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Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 07 Dec 2020 14:50
by go pak go
Yoop wrote: ↑07 Dec 2020 14:30
go pak go wrote: ↑07 Dec 2020 13:30
Yoop wrote: ↑07 Dec 2020 13:14
I never really thought Pettine would be fired, the revolving door at ILB is a real issue that he really has no control over, and he built the DL to rush the passer, who wouldn't, after all it is a passing league, problem is OC know this, so they run, the answer imho is we need improvement at ILB, player that wont handicap our coverage, yet are still stout enough to play the run, we accomplish that and you'll have your top 10 defense, least thats how I see this issue.
Yeah I can't get behind that. You should already have a top 10 defense when you have a top 5 secondary, particularly top 5 CB group, supposedly top 5 pass rushing group and a Blue Chip DT.
I mean we have far, far worse resources and players on our offensive line and yet look at what the scheme and coaching has done for that group.
This defense has the talent to be a top 10 unit. And honestly a top 10 unit isn't that GREAT of a defense. Super Bowl winning defenses are top 5 defenses. The Packers have never won a Super Bowl with a defense worse than a top 5 defense.
Our largest issues post bye is primarily us not being able to get off the field when we are supposed to get off the field. If that continues in the post season, that is what will end up ending this defense. And I do place blame on coaching there.
There clearly has been something off on defense this year where production isn't lining up with talent. By no means do you fire Pettine now. But I think you do need to move on and get Matt's guy if it doesn't improve the next two months.
doesn't matter if you have a #1 coverage secondary, doesn't matter if you have great pass rushers, if you can't stop the run do those ratings even matter? and just as one rotten apple spoils the barrel, one weak position on defense taints the production against the better offenses, it always comes down to matchups, for instance offenses with excellent run blocking a stud RB will lock us into our run stopping group, and if they go no huddle, now they can pass against our weak coverage, just as the Colts did to start the 2nd half and they dinked and dunked us for 7 points.
look I'am not so concerned with retaining Pettine, but unless Kirksey, Martin and Barnes become better in coverage that position is going to kill us against teams like last years 49's, this years Bucs, or the Saints if Bree's gets healthy.
look I'am not trying to win a argument or debate about this, what I'am saying is obvious, there are a half doz articles at JS oline, acme, and other packers news sight that will tell you the same thing
Yup. And then we get the inside linebacker at the cost of another position and then complain about our lack of another position and round and round the cycle goes of pointing out the weak position spot.
Kirksey absolutely looks like he is running in mud. But that doesn't mean this defense can't be a top 10 defense. Our lack of ILB doesn't have much to do with our defense not being able to get off the field when it is 3rd and 8 or longer. That is our primary issue at this point. In all of our losses this year, the opposing offense has made their big plays primarily on 3rd and long.
We can't let that happen.
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 07 Dec 2020 15:04
by lupedafiasco
go pak go wrote: ↑07 Dec 2020 14:50
Yoop wrote: ↑07 Dec 2020 14:30
go pak go wrote: ↑07 Dec 2020 13:30
Yeah I can't get behind that. You should already have a top 10 defense when you have a top 5 secondary, particularly top 5 CB group, supposedly top 5 pass rushing group and a Blue Chip DT.
I mean we have far, far worse resources and players on our offensive line and yet look at what the scheme and coaching has done for that group.
This defense has the talent to be a top 10 unit. And honestly a top 10 unit isn't that GREAT of a defense. Super Bowl winning defenses are top 5 defenses. The Packers have never won a Super Bowl with a defense worse than a top 5 defense.
Our largest issues post bye is primarily us not being able to get off the field when we are supposed to get off the field. If that continues in the post season, that is what will end up ending this defense. And I do place blame on coaching there.
There clearly has been something off on defense this year where production isn't lining up with talent. By no means do you fire Pettine now. But I think you do need to move on and get Matt's guy if it doesn't improve the next two months.
doesn't matter if you have a #1 coverage secondary, doesn't matter if you have great pass rushers, if you can't stop the run do those ratings even matter? and just as one rotten apple spoils the barrel, one weak position on defense taints the production against the better offenses, it always comes down to matchups, for instance offenses with excellent run blocking a stud RB will lock us into our run stopping group, and if they go no huddle, now they can pass against our weak coverage, just as the Colts did to start the 2nd half and they dinked and dunked us for 7 points.
look I'am not so concerned with retaining Pettine, but unless Kirksey, Martin and Barnes become better in coverage that position is going to kill us against teams like last years 49's, this years Bucs, or the Saints if Bree's gets healthy.
look I'am not trying to win a argument or debate about this, what I'am saying is obvious, there are a half doz articles at JS oline, acme, and other packers news sight that will tell you the same thing
Yup. And then we get the inside linebacker at the cost of another position and then complain about our lack of another position and round and round the cycle goes of pointing out the weak position spot.
Kirksey absolutely looks like he is running in mud. But that doesn't mean this defense can't be a top 10 defense. Our lack of ILB doesn't have much to do with our defense not being able to get off the field when it is 3rd and 8 or longer. That is our primary issue at this point. In all of our losses this year, the opposing offense has made their big plays primarily on 3rd and long.
We can't let that happen.
I would agree if ILB hadnt been a weakness for a decade+. At some point you need to do something to improve. The Kirksey pickup had upside. Looking back it made little sense to hope Kirksey would be the answer. Even at his peak he was more of the weakside and sideline to sideline guy. Schobert was the playmaker for the Browns. The injuries that have piled up on Kirksey have really sapped his athleticism. He looks slow now and not very physical.
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 07 Dec 2020 15:45
by Yoop
go pak go wrote: ↑07 Dec 2020 14:50
Yoop wrote: ↑07 Dec 2020 14:30
go pak go wrote: ↑07 Dec 2020 13:30
Yeah I can't get behind that. You should already have a top 10 defense when you have a top 5 secondary, particularly top 5 CB group, supposedly top 5 pass rushing group and a Blue Chip DT.
I mean we have far, far worse resources and players on our offensive line and yet look at what the scheme and coaching has done for that group.
This defense has the talent to be a top 10 unit. And honestly a top 10 unit isn't that GREAT of a defense. Super Bowl winning defenses are top 5 defenses. The Packers have never won a Super Bowl with a defense worse than a top 5 defense.
Our largest issues post bye is primarily us not being able to get off the field when we are supposed to get off the field. If that continues in the post season, that is what will end up ending this defense. And I do place blame on coaching there.
There clearly has been something off on defense this year where production isn't lining up with talent. By no means do you fire Pettine now. But I think you do need to move on and get Matt's guy if it doesn't improve the next two months.
doesn't matter if you have a #1 coverage secondary, doesn't matter if you have great pass rushers, if you can't stop the run do those ratings even matter? and just as one rotten apple spoils the barrel, one weak position on defense taints the production against the better offenses, it always comes down to matchups, for instance offenses with excellent run blocking a stud RB will lock us into our run stopping group, and if they go no huddle, now they can pass against our weak coverage, just as the Colts did to start the 2nd half and they dinked and dunked us for 7 points.
look I'am not so concerned with retaining Pettine, but unless Kirksey, Martin and Barnes become better in coverage that position is going to kill us against teams like last years 49's, this years Bucs, or the Saints if Bree's gets healthy.
look I'am not trying to win a argument or debate about this, what I'am saying is obvious, there are a half doz articles at JS oline, acme, and other packers news sight that will tell you the same thing
Yup. And then we get the inside linebacker at the cost of another position and then complain about our lack of another position and round and round the cycle goes of pointing out the weak position spot.
Kirksey absolutely looks like he is running in mud. But that doesn't mean this defense can't be a top 10 defense. Our lack of ILB doesn't have much to do with our defense not being able to get off the field when it is 3rd and 8 or longer. That is our primary issue at this point. In all of our losses this year, the opposing offense has made their big plays primarily on 3rd and long.
We can't let that happen.
look at what offenses are spending money on, RB's and slot type receivers, gadget guys that can get separation in a phone both, and where do these type players do the most damage? in the box, so the 3rd and 8 happens in lber ally, offenses are attacking the interior more now imo, hense ILB is now a premium position, and the better defenses have two that are very good in coverage as well as stout enough to shed off blocks and make tackles.
why anyone would think a defense can be really good with a weak spot any where in the back 7 is mind boggling, maybe for a game or so, DC's with excellent secondary's still play N/D over 60% of the time, and still get beat.
as I said, the ratings can be deceiving, and the difference of being #12 or being #8 is of little importance to me, all that matters is that we get more 3 and outs, so we can watch Rodgers throw footballs
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 07 Dec 2020 16:04
by bobsacamano
paco wrote: ↑07 Dec 2020 09:38
If the D keeps trending in this direction, Pettine is probably not getting fired. Playing better each week.
Until the defense's inevitable playoff collapse?
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 07 Dec 2020 16:32
by YoHoChecko
lupedafiasco wrote: ↑07 Dec 2020 15:04
Looking back it made little sense to hope Kirksey would be the answer. Even at his peak he was more of the weakside and sideline to sideline guy. Schobert was the playmaker for the Browns. The injuries that have piled up on Kirksey have really sapped his athleticism. He looks slow now and not very physical.
That's interesting, I feel like the issue with Kirksey is less his athleticism, but his reaction time; that's what surprises me because as the seasoned vet with leadership experience and a guy who calls the plays, this was supposed to be the benefit. But it's his first step that looks more like mud to me than this movement in space.
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 07 Dec 2020 16:45
by bud fox
Kenny Clark has been poor this year - getting pushed around in one on ones.
Good line play would make a big difference.
Hoping Clark has been carrying an injury and this isn't post contract Kenny.
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 07 Dec 2020 18:36
by German_Panzer
Greg Williams was fired by the Jets in-season. So we see: it ain't impossible. (Though complete different situation with the Jets out of the Playoff picture).
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 08 Dec 2020 09:57
by paco
bud fox wrote: ↑07 Dec 2020 16:45
Kenny Clark has been poor this year - getting pushed around in one on ones.
Good line play would make a big difference.
Hoping Clark has been carrying an injury and this isn't post contract Kenny.
While he hasn't been getting on the stat sheet as much, and he is getting pushed around some, I think he's still had some good play. There are times he completely murders a guy. He's also getting doubled often. I wish we'd see more from him, but I'm not worried at this point about him.
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 08 Dec 2020 09:59
by BF004
I definitely wouldn't say poor. I would say not to his standard, but his play is still overall a plus. And I do think that groin injury is still bugging him. Those have been known to linger.
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 08 Dec 2020 10:03
by paco
BF004 wrote: ↑08 Dec 2020 09:59
I definitely wouldn't say poor. I would say not to his standard, but his play is still overall a plus. And I do think that groin injury is still bugging him. Those have been known to linger.
I forgot about the groin. I bet that is affecting him. Not enough to be on the injury report, but those stick with guys all year. Not going to get the same leverage and push if that isn't feeling right.
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 08 Dec 2020 15:27
by bud fox
paco wrote: ↑08 Dec 2020 09:57
bud fox wrote: ↑07 Dec 2020 16:45
Kenny Clark has been poor this year - getting pushed around in one on ones.
Good line play would make a big difference.
Hoping Clark has been carrying an injury and this isn't post contract Kenny.
While he hasn't been getting on the stat sheet as much, and he is getting pushed around some, I think he's still had some good play. There are times he completely murders a guy. He's also getting doubled often. I wish we'd see more from him, but I'm not worried at this point about him.
We need another body next to Clark, like a Pickett, who will stop the run because Clark hasn't been good in that role. Our line is built to rush the passer but if our offense doesn't score and we go behind its trouble. We are lucky that the offense is so good that it keeps teams passing because if they get ahead and are able to rush we will lose.
Three highest rushing yards allowed games this season we lost.
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 08 Dec 2020 15:46
by Pckfn23
Wait I thought Clark was a run stopper only?
Clark is fine run stopper.
We have run stoppers next to Clark like Lancaster, Winn, and now Rush. Lowry has been doing much better as well.
It isn't the guys on the defensive line as much as how we play them and the OLBs.
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 08 Dec 2020 16:11
by bud fox
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑08 Dec 2020 15:46
Wait I thought Clark was a run stopper only?
Clark is fine run stopper.
We have run stoppers next to Clark like Lancaster, Winn, and now Rush. Lowry has been doing much better as well.
It isn't the guys on the defensive line as much as how we play them and the OLBs.
Easy to blame coaches but losing player battles is on players.
Clark hasn't been good this year. We are 25th in Average Yards per attempt against but only 8 in rushing attempts against. We are lucky Rodgers forces teams to throw. The team is built to stop the pass but it can be messy against good teams.
This is why playoffs are a problem when we come up against good teams that can stop our off and then just pound it on us.
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 08 Dec 2020 16:23
by YoHoChecko
bud fox wrote: ↑08 Dec 2020 16:11
This is why playoffs are a problem when we come up against good teams that can stop our off and then just pound it on us.
Yes, when teams are able to stop your greatest strength, at which you are the best in the league; and they are also able to exploit your greatest weakness, they often match up well with you. Killer observation.
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 08 Dec 2020 16:25
by Pckfn23
bud fox wrote: ↑08 Dec 2020 16:11
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑08 Dec 2020 15:46
Wait I thought Clark was a run stopper only?
Clark is fine run stopper.
We have run stoppers next to Clark like Lancaster, Winn, and now Rush. Lowry has been doing much better as well.
It isn't the guys on the defensive line as much as how we play them and the OLBs.
Easy to blame coaches but losing player battles is on players.
Clark hasn't been good this year. We are 25th in Average Yards per attempt against but only 8 in rushing attempts against. We are lucky Rodgers forces teams to throw. The team is built to stop the pass but it can be messy against good teams.
This is why playoffs are a problem when we come up against good teams that can stop our off and then just pound it on us.
Not easy at all to blame coaches. One must first know what is going on, on the field. Easy to see when players are losing one on one battles. Clark has not been losing those one on one battles often.
Not plural, it was a problem against San Fransisco last year. It was not a problem in 2015 or 2016. San Fransisco, just like this year is somewhat a player issue, more so OLB, but it is mostly a scheme issue. We don't prioritize stopping the run, so we don't stop the run. We allow our OLBs to be undisciplined. We play nickel and dime against run personnel.
I posted a few weeks back showing we have one of the largest differentials of outside the tackle runs compared to inside the tackle runs. Teams are gouging us outside, not inside.
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 08 Dec 2020 16:42
by bud fox
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑08 Dec 2020 16:25
bud fox wrote: ↑08 Dec 2020 16:11
Pckfn23 wrote: ↑08 Dec 2020 15:46
Wait I thought Clark was a run stopper only?
Clark is fine run stopper.
We have run stoppers next to Clark like Lancaster, Winn, and now Rush. Lowry has been doing much better as well.
It isn't the guys on the defensive line as much as how we play them and the OLBs.
Easy to blame coaches but losing player battles is on players.
Clark hasn't been good this year. We are 25th in Average Yards per attempt against but only 8 in rushing attempts against. We are lucky Rodgers forces teams to throw. The team is built to stop the pass but it can be messy against good teams.
This is why playoffs are a problem when we come up against good teams that can stop our off and then just pound it on us.
Not easy at all to blame coaches. One must first know what is going on, on the field. Easy to see when players are losing one on one battles. Clark has not been losing those one on one battles often.
Not plural, it was a problem against San Fransisco last year. It was not a problem in 2015 or 2016. San Fransisco, just like this year is somewhat a player issue, more so OLB, but it is mostly a scheme issue. We don't prioritize stopping the run, so we don't stop the run. We allow our OLBs to be undisciplined. We play nickel and dime against run personnel.
I posted a few weeks back showing we have one of the largest differentials of outside the tackle runs compared to inside the tackle runs. Teams are gouging us outside, not inside.
I don't disagree that the Smith's have been bad at holding the edge. I would be interested to see that stat and how it compares across the league.
Kenny Clark PFF ranking:
2016 = 74.8
2017 = 87.8
2018 = 90.5
2019 = can't find
2020 = 64.9
He has been bad and is losing a heap of one on ones that he previously wasn't. I have said before I hope he is injured and this isn't post contract Kenny.
Re: Official Fire Pettine Thread
Posted: 08 Dec 2020 16:53
by Pckfn23
First Clark misses a handful of games to an injury, so no need to hope. Second, his pass rush hasn't been the same as years past, probably due to this injury. It isn't his run stopping that is suffering much. He can still anchor, but his explosiveness has been missing since his injury.