Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 30 Aug 2024 11:46
The DC who stubbornly sticks with a system that's been figured and who doesn't evolve with the ever-changing game is, by definition, a lousy DC.
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Packers Defense - 2024
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Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 31 Aug 2024 09:24
shallow dive, you know it's more complicated then just "he's a lousy DC if he can't some how reinvent his schemes" as we have now seen with Hafely, it takes certain players to do well for any scheme to work, thats why Gute brought in McKinny, it's why Capers schemes failed after losing Collins and then Woodson, not to mention all the injuries, 100% and Mathews was a terror, problem was he helped not at all sitting on the bench, which was so often the case.
IT take's talent for any defense to do well, and if any fans should know that it's us, we blame the DC because we don't want to blame our GM's, do I have to list all the misses drafted to our defenses over the years, our cut lists are loaded with em, during Teds tenure, hows a DC suppose to evolve his schemes with a bunch of jags.
for a defense to even be mid tier in this league it must be good at either pass rush or coverage, one facet has to be real good, the other at least average, or you'll get what we have for most of the last 15 years, ya can't get by with mid tier pass rush and zero coverage, which is basically the situation when ya lose your top 4 CB's, as happened to us one season, or only having one legit starting safety and ILB.
these are not excuses to defend any DC, there simply the situations out defenses and cords have had to deal with since 2011.
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 31 Aug 2024 09:38
Overall I am of the firm belief that our defenses have underperformed with the talent it has had.
I hope/feel Hafley is going to buck that trend.
I hope/feel Hafley is going to buck that trend.
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 31 Aug 2024 10:54
believe whatever you want
there isn't a person on this defense that was hear 8 years ago, and very few are even in the nfl any longer.
finally it has some talented players, and if they stay healthy they could do well, do you think Hafely's defense will be better then what Capers accomplished his first 2 seasons? that would be a great job.
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 31 Aug 2024 10:58
? ? Kind of a strange post to a quote. I don't get your point.Yoop wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024 10:54believe whatever you want
there isn't a person on this defense that was hear 8 years ago, and very few are even in the nfl any longer.
finally it has some talented players, and if they stay healthy they could do well, do you think Hafely's defense will be better then what Capers accomplished his first 2 seasons? that would be a great job.
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 31 Aug 2024 11:09
Spags' D doesn't seem to get figured out despite how long he has been doing it, and he does it without being loaded with all-stars/Pro-Bowl guys.Yoop wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024 09:24shallow dive, you know it's more complicated then just "he's a lousy DC if he can't some how reinvent his schemes" as we have now seen with Hafely, it takes certain players to do well for any scheme to work, thats why Gute brought in McKinny, it's why Capers schemes failed after losing Collins and then Woodson, not to mention all the injuries, 100% and Mathews was a terror, problem was he helped not at all sitting on the bench, which was so often the case.
IT take's talent for any defense to do well, and if any fans should know that it's us, we blame the DC because we don't want to blame our GM's, do I have to list all the misses drafted to our defenses over the years, our cut lists are loaded with em, during Teds tenure, hows a DC suppose to evolve his schemes with a bunch of jags.
for a defense to even be mid tier in this league it must be good at either pass rush or coverage, one facet has to be real good, the other at least average, or you'll get what we have for most of the last 15 years, ya can't get by with mid tier pass rush and zero coverage, which is basically the situation when ya lose your top 4 CB's, as happened to us one season, or only having one legit starting safety and ILB.
these are not excuses to defend any DC, there simply the situations out defenses and cords have had to deal with since 2011.
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 31 Aug 2024 11:20
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 31 Aug 2024 11:30
that narrative is fact based, and you know it, just go back year by year and it's obvious our defenses have lacked talent, heck year after year we lost whole position groups of starter level players, and at the two most important position on defense, CB and edge rusher.
we kept Capers as long as we did because the FO knew he was not the main problem, it was so frustrating listening to members here continually blame him, when the issue was lack of player talent.
so damn obvious, except to those covering for Teds draft misses
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 31 Aug 2024 11:40
what I'am saying is there are reason why a cord can't just change his schemes, unless you have players that can perform doing the new stuff it doesn't help to change, in fact it likely becomes a negative, if you don't have a safety that can play single high then your stuck playing quarters or some sort of cover 2,MY_TAKE wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024 10:58? ? Kind of a strange post to a quote. I don't get your point.Yoop wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024 10:54believe whatever you want
there isn't a person on this defense that was hear 8 years ago, and very few are even in the nfl any longer.
finally it has some talented players, and if they stay healthy they could do well, do you think Hafely's defense will be better then what Capers accomplished his first 2 seasons? that would be a great job.
if ya want to play 4-3 ya need a good rotation of DT's, want to play base in coverage ya need ILB that can hang with TE's and RB's., these are realities people are over looking.
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 31 Aug 2024 11:44
sure some cords are better then others, however KC also went and brought in talent he was able to use when he adjusted his schemes, KC seems pass rush excellent year in and year out.Labrev wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024 11:09Spags' D doesn't seem to get figured out despite how long he has been doing it, and he does it without being loaded with all-stars/Pro-Bowl guys.Yoop wrote: ↑31 Aug 2024 09:24shallow dive, you know it's more complicated then just "he's a lousy DC if he can't some how reinvent his schemes" as we have now seen with Hafely, it takes certain players to do well for any scheme to work, thats why Gute brought in McKinny, it's why Capers schemes failed after losing Collins and then Woodson, not to mention all the injuries, 100% and Mathews was a terror, problem was he helped not at all sitting on the bench, which was so often the case.
IT take's talent for any defense to do well, and if any fans should know that it's us, we blame the DC because we don't want to blame our GM's, do I have to list all the misses drafted to our defenses over the years, our cut lists are loaded with em, during Teds tenure, hows a DC suppose to evolve his schemes with a bunch of jags.
for a defense to even be mid tier in this league it must be good at either pass rush or coverage, one facet has to be real good, the other at least average, or you'll get what we have for most of the last 15 years, ya can't get by with mid tier pass rush and zero coverage, which is basically the situation when ya lose your top 4 CB's, as happened to us one season, or only having one legit starting safety and ILB.
these are not excuses to defend any DC, there simply the situations out defenses and cords have had to deal with since 2011.
again, successful defense excel at one or the other of pass rush or coverage or both.
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 31 Aug 2024 12:15
I did not like Barry and thought it was a dog &%$@ hire from the get go. That said idk what people expect from their DC when you have a league wide worst safety position. That is more a failure in the GM than it is on the DC.
Gutenbumst corrected it this season and IMO this is the first time he has fielded a team that has no absolutely glaring weakness on it. Too many years he fielded teams with the worst WR2 and 3 units or really bad TE units or really bad ILB play or really bad S play or really bad CB2 play. I don’t think we have any massive glaring weakness right now on offense or defense. It’s all STs at K right now that has me thinking this team will fall short again.
Gutenbumst corrected it this season and IMO this is the first time he has fielded a team that has no absolutely glaring weakness on it. Too many years he fielded teams with the worst WR2 and 3 units or really bad TE units or really bad ILB play or really bad S play or really bad CB2 play. I don’t think we have any massive glaring weakness right now on offense or defense. It’s all STs at K right now that has me thinking this team will fall short again.
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 01 Sep 2024 06:58
"In this world, nothing is certain except death, taxes...and the annual reminder that it wasn't Dom's fault."
- Benjamin Franklin
- Benjamin Franklin
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 01 Sep 2024 07:33
now that's funny
again it may seem like it wouldn't be too difficult to change up, but we need to look how well Guty has done adding players specific to what Hafely's schemes need, and it's taken Gute years to do so.
the DL is a great example, he started with Clark, and Smith, everyone else is new, and they fit best as single gap penetrators, or brute size edge rushers.
every ILB is a Gute draft pick, there a bit smaller, but fast, and have coverage ability, same with the secondary, we needed a center fielder to play Hafely's attacking style with 1 deep safety.
If your goal is man coverage you can't sit back in 2 high, but to do so, you have to a talented deep safety, we needed a McKinny, a roamer with the instincts to know where he needs to be, Savage seemed to never grasp that well, plus another safety with 2 tech abilities like Bullard, these are key additions required to switch from the Fangio prevent zone dominate schemes to the attacking style Hav wants to use.
so imo, switches like these typically require different types, or even just better players, and to not have them basically makes switching a losing proposition.
there are 32 DC in the league per year, amongst thousands of candidates, you don't get to be one of the 32 if your lousy
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 01 Sep 2024 14:47
Everything is relative.
Is Joe Barry a better Defensive Coordinator than the guy calling the shots for the local high school football squad? Almost certainly.
Are Shawn Slocum, Ron Zook, Shawn Mennega, and Mo Drayton better STs coordinators than everyone participating in this forum? Undoubtedly.
However, 3-time loser Barry and the quartet of ST Coordinator failures listed above were, by any measure, lousy coordinators compared to their peers around the NFL while they worked in GB.
Without revisiting the Dom Capers issue, Dom was not a LOUSY DC throughout his time in the NFL, not even close.
But Dom's time as an effective DC was over in GB by at least by 2014.
Belichek is the best head coach in the modern era and his final seasons in NE were for want of a better word LOUSY.
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 01 Sep 2024 23:37
I believe 100% than anyone in this forum can do as good a job of any of those &%$@ STs coordinator. Can’t do any worse than 32nd and that is why it was a complete failure from top down. From Murphy to LaFleur and someone should have stepped in to say this is complete incompetence trash and we are going to do SOMETHING. ANTHING, to correct this incompetence.
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 06 Sep 2024 23:51
Well, after game one, I can't really think of anything that looked a whole lot better defensively tonight.
Great pick by McKinney, but seems like more of a bad throw by Hurts (Love made a similar bad throw over the middle).
I remember with the game on the line feeling like SF was going to go right down and score to end last season and I had that same feeling after Narveson kicked the chip shot with 6+ minutes left tonight and sure enough Philly drove right down to the 1.
Kind of sad how numb Packer fans have become to giving up 30+ points and and not being able to get off the field defensively in big games.
Great pick by McKinney, but seems like more of a bad throw by Hurts (Love made a similar bad throw over the middle).
I remember with the game on the line feeling like SF was going to go right down and score to end last season and I had that same feeling after Narveson kicked the chip shot with 6+ minutes left tonight and sure enough Philly drove right down to the 1.
Kind of sad how numb Packer fans have become to giving up 30+ points and and not being able to get off the field defensively in big games.
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 07 Sep 2024 00:10
I felt they had a legitimate plan for the RPO stuff, tush push, and Hurts' scrambling. That's a change from Barry. For better or worse, they were also more aggressive, so slips and missed tackles are more magnified.LombardiTime wrote: ↑06 Sep 2024 23:51Well, after game one, I can't really think of anything that looked a whole lot better defensively tonight.
...
Do I count the two dropped picks as negatives or slight positives?
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 07 Sep 2024 00:18
Good points, and thanks for the potential positives going forward.Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑07 Sep 2024 00:10I felt they had a legitimate plan for the RPO stuff, tush push, and Hurts' scrambling. That's a change from Barry. For better or worse, they were also more aggressive, so slips and missed tackles are more magnified.LombardiTime wrote: ↑06 Sep 2024 23:51Well, after game one, I can't really think of anything that looked a whole lot better defensively tonight.
...
Do I count the two dropped picks as negatives or slight positives?
I agree that they contained Hurts pretty well and that was certainly a change from Barry.
Just depressing that when it is 3rd and 7 (or more) it still seems like an upset to get a stop.
Also thought we might see a bit more aggressiveness, but maybe that will come as the season progresses.
Stokes and Jaire were not impressive and to think we might need to burn another high pick on a CB is just maddening.
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 07 Sep 2024 07:16
We hated "bend but don't break" and wanted an attacking defense even if it would risk giving up more big plays.
This is what that looks like.
This is what that looks like.
Re: Packers Defense - 2024
Posted: 07 Sep 2024 07:34
Really?
I saw a D that gave up one long TD to AJ Brown and otherwise was methodically worn down like most every other iteration of the Packers defense the past ten plus years.
34 points and 74 offensive plays by Philly and that is with Hurts making 2 horrible throws that were picked and a gift botched snap for a turnover. Hurts was not very good and the Eagles still dominated this defense.
Poor tackling, easy pitch and catches on third downs beyond the sticks, missing run gaps, lack of a pass rush and other Packer defensive staples were on full display.
This organization has failed on the defensive side of the ball for so long that I think most fans have come to unconsciously accept it, just like with Special Teams.