Packers Huddle

go pak go wrote: ↑

29 Apr 2022 07:49

Yoop wrote: ↑

29 Apr 2022 06:47

go pak go wrote: ↑

28 Apr 2022 22:47

All we need to do is average 3 points a game and this team is going undefeated. So who needs receivers?

well we don't need Rodgers to accomplish that, we should have traded him, more ammo to spend on defense.

Well no. We just are building what Tom Brady has had in New England and Tampa Bay. We have a defense that should take significant pressure off Rodgers. We had it last year. And we may even see improvement this year.

It's just that last January was an anomaly of STs miscues and outlier of really poor offensive production.

I started this thread, and I wholeheartedly support Gute's efforts to construct a legitimate Super Bowl contending defense.

But I take exception to the notion that GB is "building what Tom Brady has had in New England and Tampa Bay" given the current dearth of talent at TE and WR on the Packers roster.

In TB, Brady has been throwing to Cameron Brate, OJ Howard, and Gronk at TE. Godwin, Antonio Brown, and Mike Evans were the top 3 WRs when they won the SB. Tyler Johnson and Scotty Miller both hurt the Pack in the 2020 NFC Championship Game. There is no comparison between the very talented group of Tampa Bay receiving weapons and what Rodgers had to work with in 2020 and 2021 and that was before Adams and MVS departed (yes I know Watkins was added).

Does anyone seriously think Tom would have chosen to join a team featuring Josiah Degaura, Alan Lazard, and Amari Rodgers as projected top receiving threats?

Brady also always had his Gronk and Edelman security blankets when he was winning his most recent SBs in NE. There are no comparable receiving threats on the Pack's current roster.

I am very excited thinking about the Pack's D taking the field in 2022, but that excitement cannot hide what the current TE/WR talent looks like.

Now, back to thinking more pleasant thoughts like adding another Edge or DB or maybe Gutey working some magic to improve the TE or WR positions.

LombardiTime wrote: ↑

29 Apr 2022 09:25

go pak go wrote: ↑

29 Apr 2022 07:49

Yoop wrote: ↑

29 Apr 2022 06:47

well we don't need Rodgers to accomplish that, we should have traded him, more ammo to spend on defense.

Well no. We just are building what Tom Brady has had in New England and Tampa Bay. We have a defense that should take significant pressure off Rodgers. We had it last year. And we may even see improvement this year.

It's just that last January was an anomaly of STs miscues and outlier of really poor offensive production.

I started this thread, and I wholeheartedly support Gute's efforts to construct a legitimate Super Bowl contending defense.

But I take exception to the notion that GB is "building what Tom Brady has had in New England and Tampa Bay" given the current dearth of talent at TE and WR on the Packers roster.

In TB, Brady has been throwing to Cameron Brate, OJ Howard, and Gronk at TE. Godwin, Antonio Brown, and Mike Evans were the top 3 WRs when they won the SB. Tyler Johnson and Scotty Miller both hurt the Pack in the 2020 NFC Championship Game. There is no comparison between the very talented group of Tampa Bay receiving weapons and what Rodgers had to work with in 2020 and 2021 and that was before Adams and MVS departed (yes I know Watkins was added).

Does anyone seriously think Tom would have chosen to join a team featuring Josiah Degaura, Alan Lazard, and Amari Rodgers as projected top receiving threats?

Brady also always had his Gronk and Edelman security blankets when he was winning his most recent SBs in NE. There are no comparable receiving threats on the Pack's current roster.

I am very excited thinking about the Pack's D taking the field in 2022, but that excitement cannot hide what the current TE/WR talent looks like.

Now, back to thinking more pleasant thoughts like adding another Edge or DB or maybe Gutey working some magic to improve the TE or WR positions.

Agreed on the TB WR thing. I do take exception of Johnson and Miller being spotlights because that could totally be our guys. Underrated players who stepped up when needed.

My whole post was much more about Brady winning with the Pre 2007 teams. Those offenses were pretty pedestrian outside of really one WR.

And also, I truly believe that Rodgers can get us a ring if the defense legit holds teams to 17 or less. If 17 or 20 points is the mark, Rodgers and our run game should be able to get that.

Every team has weaknesses. Our old model was, "get to 30". I like our new model of "hold em to 17 or less"

go pak go wrote: ↑

29 Apr 2022 09:31

LombardiTime wrote: ↑

29 Apr 2022 09:25

go pak go wrote: ↑

29 Apr 2022 07:49

Well no. We just are building what Tom Brady has had in New England and Tampa Bay. We have a defense that should take significant pressure off Rodgers. We had it last year. And we may even see improvement this year.

It's just that last January was an anomaly of STs miscues and outlier of really poor offensive production.

I started this thread, and I wholeheartedly support Gute's efforts to construct a legitimate Super Bowl contending defense.

But I take exception to the notion that GB is "building what Tom Brady has had in New England and Tampa Bay" given the current dearth of talent at TE and WR on the Packers roster.

In TB, Brady has been throwing to Cameron Brate, OJ Howard, and Gronk at TE. Godwin, Antonio Brown, and Mike Evans were the top 3 WRs when they won the SB. Tyler Johnson and Scotty Miller both hurt the Pack in the 2020 NFC Championship Game. There is no comparison between the very talented group of Tampa Bay receiving weapons and what Rodgers had to work with in 2020 and 2021 and that was before Adams and MVS departed (yes I know Watkins was added).

Does anyone seriously think Tom would have chosen to join a team featuring Josiah Degaura, Alan Lazard, and Amari Rodgers as projected top receiving threats?

Brady also always had his Gronk and Edelman security blankets when he was winning his most recent SBs in NE. There are no comparable receiving threats on the Pack's current roster.

I am very excited thinking about the Pack's D taking the field in 2022, but that excitement cannot hide what the current TE/WR talent looks like.

Now, back to thinking more pleasant thoughts like adding another Edge or DB or maybe Gutey working some magic to improve the TE or WR positions.

Agreed on the TB WR thing. I do take exception of Johnson and Miller being spotlights because that could totally be our guys. Underrated players who stepped up when needed.

My whole post was much more about Brady winning with the Pre 2007 teams. Those offenses were pretty pedestrian outside of really one WR.

And also, I truly believe that Rodgers can get us a ring if the defense legit holds teams to 17 or less. If 17 or 20 points is the mark, Rodgers and our run game should be able to get that.

Every team has weaknesses. Our old model was, "get to 30". I like our new model of "hold em to 17 or less"

The only thing that worries me about that is that this formula didn't work against SF, but I also understand that we probably win that game 9 out of 10 times and just like Seattle 2014, it took a perfect storm to lose that one. Special Teams blunders aside, if Aaron Jones just runs straight and full speed, we would have been up 14 at halftime.

go pak go wrote: ↑

29 Apr 2022 09:31

LombardiTime wrote: ↑

29 Apr 2022 09:25

go pak go wrote: ↑

29 Apr 2022 07:49

Well no. We just are building what Tom Brady has had in New England and Tampa Bay. We have a defense that should take significant pressure off Rodgers. We had it last year. And we may even see improvement this year.

It's just that last January was an anomaly of STs miscues and outlier of really poor offensive production.

I started this thread, and I wholeheartedly support Gute's efforts to construct a legitimate Super Bowl contending defense.

But I take exception to the notion that GB is "building what Tom Brady has had in New England and Tampa Bay" given the current dearth of talent at TE and WR on the Packers roster.

In TB, Brady has been throwing to Cameron Brate, OJ Howard, and Gronk at TE. Godwin, Antonio Brown, and Mike Evans were the top 3 WRs when they won the SB. Tyler Johnson and Scotty Miller both hurt the Pack in the 2020 NFC Championship Game. There is no comparison between the very talented group of Tampa Bay receiving weapons and what Rodgers had to work with in 2020 and 2021 and that was before Adams and MVS departed (yes I know Watkins was added).

Does anyone seriously think Tom would have chosen to join a team featuring Josiah Degaura, Alan Lazard, and Amari Rodgers as projected top receiving threats?

Brady also always had his Gronk and Edelman security blankets when he was winning his most recent SBs in NE. There are no comparable receiving threats on the Pack's current roster.

I am very excited thinking about the Pack's D taking the field in 2022, but that excitement cannot hide what the current TE/WR talent looks like.

Now, back to thinking more pleasant thoughts like adding another Edge or DB or maybe Gutey working some magic to improve the TE or WR positions.

Agreed on the TB WR thing. I do take exception of Johnson and Miller being spotlights because that could totally be our guys. Underrated players who stepped up when needed.

My whole post was much more about Brady winning with the Pre 2007 teams. Those offenses were pretty pedestrian outside of really one WR.

And also, I truly believe that Rodgers can get us a ring if the defense legit holds teams to 17 or less. If 17 or 20 points is the mark, Rodgers and our run game should be able to get that.

Every team has weaknesses. Our old model was, "get to 30". I like our new model of "hold em to 17 or less"

Got it, fair points, and I likewise prefer the building up of the D.

I'd just really like an explosive WR to take a little pressure off the D -- seems weird being a Packer fan and saying it.

go pak go wrote: ↑

29 Apr 2022 07:49

Yoop wrote: ↑

29 Apr 2022 06:47

go pak go wrote: ↑

28 Apr 2022 22:47

All we need to do is average 3 points a game and this team is going undefeated. So who needs receivers?

well we don't need Rodgers to accomplish that, we should have traded him, more ammo to spend on defense.

Well no. We just are building what Tom Brady has had in New England and Tampa Bay. We have a defense that should take significant pressure off Rodgers. We had it last year. And we may even see improvement this year.

It's just that last January was an anomaly of STs miscues and outlier of really poor offensive production.

I liken what the Packers are doing more to what Denver built for Elway in his final years. A very good defense coupled with an offense that featured a strong running game aided by a QB you absolutely had to respect - and could actually win a game, if needed.

So you want GB to have 1 winning season in 9 years to build a formidable defense and get great WRs and TEs? Because that is exactly what happened in Tampa and why Brady CHOSE them. His NE story was completely different. Edelman was not an elite WR and who else did Brady have in NE? Other than Gronk and 2 years of Moss? NE was a defensive and run the ball mentality until Josh McDaniels started that pick and roll quick pass offense. Brady was the perfect fit for that because he is so good at making decisions pre-snap.

Rodgers has had Driver, Jennings, Nelson, Cobb, Adams for the majority of his time in GB. What he never had was a top 5 defense or a top 15 STs. Now all of a sudden we can't win because Adams is gone but our defense has top 5 potential? I think this will be our best team ever in the Rodgers years.

Hoping Ramsey, Garvin, and or Enagbare can contribute positive snaps at OLB3, though there remain a couple of decent vets on the street who might be the 2022 Mercilus.

I'd like more depth/quality at CB/S.

Other than that I don't see any holes anywhere on the team, OFF or DEF.

packman114 wrote: ↑

30 Apr 2022 09:42

So you want GB to have 1 winning season in 9 years to build a formidable defense and get great WRs and TEs? Because that is exactly what happened in Tampa and why Brady CHOSE them. His NE story was completely different. Edelman was not an elite WR and who else did Brady have in NE? Other than Gronk and 2 years of Moss? NE was a defensive and run the ball mentality until Josh McDaniels started that pick and roll quick pass offense. Brady was the perfect fit for that because he is so good at making decisions pre-snap.

Rodgers has had Driver, Jennings, Nelson, Cobb, Adams for the majority of his time in GB. What he never had was a top 5 defense or a top 15 STs. Now all of a sudden we can't win because Adams is gone but our defense has top 5 potential? I think this will be our best team ever in the Rodgers years.

Could not agree more about the excitement about (and need for) the Pack finally fielding a top Defense and at least adequate STs unit. I agree even more with the idea that NEs perennially top 10 defenses and strong STs were critical to them winning so many SBs.

However, I cannot agree with the notion that some seem to be floating that Brady mostly threw to scrubs while NE was winning its most recent 3 SBs.

First, Gronk was the best TE in the NFL last decade, bar none. I mean he went over 1,000 yards 4 times in the prior decade ffs. Teams needed to account for him every time he played. GB has no receiving weapon like him heading into the 2022 season and it is not even close.

And I love and actively root for Bobby T, but even when healthy he will never be anywhere near as talented as Gronk was and in 2022 Bobby T will be coming off an ACL.

Second, while Edelman never wowed anyone as an elite talent at WR, he went over 1,000 yards 3 times and came close 2 other times (while not playing a full 16 games those seasons). He and Brady obviously clicked like Brady and Wes Welker, Troy Brown, and Deion Branch clicked earlier in Tom's career.

I hope to be proven wrong, but I don't see anything comparable to a Brady-Gronk or a Brady-Edelman combination coming to fruition in the Packers 2020 passing attack.

That said, I think Watson and Doubs pose a deep threat that did not exist before the draft so the receiving group did, at the very least, get incrementally better during the draft.

Now that we drafted three WRs and no DBs, my “add one more veteran” energy is directed at Honey Badger. Do it.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

01 May 2022 12:39

Now that we drafted three WRs and no DBs, my “add one more veteran” energy is directed at Honey Badger. Do it.

Yeah, it is slim pickins on the CB/S FA market. He's probably the best left.

I continue to be more bullish and excited about the 2022 Packer defense than at any time in over a decade, but I want to make sure I am not getting unduly optimistic especially after so many years of watching underwhelming Packer defenses.

I firmly believe that in order to win a SB it is imperative that a team strive to field a top 10 scoring defense and, by my calculations, the last 10 SB winners have featured defenses that finished ranked an average 5.8 overall and never once out of the top 10 when it comes to scoring defense. By comparison, the defenses of the last 10 SB losers finished on average 11th overall and the Packers finished far worse than that on average with their only top 10 scoring defense coming last season (and hence providing reason for optimism it can be even better this season).

I am predicting the Packers D will be a top 7 scoring defense, any reason (besides the obvious injury factor) to think otherwise?

LombardiTime wrote: ↑

07 Aug 2022 17:24

I continue to be more bullish and excited about the 2022 Packer defense than at any time in over a decade, but I want to make sure I am not getting unduly optimistic especially after so many years of watching underwhelming Packer defenses.

I firmly believe that in order to win a SB it is imperative that a team strive to field a top 10 scoring defense and, by my calculations, the last 10 SB winners have featured defenses that finished ranked an average 5.8 overall and never once out of the top 10 when it comes to scoring defense. By comparison, the defenses of the last 10 SB losers finished on average 11th overall and the Packers finished far worse than that on average with their only top 10 scoring defense coming last season (and hence providing reason for optimism it can be even better this season).

I am predicting the Packers D will be a top 7 scoring defense, any reason (besides the obvious injury factor) to think otherwise?

Clark, Gary, Campbell, Douglas and Alexander can all be Pro Bowlers. Maybe not All-Pro, but Pro Bowlers. Historically having 3 play at the Pro Bowl level is good enough to dominate most NFL offenses. I hope this "#1 NFL Defense" isn't going to the coaches and players heads. Writing it and doing it are 2 different things. I hope the D is up to the challenge.

Outside CB: Alexander and Stokes are the best pair in the league. Douglas is the best backup in the league

Slot CB: Douglas is the best in the league. If he gets hurt or he has to move outside, there are multiple options including playing more two-ILB's and 3 down linemen.

Outside LB: Gary and Smith are the best pair in the league. Depth is questionable

Inside LB: Campbell is great. Quay is a rookie but will start. This is potentially a very strong position

Dline is potentially great also. Clark is the best big Dlineman in the league. Lowry is coming off a career year and is above average. Wyatt probably will start and has great potential but is still a rookie. TJ is probably going to be a capable backup. Somebody else will be OK as a rotational player but I doubt it will be Reed (3.5 sacks for all his snaps last season sucks).

If Gary, Smith, Alexander, Stokes, Douglas, Campbell and Clark stay reasonably healthy, this is a top 5 D in the league. If Quay and Wyatt also have a good year, this is the #1 D. How many teams have 7 legitimate all pro candidates? I won't say pro bowl because I don't think any Packers will be playing in the Pro Bowl unless the O sucks.

This def should compete to be the best. It has had an incredible amount of investment in it.

Amos - FA
Savage - first round
Jaire - First
Stokes - First
Douglas - FA
Campbell - FA
Walker - First
Gary - First
Preston - FA
Clark - First
Wyatt - First

Interesting to look at and see how important first round picks are from a talent perspective. No drafted packer was less than a first rounder in that starting group. Also why I never support the trade down mentality.

This D has a good chance to be the best since I started following the Packers (1997).

If we manage to get the rookies up to speed fast, this could be a starting D without a weakness. And that's whether in base or in nickel. As usual, we could use a pleasant surprise or few, but while I usually try to avoid lofty expectations, this year I'm very giddy.

bud fox wrote: ↑

08 Aug 2022 04:08

This def should compete to be the best. It has had an incredible amount of investment in it.

Amos - FA
Savage - first round
Jaire - First
Stokes - First
Douglas - FA
Campbell - FA
Walker - First
Gary - First
Preston - FA
Clark - First
Wyatt - First

Interesting to look at and see how important first round picks are from a talent perspective. No drafted packer was less than a first rounder in that starting group. Also why I never support the trade down mentality.

It took over a decade to accomplish this, and if we are lucky it'll stay a top 10 defense for 5 years, if you don't have top end talent at all 11 positions, with some quality reserves it probably wont, but does it have to be? only if ya have a really crappy offense, our problems over the years is that our defense usually hovered in the high teens, the ST's units hovered in the high 20's, and we had ONE formidable WR, if you guys can't see the imbalance here, forget the optometrist, what ya need is a frontal lobotomy

seriously though, I think a better balance between all 3 squads is the ticket, mistakes imho is our reason for losses in the big games, we to often simply beat ourselves

bud fox wrote: ↑

08 Aug 2022 04:08

This def should compete to be the best. It has had an incredible amount of investment in it.

Amos - FA
Savage - first round
Jaire - First
Stokes - First
Douglas - FA
Campbell - FA
Walker - First
Gary - First
Preston - FA
Clark - First
Wyatt - First

Interesting to look at and see how important first round picks are from a talent perspective. No drafted packer was less than a first rounder in that starting group. Also why I never support the trade down mentality.

We always draft defense early. It has been the Packers goal to have a great defense.

It's just we are now finally hitting on our draft picks and got lucky with FA signings. (namely Z, Amos, Preston, Douglas and Campbell)

It's not that the Packers haven't "done this before" but it's more that they are actually hitting. So correlation of "valuing" a position like you are trying to do doesn't make sense because they are doing the same they've always done for the exception that they are better at doing it in the Gute era.

go pak go wrote: ↑

08 Aug 2022 08:54

bud fox wrote: ↑

08 Aug 2022 04:08

This def should compete to be the best. It has had an incredible amount of investment in it.

Amos - FA
Savage - first round
Jaire - First
Stokes - First
Douglas - FA
Campbell - FA
Walker - First
Gary - First
Preston - FA
Clark - First
Wyatt - First

Interesting to look at and see how important first round picks are from a talent perspective. No drafted packer was less than a first rounder in that starting group. Also why I never support the trade down mentality.

We always draft defense early. It has been the Packers goal to have a great defense.

It's just we are now finally hitting on our draft picks and got lucky with FA signings. (namely Z, Amos, Preston, Douglas and Campbell)

It's not that the Packers haven't "done this before" but it's more that they are actually hitting. So correlation of "valuing" a position like you are trying to do doesn't make sense because they are doing the same they've always done for the exception that they are better at doing it in the Gute era.

right, and we'll have to continue this UFA process or likely we'll decline, it's not so much that Ted missed on high defensive draft picks, it's more then just that, he refused to play the high stakes gamble of using UFA too, I actually think his hit to miss rate was about average when ya take into consideration the slots those players where chosen with, typically above slot 25, which is in affect 2nd and 3rd tier players, the closest Ted got to top 10 slot was Raji in 09.

It's easier to keep the nucleus of a offense together, all ya need is a average to good OL, A very good QB, and a few above average receivers and you'll win a lot of games, as we where able to do, Gute has done a great job elevating the talent on defense, no doubt about that, but it will take more craftiness to retain it.

Yoop wrote: ↑

08 Aug 2022 09:18

go pak go wrote: ↑

08 Aug 2022 08:54

bud fox wrote: ↑

08 Aug 2022 04:08

This def should compete to be the best. It has had an incredible amount of investment in it.

Amos - FA
Savage - first round
Jaire - First
Stokes - First
Douglas - FA
Campbell - FA
Walker - First
Gary - First
Preston - FA
Clark - First
Wyatt - First

Interesting to look at and see how important first round picks are from a talent perspective. No drafted packer was less than a first rounder in that starting group. Also why I never support the trade down mentality.

We always draft defense early. It has been the Packers goal to have a great defense.

It's just we are now finally hitting on our draft picks and got lucky with FA signings. (namely Z, Amos, Preston, Douglas and Campbell)

It's not that the Packers haven't "done this before" but it's more that they are actually hitting. So correlation of "valuing" a position like you are trying to do doesn't make sense because they are doing the same they've always done for the exception that they are better at doing it in the Gute era.

right, and we'll have to continue this UFA process or likely we'll decline, it's not so much that Ted missed on high defensive draft picks, it's more then just that, he refused to play the high stakes gamble of using UFA too, I actually think his hit to miss rate was about average when ya take into consideration the slots those players where chosen with, typically above slot 25, which is in affect 2nd and 3rd tier players, the closest Ted got to top 10 slot was Raji in 09.

Ted hit in 2009 with his two 1st rounders. But his drafting on defense after that (in the top 3 rounds) was pretty poor. I would say it was below average.

Here are Ted's top 3 round defensive draft picks 2011 and beyond.

Good Players: Perry, Heyward, Clark, Fackrell - good players drafted. Just didn't properly resign or resigned for too much money and injuries affected them.

Bad Players: Worthy, Datone Jones, Clinton Dix, Thornton, Randall, Rollins, King, Jones, M. Adams - I would classify as bad players. Clinton Dix maybe could be put above but he failed everyhwere he went.

That is 13 players picked in this time. 4 hits and 9 misses. 31% hit rate. And only one was a GREAT pick. Only two players total were resigned after the rookie deal.

That's really poor drafting.

Absolutely Ted didn't take advantage of bringing in UFA's when available, but his foundational error was poor drafting and development on the defensive side of the ball.