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Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 04:13
by BF004
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 06:13
by APB
Yoop brings up this "we passed on Justin Jefferson" nonsense every time things get a little boring around here and, sure as the sunrise, he gets a bite every time.
We all know it's nonsense. Hell, I think even Yoop, through his THC induced mental haze, knows it's nonsense. It does, however, provide some momentary fireworks once or twice a year though. I'll give him that.
At least this time around we were able to tie the totally unrelated and different year drafting of Darnell Savage into the debate as a means to prove...what, exactly, I'm still not sure of. That was new.
But hey, it's another
moment. I'll take it during a bye week...
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 06:26
by Labrev
You guys are focusing on the wrong part of my argument.
Even if you can convince me WR was a need equal to S between those years, the bigger issue is our draft capital in the year we traded up for Savage, coming off a 7-9 season and having an early pick from NO, was way more valuable (and thus made for better trade ammo) than it was coming off of a NFCCG season.
We were picking 12th in each round when we moved up for Savage and had an extra pick courtesy NO. We were picking 30th—more than half a round later— in the draft where Jefferson went.
Nobody wants &%$@ end-of-round picks unless they themselves are picking very late.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 07:52
by Yoop
we went without quality safety's for most of your life Labrev,
and if your draft capitol is slot 30 in every round ya just offer a 2nd instead of a 3rd, if ya want talent then ya pay what it takes to get it, such as the signing of the 2 Smiths.
we went 8 years without bringing in a highly rated receiver, why anyone would condone that is mind boggling, again we blame our play off losses on defense or ST's, rightfully so, but simply putting more points on the score board would have worked too.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 08:32
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 07:52
we went without quality safety's for most of your life Labrev,
and if your draft capitol is slot 30 in every round ya just offer a 2nd instead of a 3rd, if ya want talent then ya pay what it takes to get it, such as the signing of the 2 Smiths.
we went 8 years without bringing in a highly rated receiver, why anyone would condone that is mind boggling, again we blame our play off losses on defense or ST's, rightfully so, but simply putting more points on the score board would have worked too.
Shoulda got Olave.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 08:33
by Labrev
Yoop wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 07:52
we went without quality safety's for most of your life Labrev,
and if your draft capitol is slot 30 in every round ya just offer a 2nd instead of a 3rd, if ya want talent then ya pay what it takes to get it, such as the signing of the 2 Smiths.
When you pick 30 every round, your 2nd is not a 2nd; it's a 3rd.
More than that, teams want to draft 1 Justin Jefferson way more than they want to draft AJ Dillon and/or Josiah Deguara together. The idea that "ya just offer a 2nd" and/or 3rd and trading up is a done deal.... vastly underestimates the interest of these teams in securing top talent, especially when offered 2nd round picks that are much closer to Round 3 than even mid-Round 2 (16).
We would have needed to give up way more than we did for Savage to coax Minny to trade with their main rival or to jump them, which not only defeats the purpose of getting a star player (great players can only cover so many holes on your team), but if you REALLY just had to have a WR... you can probably get Brandon Ayuik for half what it would have taken to get JJ.
Justin Jefferson is a great player but football is still a team sport at the end of the day. He's good, but not "half a Ricky Williams trade"-good.
we went 8 years without bringing in a highly rated receiver, why anyone would condone that is mind boggling, again we blame our play off losses on defense or ST's, rightfully so, but simply putting more points on the score board would have worked too.
Why anyone would shrug off the lack of quality safeties after suffering years of MD Jennings, Jerron McMillan, and countless other randos,, especially after seeing what a Nick Collins can do for a D, boggles my mind even more.
You could win with what we had at WR: an elite and no liabilities; Rodgers had 2 MVP seasons with that O.
You could not win with what we had at S before Savage: a solid vet and massive liabilities. Savage sucks now but he was solid Years 1-3 and more importantly not a liability.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 09:13
by Pugger
go pak go wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 08:32
Yoop wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 07:52
we went without quality safety's for most of your life Labrev,
and if your draft capitol is slot 30 in every round ya just offer a 2nd instead of a 3rd, if ya want talent then ya pay what it takes to get it, such as the signing of the 2 Smiths.
we went 8 years without bringing in a highly rated receiver, why anyone would condone that is mind boggling, again we blame our play off losses on defense or ST's, rightfully so, but simply putting more points on the score board would have worked too.
Shoulda got Olave.
I suspect in the end we got the better WR in Watson.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 09:40
by Yoop
Labrev wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 08:33
Yoop wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 07:52
we went without quality safety's for most of your life Labrev,
and if your draft capitol is slot 30 in every round ya just offer a 2nd instead of a 3rd, if ya want talent then ya pay what it takes to get it, such as the signing of the 2 Smiths.
When you pick 30 every round, your 2nd is not a 2nd; it's a 3rd.
More than that, teams want to draft 1 Justin Jefferson way more than they want to draft AJ Dillon and/or Josiah Deguara together. The idea that "ya just offer a 2nd" and/or 3rd and trading up is a done deal.... vastly underestimates the interest of these teams in securing top talent, especially when offered 2nd round picks that are much closer to Round 3 than even mid-Round 2 (16).
We would have needed to give up way more than we did for Savage to coax Minny to trade with their main rival or to jump them, which not only defeats the purpose of getting a star player (great players can only cover so many holes on your team), but if you REALLY just had to have a WR... you can probably get Brandon Ayuik for half what it would have taken to get JJ.
Justin Jefferson is a great player but football is still a team sport at the end of the day. He's good, but not "half a Ricky Williams trade"-good.
we went 8 years without bringing in a highly rated receiver, why anyone would condone that is mind boggling, again we blame our play off losses on defense or ST's, rightfully so, but simply putting more points on the score board would have worked too.
Why anyone would shrug off the lack of quality safeties after suffering years of MD Jennings, Jerron McMillan, and countless other randos,, especially after seeing what a Nick Collins can do for a D, boggles my mind even more.
You could win with what we had at WR: an elite and no liabilities; Rodgers had 2 MVP seasons with that O.
You could not win with what we had at S before Savage: a solid vet and massive liabilities. Savage sucks now but he was solid Years 1-3 and more importantly not a liability.
your really spreading the horse manure to defend this idiotic crap Labrev, it wasn't any harder in fact not even half as hard for us to jump Minny and take Jefferson as it was for the Saints to trade up for Olave, and he has close to the 1000 yrds for them as a rookie, the Saints committed to a player and did what it took to get him, just as Guty did to get Savage and this year to get Watson, Guty wouldn't do so for Jefferson or Ayuik because he wasn't committed to improving the WR position as much as he was in finding Rodgers replacement.
11. Combining the team's predraft and draft-day trades, the Saints essentially gave up five picks to select Olave: two 2022 third-rounders, a 2022 fourth-rounder, a 2023 first-rounder, and a 2024 second-rounder. That's an absurd amount of draft capital for a team to surrender for any one player.
we wouldn't have had to give up near that to move below slot 22.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 10:22
by Drj820
Why does every receiver look faster as soon as they leave GB lol
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 10:42
by Labrev
Yoop wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 09:40
your really spreading the horse manure to defend this idiotic crap Labrev, it wasn't any harder in fact not even half as hard for us to jump Minny and take Jefferson as it was for the Saints to trade up for Olave, and he has close to the 1000 yrds for them as a rookie, the Saints committed to a player and did what it took to get him, just as Guty did to get Savage and this year to get Watson, Guty wouldn't do so for Jefferson or Ayuik because he wasn't committed to improving the WR position as much as he was in finding Rodgers replacement.
11. Combining the team's predraft and draft-day trades, the Saints essentially gave up five picks to select Olave: two 2022 third-rounders, a 2022 fourth-rounder, a 2023 first-rounder, and a 2024 second-rounder. That's an absurd amount of draft capital for a team to surrender for any one player.
we wouldn't have had to give up near that to move below slot 22.
Saints had two first round picks, so not comparable.
And it was stupid of them to move up for Olave, they don't have a good enough roster to make moves like that. That's why they are 4-9, last in a weak division.
Now you are claiming the trade up for Watson is proof we could have gotten JJ but Gute isn't committed to the WR position... praytell, what position does Watson play?
And talk about defending, when I said our need at S was very pressing when we took Savage, you basically just shrugged it off by saying bad S play has been a norm for years. I guess we should only care about fixing weak spots on the roster if it's WR.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 11:25
by Raptorman
Yoop wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 07:52
we went without quality safety's for most of your life Labrev,
and if your draft capitol is slot 30 in every round ya just offer a 2nd instead of a 3rd, if ya want talent then ya pay what it takes to get it, such as the signing of the 2 Smiths.
we went 8 years without bringing in a highly rated receiver, why anyone would condone that is mind boggling, again we blame our play off losses on defense or ST's, rightfully so, but simply putting more points on the score board would have worked too.
The main problem with this argument is that too much value is placed on WR's and other players picked in the first round. And putting more points on the board doesn't always solve the problem. The 5th and 6th leading scoring team in the NFL right now are the Lions and Seahawks, One isn't really even in the playoff hunt. They think they are, but the teams they are going up against have much better defenses.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 13:09
by Yoop
Raptorman wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 11:25
Yoop wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 07:52
we went without quality safety's for most of your life Labrev,
and if your draft capitol is slot 30 in every round ya just offer a 2nd instead of a 3rd, if ya want talent then ya pay what it takes to get it, such as the signing of the 2 Smiths.
we went 8 years without bringing in a highly rated receiver, why anyone would condone that is mind boggling, again we blame our play off losses on defense or ST's, rightfully so, but simply putting more points on the score board would have worked too.
The main problem with this argument is that too much value is placed on WR's and other players picked in the first round. And putting more points on the board doesn't always solve the problem. The 5th and 6th leading scoring team in the NFL right now are the Lions and Seahawks, One isn't really even in the playoff hunt. They think they are, but the teams they are going up against have much better defenses.
since the live ball era teams spend more draft capitol on WR then any other position, look it up and prove me wrong, I didn't bother to because I'am sure I'am right.
sure it takes more then just a good group of receivers to win, but being able to score points is the most important aspect of the game, take Jefferson away and the vikes struggle,
and thats why the highest projected WR's go early in the first round, you got a steal when Jefferson lasted till slot 22, several posters here including myself thought he was the best of that top 5 or 6 and we where right, I would have used our slot 30 and and 2021 2nd and 3rd to move up to get him and if that wasn't enough I'd have used the 1st rounder, hindsight being 20/20 I would have been justified to do that.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 13:21
by Pckfn23
1544 wide receivers drafted since, and including 1978. 2075 offensive lineman.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 13:42
by Yoop
Labrev wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 10:42
Yoop wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 09:40
your really spreading the horse manure to defend this idiotic crap Labrev, it wasn't any harder in fact not even half as hard for us to jump Minny and take Jefferson as it was for the Saints to trade up for Olave, and he has close to the 1000 yrds for them as a rookie, the Saints committed to a player and did what it took to get him, just as Guty did to get Savage and this year to get Watson, Guty wouldn't do so for Jefferson or Ayuik because he wasn't committed to improving the WR position as much as he was in finding Rodgers replacement.
11. Combining the team's predraft and draft-day trades, the Saints essentially gave up five picks to select Olave: two 2022 third-rounders, a 2022 fourth-rounder, a 2023 first-rounder, and a 2024 second-rounder. That's an absurd amount of draft capital for a team to surrender for any one player.
we wouldn't have had to give up near that to move below slot 22.
Saints had two first round picks, so not comparable.
And it was stupid of them to move up for Olave, they don't have a good enough roster to make moves like that. That's why they are 4-9, last in a weak division.
Now you are claiming the trade up for Watson is proof we could have gotten JJ but Gute isn't committed to the WR position... praytell, what position does Watson play?
And talk about defending, when I said our need at S was very pressing when we took Savage, you basically just shrugged it off by saying bad S play has been a norm for years. I guess we should only care about fixing weak spots on the roster if it's WR.
I don't know what NO having 2 first round picks has to do with this, they liked a player, and did what it took to get him, thats it, and they didn't draft Olave to win a SB this year, they did it to rebuild there offense.
the biggest blunder Ted Thompson ever made was to quit taking a 2nd round WR after 2014 with Adams, we had one of the most explosive offenses in the League when Rodgers had more then ONE quality receiver, it was like putting a choke collar on a attack dog, once Nelson was hurt the offense declined, Rodgers developed tunnel vision with Adams, and the passing part of our offense became harder and harder, and imo the lack of impact players on offense probably cost PO games and even a SB appearance.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 13:48
by Scott4Pack
We could spend all day between now and April talking about how we “coulda, shoulda, woulda” by not trading picks for higher picks. That really won’t help. The hindsight is usually a lot better than foresight.
That said, it was reasonable to believe that Savage would progress. And who wouldn’t want a Safety with that kind of speed? We haven’t had that since Nick Collins. And very few teams ever get that.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 14:05
by Pckfn23
Scott4Pack wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 13:48
We could spend all day between now and April talking about how we “coulda, shoulda, woulda” by not trading picks for higher picks. That really won’t help. The hindsight is usually a lot better than foresight.
That said, it was reasonable to believe that Savage would progress. And who wouldn’t want a Safety with that kind of speed? We haven’t had that since Nick Collins. And very few teams ever get that.
Bravo!
All of us can bitch about a bust here and a missed pick there and every once in a while we may have been right even before the pick. Every year, every team misses out on 250ish players. That doesn't mean we should complain about it every time one of those 250 does good things with their other team...
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 14:29
by Labrev
Yoop wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 13:42
I don't know what NO having 2 first round picks has to do with this, they liked a player, and did what it took to get him, thats it,
It has to do with the idea that teams should have the resources to trade up in the first place, and that trading up should be reasonable, not crazy-talk.
Sure, if you don't have resources to trade up reasonably, you can "always" trade up if you make teams an offer they can't refuse, but that quickly begins to defeat the purpose of getting them.
We had all-world WRs in 2011 + Rodgers in his prime. That still was not enough to mask poor defense.
You can only mask so many weak spots.
and they didn't draft Olave to win a SB this year, they did it to rebuild there offense.
Trading up for Olave is not stupid because he won't win them a SB this year. It's stupid because their roster is so full of holes that they do not have the luxury of paying a premium for a top talent at just one position; all the bad play from other spots will take away from any good they get out of Olave.
NO is not just gonna suck this year, they are gonna suck for a long while.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 14:34
by Labrev
Yoop wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 13:09
I would have used our slot 30 and and 2021 2nd and 3rd to move up to get him and if that wasn't enough I'd have used the 1st rounder, hindsight being 20/20 I would have been justified to do that.
So, using hindsight, the pick we used to get our starting C and starting CB. Unless we got Douglas and Nixon in this alternative universe, our CB room would suck, which is what did us in in 2020 way more than a lack of WRs did.
Bigger issue, you'd likely have a lousy C. Weren't you complaining about how much the OL made Rodgers look bad, how do you think it would have looked without a high 2021 pick to get a C?
Using four high picks to get Justin Jefferson would have been outrageous.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 14:49
by Captain_Ben
Raptorman wrote: ↑11 Dec 2022 17:44
Captain_Ben wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022 17:43
Raptorman wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022 17:37
REally think he would give up part of $48 million in signing bonus money. Because the Rams would ask for some of that back.
Hey Raptor, who is your pick to win the Super Bowl this year?
After this week, if I had to pick 2 teams in the SB, it would be the Bills and Niners. With the niners takinng it.
I can get on board with that pick. Except I think KC represents the AFC. Seems like SF has at least 1 All Pro at every position group.
Re: Week 14 Games
Posted: 12 Dec 2022 15:10
by Scott4Pack
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 14:05
Scott4Pack wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022 13:48
We could spend all day between now and April talking about how we “coulda, shoulda, woulda” by not trading picks for higher picks. That really won’t help. The hindsight is usually a lot better than foresight.
That said, it was reasonable to believe that Savage would progress. And who wouldn’t want a Safety with that kind of speed? We haven’t had that since Nick Collins. And very few teams ever get that.
Bravo!
All of us can bitch about a bust here and a missed pick there and every once in a while we may have been right even before the pick. Every year, every team misses out on 250ish players. That doesn't mean we should complain about it every time one of those 250 does good things with their other team...
Just look at how many are laughing now about “Mr Relevant” after his Niners won and he outplayed Tom Brady. Yeah, it’s only one game. But you know some people are already jumping on the bandwagon with the “I told you so!”
:-)