Page 3 of 11
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 08:28
by go pak go
It's too early at this point but if the progression continues these next few weeks, it's going to be Rodgers and it should be Rodgers.
The dude is playing at a really high level right now. It's crazy that a 3 TD performance and 31 points with very few possessions is actually disappointing because it should have been 5 TDs.
Winning the next 2 games with strong passing effort from Rodgers, especially on Xmas and on national television Sunday Night vs MN, will cement Rodgers as the MVP.
It's his to lose right now. Not saying he is a lock because he can lose it. But it's absolutely his to lose.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 08:28
by NCF
Yoop wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 08:26
NCF wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 07:44
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 07:41
Yeah that’s probably true. He’s fourth in Vegas odds and they know what they’re doing. I’m just saying he’d be MY vote right now, and it’s fluid, and there’s a case for it. I’m not making a prediction or worrying about how others would vote. I’m saying this is how I would, and why.
I think Taylor can win it. He needs a split QB vote. Say Brady and Rodgers each get equal votes. Next, he needs to do a little more to hit the national radar. Eclipse 2,000 yards, for example. Peterson had a great year in 2012, but rode a hot December to the award. Taylor can't cool off at all. If he stays hot, he just may run away with MVP if voters are not sold on one QB over another.
really, is there any benefit for the GB Packers if Rodgers wins MVP? not imo, it wont raise his compensation value when we trade him, and would improve HIS bargaining power to ask for more money from us should we try and retain him.
IMO he probably deserves the award as much as any other QB, but I've felt other positional players over the years deserved the award just as much as the QB's who won it, Pederson won it 9 years ago, but it has turned into a QB award, the award has become a personal achievement thing versus most valuable team player award, I know a fine line separates the two, but imo the award should go to the player who most helped there team, and obviously that is most often the QB, or a RB, there production is more easily seen, the last time a defensive player won it some of our forum members where a glimmer in there pappy's eye
Lawrence Taylor back in 1986, 35 years ago, 1982 saw the award go to Mark Mosely a Kicker, those type selections imo align more with the meaning of the award, problem is those great defensive players, scorers have to compete with the more glamorous positions like QB. as great a player as Aaron Donald has been, he didn't stand a chance of getting a MVP when up against Mahomes in 2018.
rant over.
Yeah, this isn't even Rodgers best year. He is missing a lot of the volume stats that would put you at the top of these lists, but he is #1 in the NFL in QB Rating and a lot of efficiency measures. The question of "which QB is playing the best football", I think it's Rodgers pretty easily. Just don't think that is what drives the opinions of the majority of voters.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 08:30
by paco
NCF wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 08:19
paco wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 08:16
BF004 wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 08:01
If Brady whimpers into the close, I could definitely see some of the voters considering the whole vaccination thing and maybe vote Taylor if it’s close enough because of that.
However it should be noted Taylor isn’t even 3rd in the odds yet. He is 4th behind Mahomes. KC now the #1 seed, which seems to matter a lot, so he needs a really really really hot close to even be in real consideration.
I can totally see Mahomes going ape the final games and voters giving it to him. People are so hard up to make Mahomes the next greatest thing and his struggles this year have been frustrating for them. Needless to say, there will be a lot of people not happy with whoever ends up with the MVP this year.
Just a quick glance, but Mahomes doesn't look like he has the schedule to rip off a huge finish.
Maybe not. But he's 4th in yards, tied for 5th with Rodgers in TD's. His INTs are higher, but if he puts up a few solid games, he's going to be in consideration. Especially with them as the top seed. Might be a year where the guy with the most 2nd place votes gets pushed over the top.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 08:32
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 08:26
really, is there any benefit for the GB Packers if Rodgers wins MVP? not imo, it wont raise his compensation value when we trade him, and would improve HIS bargaining power to ask for more money from us should we try and retain him.
I'm sorry but if Rodgers wins the SB and wins two MVP's in a row....oh yeah. It's going to make his asking price really, really high. Brady is also helping with that asking price being top 2 or 4 consideration for MVP because it also alludes that Rodgers can do this for another 4 - 7 years.
Rodgers trade value will demand more than Stafford if this thing ends up well and it should too.
I mean take me for example. I was absolutely ready to move on in 2022/2023 for the new era. But after watching what Tom has done the past few years and watching what Rodgers has done the past three years with MLF...I'm definitely seeing the benefits of trying to make it happen of keeping #12 in GB. I know full well we would have to still have a rebuild year in 2022 but if Rodgers and the Packers can agree on something that allows the team to be aggressive and create another window in 23 - 25...I'd be very happy to keep this thing going. And I'd have to think GB is thinking this more and more too.
That alone raises the trade value. The price has to be really, really good for the Packers to want to let him leave.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 08:42
by RingoCStarrQB
go pak go wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 08:32
Yoop wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 08:26
really, is there any benefit for the GB Packers if Rodgers wins MVP? not imo, it wont raise his compensation value when we trade him, and would improve HIS bargaining power to ask for more money from us should we try and retain him.
I'm sorry but if Rodgers wins the SB and wins two MVP's in a row....oh yeah. It's going to make his asking price really, really high. Brady is also helping with that asking price being top 2 or 4 consideration for MVP because it also alludes that Rodgers can do this for another 4 - 7 years.
Rodgers trade value will demand more than Stafford if this thing ends up well and it should too.
I mean take me for example. I was absolutely ready to move on in 2022/2023 for the new era. But after watching what Tom has done the past few years and watching what Rodgers has done the past three years with MLF...I'm definitely seeing the benefits of trying to make it happen of keeping #12 in GB. I know full well we would have to still have a rebuild year in 2022 but if Rodgers and the Packers can agree on something that allows the team to be aggressive and create another window in 23 - 25...I'd be very happy to keep this thing going. And I'd have to think GB is thinking this more and more too.
That alone raises the trade value. The price has to be really, really good for the Packers to want to let him leave.
Thought for today ........ which could change tomorrow: I now think Gutey should start thinking about a 3 way deal to get Tyler Huntley in a Packers uniform. Imagine the possibilities.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 08:42
by Yoop
NCF wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 08:28
Yoop wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 08:26
NCF wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 07:44
I think Taylor can win it. He needs a split QB vote. Say Brady and Rodgers each get equal votes. Next, he needs to do a little more to hit the national radar. Eclipse 2,000 yards, for example. Peterson had a great year in 2012, but rode a hot December to the award. Taylor can't cool off at all. If he stays hot, he just may run away with MVP if voters are not sold on one QB over another.
really, is there any benefit for the GB Packers if Rodgers wins MVP? not imo, it wont raise his compensation value when we trade him, and would improve HIS bargaining power to ask for more money from us should we try and retain him.
IMO he probably deserves the award as much as any other QB, but I've felt other positional players over the years deserved the award just as much as the QB's who won it, Pederson won it 9 years ago, but it has turned into a QB award, the award has become a personal achievement thing versus most valuable team player award, I know a fine line separates the two, but imo the award should go to the player who most helped there team, and obviously that is most often the QB, or a RB, there production is more easily seen, the last time a defensive player won it some of our forum members where a glimmer in there pappy's eye
Lawrence Taylor back in 1986, 35 years ago, 1982 saw the award go to Mark Mosely a Kicker, those type selections imo align more with the meaning of the award, problem is those great defensive players, scorers have to compete with the more glamorous positions like QB. as great a player as Aaron Donald has been, he didn't stand a chance of getting a MVP when up against Mahomes in 2018.
rant over.
Yeah, this isn't even Rodgers best year. He is missing a lot of the volume stats that would put you at the top of these lists, but he is #1 in the NFL in QB Rating and a lot of efficiency measures. The question of "which QB is playing the best football", I think it's Rodgers pretty easily. Just don't think that is what drives the opinions of the majority of voters.
history supports it, Taylor will have to really ball out for a none QB to win it, and Rodgers even though the whole season lacks what the last 5 games have shown is the hot ticket player right now, I think thats what a lot of the voters consider, how well is the player helping his team right now, it's sorta about how you finish the race versus how you started, and Rodgers is really hot right now.
lis, I don't care one way or another if he wins this thing, I'd be fine giving it to the RB, but no one else has meant as much to his team as Rodgers has for us.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 09:02
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 08:32
Yoop wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 08:26
really, is there any benefit for the GB Packers if Rodgers wins MVP? not imo, it wont raise his compensation value when we trade him, and would improve HIS bargaining power to ask for more money from us should we try and retain him.
I'm sorry but if Rodgers wins the SB and wins two MVP's in a row....oh yeah. It's going to make his asking price really, really high. Brady is also helping with that asking price being top 2 or 4 consideration for MVP because it also alludes that Rodgers can do this for another 4 - 7 years.
Rodgers trade value will demand more than Stafford if this thing ends up well and it should too.
I mean take me for example. I was absolutely ready to move on in 2022/2023 for the new era. But after watching what Tom has done the past few years and watching what Rodgers has done the past three years with MLF...I'm definitely seeing the benefits of trying to make it happen of keeping #12 in GB. I know full well we would have to still have a rebuild year in 2022 but if Rodgers and the Packers can agree on something that allows the team to be aggressive and create another window in 23 - 25...I'd be very happy to keep this thing going. And I'd have to think GB is thinking this more and more too.
That alone raises the trade value. The price has to be really, really good for the Packers to want to let him leave.
do you seriously think a GM gives a hoot about these awards, they know how good a player is without a player getting these awards, these awards are FAN candy and player recognition awards they will have minimal measure on the trade market.
Rodgers lack of injury's and ability to still play at a high level is what a GM will consider in length of future contracts, not some idiotic MVP award.
also this thing with Rodgers remaining a Packer is a two way street, both sides have to want it, you've made a strong case for why it shouldn't happen, and I agreed with that, we can't afford everyone, Rodgers knows this, he knows we have very little receiver talent minus Devonte, and Tae wants a big big contract, he also knows there are other big money contracts due other players, point is will we be able to compete at the level Rodgers thinks can compete for a SB? I'd like to keep Rodgers just like you, but it's really up to him mostly.
I was also thinking Indy might be a good trade partner should that be the path out of this.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 09:20
by Pckfn23
Absolutely a GM "gives a hoot" about all these awards. They play a HUGE role in how much a player gets paid or the compensation a GM can get for a player (trade or compensatory pick).
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 09:24
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 09:02
do you seriously think a GM gives a hoot about these awards
Yes. I seriously think a GM gives a big hoot about these awards.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 09:41
by NCF
I actually agree with [mention]Yoop[/mention] on this one. Although, I will caveat that by saying I DO think a GM cares in that these awards can help drive public opinion about a player. In terms of pure player evaluation, though, these awards are 100% useless. I don't even think they help a player in terms of team-player salary negotiations.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 09:47
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 09:24
Yoop wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 09:02
do you seriously think a GM gives a hoot about these awards
Yes. I seriously think a GM gives a big hoot about these awards.
come on, GM's hate these awards, all they do is drive up player cost, lis fan candy for us to brag about and put a players name in the history books, nothing more.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 09:50
by Yoop
NCF wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 09:41
I actually agree with @Yoop on this one. Although, I will caveat that by saying I DO think a GM cares in that these awards can help drive public opinion about a player. In terms of pure player evaluation, though, these awards are 100% useless. I don't even think they help a player in terms of team-player salary negotiations.
zactly, anyone that thinks a GM relies on fan approval for the decisions they make has not paid attention to whats happened here the last few years, if they had there way none of these awards would be given out.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 09:51
by go pak go
NCF wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 09:41
I actually agree with @Yoop on this one. Although, I will caveat that by saying I DO think a GM cares in that these awards can help drive public opinion about a player. In terms of pure player evaluation, though, these awards are 100% useless. I don't even think they help a player in terms of team-player salary negotiations.
They absolutely have value.
If you are arguing whether it makes a big difference whether a player comes in 1st, 2nd or 3rd in voting...I can agree there; the difference is immaterial. But getting the award means you are likely a standard deviation of 2 or 3 anyways which means winning MVP almost assures you are a top 3 or 4 most valuable player in the league.
And yeah I think that's a big deal. Not because of winning the award, but because the player played well enough to be considered for the award. That's my larger point I guess. Rodgers has played well enough in 2021 to be in serious conversation again. That's a huge deal and a huge boost to his player value.
MVP's and All Pro's matter because it's a very exclusive list. You have to be elite to be in them. Pro Bowl's on the other hand don't matter because after alternates are considered and players skipping the PB to let alternates come in, because nearly 40% of the starters have a chance at it anyways and the lesser positions especially require years of solid play before national recognition.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 09:55
by Pckfn23
There are literally escalator clauses in player contracts that pay them more for making the PB, All-Pro, etc... It's a poor GM that wouldn't take those things into consideration.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 09:59
by Pckfn23
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 10:35
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 09:51
If you are arguing whether it makes a big difference whether a player comes in 1st, 2nd or 3rd in voting...I can agree there; the difference is immaterial. But getting the award means you are likely a standard deviation of 2 or 3 anyways which means winning MVP almost assures you are a top 3 or 4 most valuable player in the league.
so then where is the value? if Rodgers wins or simply comes in 2nd or 3rd there is no value difference, it's insane to argue that there is.
same with the argument that qualifiers, or performance escalaters written into contracts, GM's write that stuff in HOPING the player reaches them, they hold that money back as a form of incentive, and insurance in case the player fails to perform to there perceived capability, little different from these season ending awards.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 10:37
by Yoop
as Yoho said, Taylor is his front runner right now, mine to, however his chance to win it is slim.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 10:45
by NCF
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 09:55
There are literally escalator clauses in player contracts that pay them more for making the PB, All-Pro, etc... It's a poor GM that wouldn't take those things into consideration.
Yeah, this is another area where yes, obviously, it matters.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 14:37
by bud fox
NCF wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 10:45
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 09:55
There are literally escalator clauses in player contracts that pay them more for making the PB, All-Pro, etc... It's a poor GM that wouldn't take those things into consideration.
Yeah, this is another area where yes, obviously, it matters.
Ultimately if you are playing well you will get awards so it is a recognition. But if the awards weren't there the GMs would know the value or general order of talent, which I think is more Yoop's point rather than the effect of an award. Some GMs maybe not for those poor teams.
Re: NFL Awards
Posted: 21 Dec 2021 14:51
by Yoop
bud fox wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 14:37
NCF wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 10:45
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021 09:55
There are literally escalator clauses in player contracts that pay them more for making the PB, All-Pro, etc... It's a poor GM that wouldn't take those things into consideration.
Yeah, this is another area where yes, obviously, it matters.
Ultimately if you are playing well you will get awards so it is a recognition. But if the awards weren't there the GMs would know the value or general order of talent, which I think is more Yoop's point rather than the effect of an award. Some GMs maybe not for those poor teams.
fans are 1/3rd of the vote for PB awards, often a player will be voted in mostly because of the prior years production, to think a PB award means a GM will be persuaded to pay more or less for a player depends on more then just that, All Pro and MVP awards are a bit different, they are far more legit awards imo, even then these votes are typically so close a player that barely misses out has imo just about the same value on the market, that was my point.