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Re: McGinn's WR draft rankings - None worth first 2 rounds!?
Posted: 02 Apr 2022 06:34
by salmar80
Yoop wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 06:27
salmar80 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 06:22
Yoop wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 05:17
I fall for some outlandish thing every April 1, Just Jeff would get me every year.
Trying to keep JustJeff's thing going... He got us good a few times.
Real McGinn hasn't done his WR piece yet. For the "WR analysis", I just copy-pasted all the negative off NFL.com's evaluations (except for Jameson, that one I made up) without any of the positives. If you omit the positives, everyone looks like a 3rd rounder at best.
I looked right past the April fools heading
you got me good Salmar
It had a different heading yesterday, "McGinn's draft WR rankings. Not one worth first 2 rounds!?" (or something like that). I like to mark the joke threads as April Fools after everyone's seen it to avoid confusion later.
Re: McGinn's WR draft rankings - None worth first 2 rounds!?
Posted: 02 Apr 2022 07:18
by RingoCStarrQB
salmar80 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 06:34
Yoop wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 06:27
salmar80 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 06:22
Trying to keep JustJeff's thing going... He got us good a few times.
Real McGinn hasn't done his WR piece yet. For the "WR analysis", I just copy-pasted all the negative off NFL.com's evaluations (except for Jameson, that one I made up) without any of the positives. If you omit the positives, everyone looks like a 3rd rounder at best.
I looked right past the April fools heading
you got me good Salmar
It had a different heading yesterday, "McGinn's draft WR rankings. Not one worth first 2 rounds!?" (or something like that). I like to mark the joke threads as April Fools after everyone's seen it to avoid confusion later.
April Fools for not ............. I still want to know where did the Packers rank in missing wide open receivers in key down and distance situations?
Re: McGinn's WR draft rankings - None worth first 2 rounds!?
Posted: 02 Apr 2022 07:20
by Yoop
salmar80 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 06:34
Yoop wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 06:27
salmar80 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 06:22
Trying to keep JustJeff's thing going... He got us good a few times.
Real McGinn hasn't done his WR piece yet. For the "WR analysis", I just copy-pasted all the negative off NFL.com's evaluations (except for Jameson, that one I made up) without any of the positives. If you omit the positives, everyone looks like a 3rd rounder at best.
I looked right past the April fools heading
you got me good Salmar
It had a different heading yesterday, "McGinn's draft WR rankings. Not one worth first 2 rounds!?" (or something like that). I like to mark the joke threads as April Fools after everyone's seen it to avoid confusion later.
just look at this from espn, Wilson London and Olave gone top 11, we get Jahan Dotson ( a marvin Harrison type player) and at #28 Zion Johnson a walk on starter at G/T, Burks lasted till slot 26 so we could even trade up for him, imo those two could replace the 1400 yrds we lost trading Adams.
point is I expect this mock is probably pretty close, 5 to 6 receivers off the board round one.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2022/stor ... nenbaum-gm
Re: April fools: "McGinn's" brutal WR draft rankings
Posted: 02 Apr 2022 07:43
by NCF
Re: McGinn's WR draft rankings - None worth first 2 rounds!?
Posted: 02 Apr 2022 08:26
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 06:00
go pak go wrote: ↑01 Apr 2022 08:46
This year I've been underwhelmed by the DTs and WRs. I haven't looked at CB much. I love Kyler Gordon late Day 2 for us but I bet he goes way earlier than I would like.
seriously now, don't you think the abundance of quality OL and edge rushers over whelms your eval of the WR's along with 3 safety in the top 30 ?
again I will go back to the big boards, Edge and OL top Jeremiah's top 50 with 9 each, wr 8, lber 5, cb 5, dt 5, safety 4 qb 4 and rb 2
without looking edge and OL seem higher then usual, as well as WR
Let's look at them.
Wilson - Will be a top 10 pick. But we need speed and this is Jeremiah's own words:
He doesn't have elite speed
So that is not worth a top 10 pick for us.
Drake London - Big. Injured. Didn't test. And all we complain about is we have big, slow guys who can't seperate. So why would I be excited to spend a premium on another one? Again, Jeremiah's own words:
He doesn't have ideal speed
Chris Olave - I could get behind this pick. He won't be a #1, but he will be a playmaker. I do worry about size, but I love his athleticism. Which is why I have said I would be happy with him. But he won't help with run blocking.
Jameson Williams - He's my favorite. But he tore his ACL in mid January. So if we want immediate impact, he won't be it. There is a little investment required here.
Treylon Burks - I too like Burks. I think he has the potential to be a true #1. I read he didn't have too much developed route trees which concerns me a bit, but you will notice Burks is almost always in my mock drafts. He's probably my favorite with Williams having the injury
Jahan Dotson - No. I know testing isn't everything, but he and David Bell both have poor testing numbers. When you are small, you have to be freaking fast. So he is a no.
Christian Watson - This dude has what we want. But he is absolutely an investment. I love this guy. I bet he goes early 2nd/last 1st. Too high for us again if we want immediate impact.
Re: McGinn's WR draft rankings - None worth first 2 rounds!?
Posted: 02 Apr 2022 08:42
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 08:26
Yoop wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 06:00
go pak go wrote: ↑01 Apr 2022 08:46
This year I've been underwhelmed by the DTs and WRs. I haven't looked at CB much. I love Kyler Gordon late Day 2 for us but I bet he goes way earlier than I would like.
seriously now, don't you think the abundance of quality OL and edge rushers over whelms your eval of the WR's along with 3 safety in the top 30 ?
again I will go back to the big boards, Edge and OL top Jeremiah's top 50 with 9 each, wr 8, lber 5, cb 5, dt 5, safety 4 qb 4 and rb 2
without looking edge and OL seem higher then usual, as well as WR
Let's look at them.
Wilson - Will be a top 10 pick. But we need speed and this is Jeremiah's own words:
He doesn't have elite speed
So that is not worth a top 10 pick for us.
Drake London - Big. Injured. Didn't test. And all we complain about is we have big, slow guys who can't seperate. So why would I be excited to spend a premium on another one? Again, Jeremiah's own words:
He doesn't have ideal speed
Chris Olave - I could get behind this pick. He won't be a #1, but he will be a playmaker. I do worry about size, but I love his athleticism. Which is why I have said I would be happy with him. But he won't help with run blocking.
Jameson Williams - He's my favorite. But he tore his ACL in mid January. So if we want immediate impact, he won't be it. There is a little investment required here.
Treylon Burks - I too like Burks. I think he has the potential to be a true #1. I read he didn't have too much developed route trees which concerns me a bit, but you will notice Burks is almost always in my mock drafts. He's probably my favorite with Williams having the injury
Jahan Dotson - No. I know testing isn't everything, but he and David Bell both have poor testing numbers. When you are small, you have to be freaking fast. So he is a no.
Christian Watson - This dude has what we want. But he is absolutely an investment. I love this guy. I bet he goes early 2nd/last 1st. Too high for us again if we want immediate impact.
MVS is the closest thing to elite speed we've had at WR in years, none of our best had it, so elite speed has never been my main criteria for picking a wide out, sure we can use it, obviously a guy with it will attract deep safety help, but what we really need is quick footed players that can separate fast, we have been evolving into a short yardage passing team that is relying more on yac yards, London has never been a player I coveted, but hurt or not he offers what a lot of GM's want, so he'll go high, Olave does everything to well to last, same with Wilson and Williams, and with Burks you can build a offense around that player, every one of these guys has a nitch that teams need at the skill position, including Dotson, who actually is fast, in fact he looks even faster then the 4.43 time, and only dropped two balls last season, your all freaked out over size, kids got hands, and that sells GM's too.
Re: April fools: "McGinn's" brutal WR draft rankings
Posted: 02 Apr 2022 09:10
by go pak go
I don't care about other GM's yoop.
I care about our situation. Your list you provided agrees with me. Everyone has caveats.
London - not a good fit if we want a guy who can separate.
Williams - torn ACL. We want immediate impact. Williams won't have any chemistry developed with Rodgers
Olave - we both agree he is athletic. I said I wouldn't mind picking him - but he isn't a #1. He is a shorter, quicker and smaller MVS
Wilson - he will go top 10 most likely. Out of our range.
Datson - When you are below 180 pounds, you have to have elite speed. You just have to. Datson is absolutely not the type of WR that the Packers covet.
At the end of the day, gun to my head, I would like Olave or Burks with our first rounder. But I'm not near as excited as I was about Jefferson. My message has been consistent on that.
Re: April fools: "McGinn's" brutal WR draft rankings
Posted: 02 Apr 2022 09:27
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 09:10
I don't care about other GM's yoop.
I care about our situation. Your list you provided agrees with me. Everyone has caveats.
London - not a good fit if we want a guy who can separate.
Williams - torn ACL. We want immediate impact. Williams won't have any chemistry developed with Rodgers
Olave - we both agree he is athletic. I said I wouldn't mind picking him - but he isn't a #1. He is a shorter, quicker and smaller MVS
Wilson - he will go top 10 most likely. Out of our range.
Datson - When you are below 180 pounds, you have to have elite speed. You just have to. Datson is absolutely not the type of WR that the Packers covet.
At the end of the day, gun to my head, I would like Olave or Burks with our first rounder. But I'm not near as excited as I was about Jefferson. My message has been consistent on that.
I know who you like for us, I know you don't care what GM's think, or draft boards, or anything else, your mind is made up, I got that, but 5. 101/2 and basically 180 lbs and 4.4 speed from a receiver who barely ever drops anything thrown to him would excel with Rodgers, and like you, none of these guys has me as excited as I was to get Jefferson, it's why I was willing to sell the farm to get him, you watch though, if Dotson gets with the right team he's a 1000 yrd receiver.
Re: April fools: "McGinn's" brutal WR draft rankings
Posted: 02 Apr 2022 11:43
by Crazylegs Starks
salmar80 wrote: ↑01 Apr 2022 05:20
Jeez! I knew Bob McGinn was a harsh grader, but his 2022 draft WR prospect rankings are naaaasty!!!!
SNIP
Darn you salmar!
I never follow the lead-up to the draft that close, so I skimmed your post yesterday and I totally bought it.
[mention]Yoop[/mention] don't feel bad, bro!
Re: McGinn's WR draft rankings - None worth first 2 rounds!?
Posted: 02 Apr 2022 20:59
by YoHoChecko
Yoop wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 08:42
MVS is the closest thing to elite speed we've had at WR in years, none of our best had it, so elite speed has never been my main criteria for picking a wide out, sure we can use it, obviously a guy with it will attract deep safety help, but what we really need is quick footed players that can separate fast, we have been evolving into a short yardage passing team that is relying more on yac yards, London has never been a player I coveted, but hurt or not he offers what a lot of GM's want, so he'll go high, Olave does everything to well to last, same with Wilson and Williams, and with Burks you can build a offense around that player, every one of these guys has a nitch that teams need at the skill position, including Dotson, who actually is fast, in fact he looks even faster then the 4.43 time, and only dropped two balls last season, your all freaked out over size, kids got hands, and that sells GM's too.
I mean, I totally agree that an elite WR doesn't need to have elite speed. But the situation for the Packers is that we need both a guy who can develop into an elite WR1 and a guy with elite speed to replace MVS.
So there's a natural tendency to look for guys who might have both. That way if our prospective WR1 with elite speed doesn't pan out as a #1, he at least fills the "speed threat" role. That's why Jameson Williams and Christian Watson are popular on the board. They can wash out as Davante replacement and still fill a role as an MVS replacement.
Guys who have neither elite speed nor a track record of immediate separation and #1 WR measurables are basically competing to be our #2 without hope of filling the MVS role or the Adams role, and thus have limited appeal to us.
Re: April fools: "McGinn's" brutal WR draft rankings
Posted: 03 Apr 2022 07:08
by TheSkeptic
In my view the Packers have 2 competent receivers. Only 2. One is a WR#2 (Lazard) and the other is a TE (Tonyan). They do not have any competent slot receivers because to be a competent slot you need quickness or speed or size and neither Cobb nor Rodgers had any of these 3 attributes last season.
So who can play WR#1?
Not Lazard, he is a WR#2. He does not have the necessary speed or quickness, he is a possession receiver and a great blocker.
Not Chris Blair. He has the necessary size but there are no official numbers on him and the knock on him is that he is slow.
Not Rico Gafford, he is a converted DB. He has the speed but he is 5'10" 184. Too small and he would not have been playing DB in college if he had good hands.
Not Juwann Winfree. Good size but lets just say that a 4.53 on your pro day is not inspiring.
And that leaves Malik Taylor. 6'1 3/8 tall and 211 pounds at his pro day. Ran a 4.46 twice and had a 6.81 3-cone. This will be his 3rd year in the league but in 2 seasons he has 80 yards and 1 TD. To be fair, he has only been targeted 9 times in 2 seasons but he caught 7 of them. If I remember correctly, his completions last season came from Love, not Rodgers.
Who can play the slot?
Taylor and Winfree
The other option is to go with 2 TE's.
Who can play receiving TE?
Only Tonyan. All the others are too slow, can't catch or not big enough
I do NOT approve of giving up either of those 2nd round picks to move up. And without moving up, there is not likely to be any WR that justifies the #22 or the #28 pick. My opinion is to trade down from one of those #1 picks and use the other as BPA for anything except an Olineman with the other. Take Burks in the 34-44 range and make him your slot receiver and move him outside on possession situations with 2 TE's. Start Taylor at WR#1 and force Rodgers to throw to him, we could be pleasantly surprised.
Re: April fools: "McGinn's" brutal WR draft rankings
Posted: 03 Apr 2022 07:25
by RingoCStarrQB
TheSkeptic wrote: ↑03 Apr 2022 07:08
In my view the Packers have 2 competent receivers. Only 2. One is a WR#2 (Lazard) and the other is a TE (Tonyan). They do not have any competent slot receivers because to be a competent slot you need quickness or speed or size and neither Cobb nor Rodgers had any of these 3 attributes last season.
So who can play WR#1?
Not Lazard, he is a WR#2. He does not have the necessary speed or quickness, he is a possession receiver and a great blocker.
Not Chris Blair. He has the necessary size but there are no official numbers on him and the knock on him is that he is slow.
Not Rico Gafford, he is a converted DB. He has the speed but he is 5'10" 184. Too small and he would not have been playing DB in college if he had good hands.
Not Juwann Winfree. Good size but lets just say that a 4.53 on your pro day is not inspiring.
And that leaves Malik Taylor. 6'1 3/8 tall and 211 pounds at his pro day. Ran a 4.46 twice and had a 6.81 3-cone. This will be his 3rd year in the league but in 2 seasons he has 80 yards and 1 TD. To be fair, he has only been targeted 9 times in 2 seasons but he caught 7 of them. If I remember correctly, his completions last season came from Love, not Rodgers.
Who can play the slot?
Taylor and Winfree
The other option is to go with 2 TE's.
Who can play receiving TE?
Only Tonyan. All the others are too slow, can't catch or not big enough
I do NOT approve of giving up either of those 2nd round picks to move up. And without moving up, there is not likely to be any WR that justifies the #22 or the #28 pick. My opinion is to trade down from one of those #1 picks and use the other as BPA for anything except an Olineman with the other. Take Burks in the 34-44 range and make him your slot receiver and move him outside on possession situations with 2 TE's. Start Taylor at WR#1 and force Rodgers to throw to him, we could be pleasantly surprised.
There once was a day when the starting Packers WRs were Jon Staggers and Barry Smith. With the up and coming new guy being Steve Odom. Those days were tough times ........... don't want to go there again. Malik Taylor and Amari Rodgers really really need to step their games up.
See photo below from the Packers - Saints game in 1973 held at Milwaukee County Stadium. Who Dat? #22 is Staggers, #80 is Smith, #17 is Tagge. Smith was a first round pick (21st overall) ........ another Devine cluster entity. Packers went 5-7-2 in 1973.
GO PACK GO!
Re: McGinn's WR draft rankings - None worth first 2 rounds!?
Posted: 03 Apr 2022 07:58
by Yoop
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 20:59
Yoop wrote: ↑02 Apr 2022 08:42
MVS is the closest thing to elite speed we've had at WR in years, none of our best had it, so elite speed has never been my main criteria for picking a wide out, sure we can use it, obviously a guy with it will attract deep safety help, but what we really need is quick footed players that can separate fast, we have been evolving into a short yardage passing team that is relying more on yac yards, London has never been a player I coveted, but hurt or not he offers what a lot of GM's want, so he'll go high, Olave does everything to well to last, same with Wilson and Williams, and with Burks you can build a offense around that player, every one of these guys has a nitch that teams need at the skill position, including Dotson, who actually is fast, in fact he looks even faster then the 4.43 time, and only dropped two balls last season, your all freaked out over size, kids got hands, and that sells GM's too.
I mean, I totally agree that an elite WR doesn't need to have elite speed. But the situation for the Packers is that we need both a guy who can develop into an elite WR1 and a guy with elite speed to replace MVS.
So there's a natural tendency to look for guys who might have both. That way if our prospective WR1 with elite speed doesn't pan out as a #1, he at least fills the "speed threat" role. That's why Jameson Williams and Christian Watson are popular on the board. They can wash out as Davante replacement and still fill a role as an MVS replacement.
Guys who have neither elite speed nor a track record of immediate separation and #1 WR measurables are basically competing to be our #2 without hope of filling the MVS role or the Adams role, and thus have limited appeal to us.
thing is guys with both quality tech ( ready to play) and speed are premium, a guy like Watson ( raw) will take some coaching, but he's more physically gifted imo then MVS and should be more of a contributor quicker, might be a bit of a reach at slot 28, but doubt he last much longer then that
I want the most ready to play with slot #22, Burks, Olave Wilson and probably LOndon seem the best suited to fill that need, to me speed comes second with this pick, scheme fit and expected production in it is the most important thing to me, if separation ability is of the main concern then Olave is probably the guy, smooth route runner, great hands, walk on ready to play.
Re: April fools: "McGinn's" brutal WR draft rankings
Posted: 03 Apr 2022 09:19
by go pak go
I think your "immediate" contributors are most likely going to be Wilson, Olave and London. These guys have the physical gifts and are good route runners.
I wouldn't put Burks in that "immediate" contributor. I would put him more with Watson as a physical freak but he too has run very limited route trees and his scouting report says he doesn't really try as hard when he isn't the focal point of the play.
Re: April fools: "McGinn's" brutal WR draft rankings
Posted: 03 Apr 2022 12:55
by TheSkeptic
go pak go wrote: ↑03 Apr 2022 09:19
I think your "immediate" contributors are most likely going to be Wilson, Olave and London. These guys have the physical gifts and are good route runners.
I wouldn't put Burks in that "immediate" contributor. I would put him more with Watson as a physical freak but he too has run very limited route trees and his scouting report says he doesn't really try as hard when he isn't the focal point of the play.
I think Burks is too heavy to play WR#1. He needs to drop 10 pounds. Right now he is built more like a RB and he got gassed like a RB that has to play every snap. So he took plays off.
Re: McGinn's WR draft rankings - None worth first 2 rounds!?
Posted: 03 Apr 2022 14:40
by YoHoChecko
Yoop wrote: ↑03 Apr 2022 07:58
thing is guys with both quality tech ( ready to play) and speed are premium, a guy like Watson ( raw) will take some coaching, but he's more physically gifted imo then MVS and should be more of a contributor quicker, might be a bit of a reach at slot 28, but doubt he last much longer then that
I want the most ready to play with slot #22, Burks, Olave Wilson and probably LOndon seem the best suited to fill that need, to me speed comes second with this pick, scheme fit and expected production in it is the most important thing to me, if separation ability is of the main concern then Olave is probably the guy, smooth route runner, great hands, walk on ready to play.
I think you're making our point here--which is that while the WR class has a ton of depth and different options, to fill the needs we have at the position, there are startlingly few who seem to fit the bill and who will be available past 15, so there seems to be a lot more selectivity going on.
I even think we're being generous here in who can immediately contribute, depending on what we mean by that. I see Olave as having a Calvin Ridley-esque impact; an immediate #2 who can put up 800 yards as a rookie. That's a contributor. But Olave probably can't be the #1 option as a rookie, and given that we don't have one of those right now, you have to think hard about how to put these guys in position to succeed.
I don't even think London will be that immediate. Most bigger guys take some time. Look at some rookie stats here:
Allen Robinson: 48 rec, 548 yds, 2 TDs
Michael Pittman: 40, 503, 1
Brandon Marshall: 20, 309, 2
Maybe London is more Mike Evans (68, 1051, 12) than he is Michael Pittman or Brandon Marshall or Allen Robinson, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that.
Even though I'm currently very much on the Burks/Watson train, the reason I also like the Jameson Williams/Watson combo is because I think both have the skillset to become WR1s in time, but also they have the speed such that if they fail to develop into elite top weapons, they're "failure" leaves us with an upgrade to MVS on the roster. Olave, to an extent, works because he would fill the #2 role and also has deep speed. I just don't see the #1 potential for him, so he excited me less.
Look, I'm rambling, but the point is that this class has a lot more "will excel with the right fit" guys or "will develop in time" guys than it has "will excel in any system and be a #1 target in the NFL" guys. So it's a little bittersweet for us.
Re: McGinn's WR draft rankings - None worth first 2 rounds!?
Posted: 03 Apr 2022 15:07
by NCF
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑03 Apr 2022 14:40
I don't even think London will be that immediate.
Personally, I think London's impact will be all the way short of immediate... as in never. Just not a big fan of his.