” Their most significant free agent moves in the spring were the aforementioned Gronk and Brady. LeSean McCoy stunk, which is why they had to sign Leonard Fournette in the first place —that and an injury to Ronald Jones. Playoff Lenny wasn’t a luxury. He was a necessity.
Tampa built the foundation of this team before the 2020 offseason. After Lavonte David toiled in relative anonymity as a secret superstar, the Bucs spent high picks on their defense, adding Carlton Davis, Vita Vea, Devin White, Sean Murphy-Bunting and Jamel Dean.
Shaq Barrett bet on himself by signing a short-term deal with the Bucs, but that was back in 2019 when Jameis Winston was the quarterback. There’s no “all-in for 2020” there. And Ndamukong Suh will show up in the transaction page for the 2020 offseason, but he was a re-sign. He too came in ‘19.
In fact, the core of this team was nearly all in place with Brady arrived. Their major draft move to improve the offense, using a top-15 pick, came at right tackle, a long-time bug-a-boo spot for Tampa where they hit on an All-Pro player. They didn’t draft him because they were going all-in; they drafted him because he is a priority position player with freak traits at a position of dire need.
When fans say “go all-in,” what they usually mean is spend recklessly and without care for future season like the Saints have for the last decade. Like the Eagles did last year or for their “Dream Team.” Or like the Vikings did when they signed Kirk Cousins and ultimately had to gut their team.
Not only is “going all-in” not a winning strategy, it’s also just not usually how these teams win Super Bowls. Kansas City won last year because Patrick Mahomes, Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce and Chris Jones are monsters. They went “all-in” to draft Mahomes. The Bucs won Sunday because of JPP, Vea, Barrett, Bowles, White and David, not 2020 offseason moves aimed at winning now ... except for Brady.
The Packers have their quarterback.
Let’s quickly examine how the Packers viewed their offseason priorities. Brian Gutekunst reportedly wanted to sign Emmanuel Sanders and Austin Hooper after attempting to trade for Robbie Anderson at the deadline in 2019. He then insisted they wouldn’t wait to get a top receiver if they saw one they liked. When none materialized, the front office said they liked their developmental pieces better than the dart throws in the draft.
Were they not going all-in or did they correctly assess a Year 2 leap with Matt LaFleur for Aaron Rodgers, the growth of Robert Tonyan, addition by subtraction of Jimmy Graham and Geronimo Allison, and the big-play ability of guys like Marquez Valdes-Scantling and Allen Lazard? It’s not that they didn’t want to get better, but rather they didn’t see anyone who could have done more for them than what they had.
Critics will say “Just give up whatever for Will Fuller,” or “sign Robbie Anderson for however much he wants,” but the Bucs didn’t do that. Teams generally don’t win Super Bowls doing that.
Still, this was the best offense in football, Rodgers won MVP, and even against every top defense except the Bucs, the Packers found ways to put up 30 or more. They could have found more value in the draft, could have drafted an OT for additional depth for example. But when they opened the season, they boasted arguably the best left tackle in the league, Billy Turner who played well at right tackle, and a proven veteran backup in Rick Wagner.
That proven veteran backup played well in spurts for the Packers over the course of the season, but struggled against Jason Pierre-Paul and Shaq Barrett. You know who else did that? Everyone. Having a vet like Wagner is exactly what 31 other teams would have liked to have in that spot. The Chiefs would have traded their backup OTs for Wagner for all the BBQ in Kansas City.
Kevin King’s play contributed greatly to the loss to the Buccaneers, but between King, Josh Jackson, Chandon Sullivan and Ka’Dar Hollman opposite Jaire Alexander, clearly the Packers believed they had made sufficient investment at the position. They were wrong, but not out of apathy. They’d incorrectly judged the value of the players on their roster and likely the impact of losing Tramon Williams.
And to be clear, none of this exonerates the Packers draft, which prioritized positions that, particularly on Day 2, simply aren’t that valuable. AJ Dillon and Josiah Deguara could be good players, but you can find guys on Day 3 or in free agency to give you comparable productivity to what we’ll likely see from those guys. Prioritizing premium positions always makes more sense. Still, the Packers really did think those guys would help them this year. Unfortunately, they were wrong.
Going all-in isn’t inherently valuable. Building a balanced roster is. Tampa Bay won the Super Bowl because they put together the most balanced roster in the NFL. That takes time. It didn’t happen in one offseason. And much like the Bucs, the Packers are trying to do it through the draft. They didn’t maximize positional value at the top of their 2020 class, but we wondered if they had missed the chance to draft a field-tilter when they picked the raw Rashan Gary after signing The Smith Bros.
Gary turned into the second-best edge rusher on the Packers in 2020, surpassing Preston Smith who probably won’t be back in Green Bay in 2021. Guess who else exploded in Year 2 as a playmaker: Devin White. See also: Savage, Darnell.
Last year, the Packers finished 10th in passing defense DVOA. They regressed in 2020 thanks to a regression from Preston Smith (and arguably both Smiths), the lack of development from high picks like King and Josh Jackson, and a coordinator who ultimately was allowed to walk when his contract expired. They invested in their secondary like the Bucs did; they just didn’t get the same quality of player. Too often we evaluate process based on the outcomes. If Josh Jackson turned into Carlton Davis, are people complaining about not going all-in?
Tampa didn’t have to rob Peter to pay Paul for this Super Bowl title. They’ll have a bill come due this offseason when Barrett, David and Chris Godwin need new contracts. But they built this team much the same way the Chiefs built their Super Bowl roster: putting together balance and dropping the quarterback in as the finishing touch.
The Packers already have the quarterback. They’re working on the balance part. Still, this Green Bay roster boasted enough talent to win a Super Bowl. We saw Sunday night that had they beaten the Bucs, they very well could be celebrating a title today. That’s precisely why Mike Pettine and Shawn Mennenga cleared out their offices at 1265 Lombardi Ave.
Once again, Green Bay finds itself imbalanced, with an offense that can beat anyone but a defense still too inconsistent to do something like hold the Chiefs to 9 points in the Super Bowl. That’s what Joe Barry will brought in to address. Presumably the offseason will include additions at corner and on the edge. Building a balanced roster will help the Packers again reach a Super Bowl. And if they win it, no one will care if they didn’t “go all-in” to do it.
why did you delete the Atlantic article that said how Gutkunst missed on a WR all the way through the 3rd round, and how the Bucs used a steller draft class and aquired Brady, Gronk, and Brown to win the SB and beat us, both Gronk and Brown scored in the SB and had other key catches to extend the offense.
Re: General Packer News 2021
Posted: 09 Feb 2021 09:32
by Labrev
Tampa Bay was able to build that team because they did not have a QB worth a damn to worry about paying a large part of the cap, so by the time they signed Brady -- one of the best QBs to *ever* play -- they had a pretty loaded roster, not unlike when Favre went to the Vikings that one year (not so much the other year lol). Shoot, the Bucs were competitive even last year with Jameis and his 30 INTs at QB.
why did you delete the Atlantic article that said how Gutkunst missed on a WR all the way through the 3rd round, and how the Bucs used a steller draft class and aquired Brady, Gronk, and Brown to win the SB and beat us, both Gronk and Brown scored in the SB and had other key catches to extend the offense.
To be fair, the Packers asked Antonio if he wanted to play in GB and Antonio said no.
Re: General Packer News 2021
Posted: 09 Feb 2021 10:15
by Scott4Pack
23, thanks for posting that article. I went “all in” and read it!
Seriously, it all makes sense. Unfortunately, it also means that our D needs infusion at three levels. Our CB group needs help for Jaire, for sure. Is Sullivan still improving? I don’t know. But I’d favor finding TWO new CBs. And the hard to find ILB is a must. I like our young guys there, but let’s find a FA there.
I also wonder what Barry will do differently. Surely, he had that conversation with MLF.
23, thanks for posting that article. I went “all in” and read it!
Seriously, it all makes sense. Unfortunately, it also means that our D needs infusion at three levels. Our CB group needs help for Jaire, for sure. Is Sullivan still improving? I don’t know. But I’d favor finding TWO new CBs. And the hard to find ILB is a must. I like our young guys there, but let’s find a FA there.
I also wonder what Barry will do differently. Surely, he had that conversation with MLF.
Yeah. I look at our defense and I see at least CB, DL and ILB/Safety as places for upgrade.
Add that with a OT and an offensive playmaker and that starts to become a number of needs.
I don't expect this to happen, Guty said grooming QB's for 3 years is a proven plan , he's the boss.
AGH!!! I don't know why I am so bothered by this, but I am. Not even directed at you, @Yoop, but just in general, I don't get the hand wringing. Like, we are so stupid because the calendar of QB transition is not what other teams do...? Have you looked around the league? Who in the $%@# is doing it right? Last time I checked, half the league has $%@# their QB situation and yet we are the stupid ones for having too much invested.
Weird, for some reason I keep responding to your posts. Guess were on the same page on a few things. My question is, do you think QBs such as Marcus Mariota, Blain Gabbert and throw in Sam Darnold would have been better off sitting and learning as opposed to being thrown into the fire,
I personally do.
These guys are being drafted by garbage teams that have no interest in developing they're talent. They just want to sell tickets and push the new face of the franchise.
In Mariota's case, sitting for a year or two would have made a world of difference considering the beatings he took his first couple of seasons.
Now the Titans have a quality team and a pretty good offensive line. As opposed to the turnstile one they had when he was out there.
I don't expect this to happen, Guty said grooming QB's for 3 years is a proven plan , he's the boss.
AGH!!! I don't know why I am so bothered by this, but I am. Not even directed at you, @Yoop, but just in general, I don't get the hand wringing. Like, we are so stupid because the calendar of QB transition is not what other teams do...? Have you looked around the league? Who in the $%@# is doing it right? Last time I checked, half the league has $%@# their QB situation and yet we are the stupid ones for having too much invested.
Weird, for some reason I keep responding to your posts. Guess were on the same page on a few things. My question is, do you think QBs such as Marcus Mariota, Blain Gabbert and throw in Sam Darnold would have been better off sitting and learning as opposed to being thrown into the fire,
I personally do.
These guys are being drafted by garbage teams that have no interest in developing they're talent. They just want to sell tickets and push the new face of the franchise.
In Mariota's case, sitting for a year or two would have made a world of difference considering the beatings he took his first couple of seasons.
Now the Titans have a quality team and a pretty good offensive line. As opposed to the turnstile one they had when he was out there.
I think each situation is very different, but yes, I think most of these guys do benefit by sitting first. It's difficult with the pressure placed on the scouting side, the coaching side, and the QB's themselves. So often, if all of those three aren't aligned properly, you are going to have issues.
