Packers Huddle

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:13

NCF wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:04

BF004 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 10:58

Looks like the only stark contrast from Blake is the jumping ability.

And ELITE 10 & 20 yard splits. Don't have Blake's handy, but given the percentiles, Warner gets going better than most.

I also think it's worth mentioning that Blake's 4.71 and Warner's 4.64 definitely breach some kind of barrier. I know it's nitpicky to say 0.07 seconds of speed is important, but when you're looking at a preferred range of around 4.55 - 4.65, Warner is just on the cusp of that, and Martinez easily outside of it. I don't know if that makes much more difference than the explosion visible in the jumps and splits, but I think it's noteworthy enough to mention as a difference.

I agree. I don't know exactly where that line should be, but there should be a line.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:13

NCF wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:04

BF004 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 10:58

Looks like the only stark contrast from Blake is the jumping ability.

And ELITE 10 & 20 yard splits. Don't have Blake's handy, but given the percentiles, Warner gets going better than most.

I also think it's worth mentioning that Blake's 4.71 and Warner's 4.64 definitely breach some kind of barrier. I know it's nitpicky to say 0.07 seconds of speed is important, but when you're looking at a preferred range of around 4.55 - 4.65, Warner is just on the cusp of that, and Martinez easily outside of it. I don't know if that makes much more difference than the explosion visible in the jumps and splits, but I think it's noteworthy enough to mention as a difference.

I think your range is too low. There are good linebackers that run a 4.7. Personally 4.75 is my line. Anything over that I would take them off the board.

Martinez' huge issue was pointed out by BF, that vertical is horrendous.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:14

Here is what it looks like for the average for 2nd Level linebackers:
Height: 6-1.5
Weight: 241
40 Yard Dash: 4.71
10 Yard Split: 1.61
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
Vertical Jump: 34"
Broad Jump: 116"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.26
3-Cone Drill: 7.1

That's insanely close to Martinez's actual numbers.
Height: 6' 1.6 (1/8" taller)
Weight: 237 (4 pounds lighter)
40 Yard Dash: 4.71 (exact)
10 Yard Split: 1.61 (exact)
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22 (exact)
Vertical Jump: 28.5" (5.5" higher)
Broad Jump: 113" (3" shorter)
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.20 (0.06 faster)
3-Cone Drill: 6.98 (0.12 faster)

Martinez: average 2nd level LB extraordinaire

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:19

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:14

Here is what it looks like for the average for 2nd Level linebackers:
Height: 6-1.5
Weight: 241
40 Yard Dash: 4.71
10 Yard Split: 1.61
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
Vertical Jump: 34"
Broad Jump: 116"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.26
3-Cone Drill: 7.1

That's insanely close to Martinez's actual numbers.
Height: 6' 1.6 (1/8" taller)
Weight: 237 (4 pounds lighter)
40 Yard Dash: 4.71 (exact)
10 Yard Split: 1.61 (exact)
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22 (exact)
Vertical Jump: 28.5" (5.5" higher)
Broad Jump: 113" (3" shorter)
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.20 (0.06 faster)
3-Cone Drill: 6.98 (0.12 faster)

Martinez: average 2nd level LB extraordinaire

Also need to take into account standard deviation. When you look at Vertical, for example, 5.5" might not seem like a lot, but that takes him from the 50th percentile to the 4th percentile.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:18

I think your range is too low. There are good linebackers that run a 4.7. Personally 4.75 is my line. Martinez' huge issue was pointed out by BF, that vertical is horrendous.

The question was "ideal."

My ideal is to have one of the faster LBs in the league, not the league average. My ideal is to get a guy like Kuechly (4.58) or Warner (4.64) or Roquan (4.51) or Bobby Wagner (4.46). Vander Esch was still at a 4.65 despite his better bulk.

That's my ideal. It's not too low. That's my range.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:23

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:18

I think your range is too low. There are good linebackers that run a 4.7. Personally 4.75 is my line. Martinez' huge issue was pointed out by BF, that vertical is horrendous.

The question was "ideal."

My ideal is to have one of the faster LBs in the league, not the league average. My ideal is to get a guy like Kuechly (4.58) or Warner (4.64) or Roquan (4.51) or Bobby Wagner (4.46). Vander Esch was still at a 4.65 despite his better bulk.

That's my ideal. It's not too low. That's my range.

You didn't specify that that was YOUR range.

well how has average worked out for us? I don't get all this love for average, it's been obvious since the early decline with AJ Hawks speed that average is what has really hurt us in short zone coverage, so much so that we,ve went through a half doz very average safety's attempting to gain more coverage speed, if anything these slow ( average doesn't mean a thing if average is to slow) lbers have been a huge liability.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:30

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:23

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:18

I think your range is too low. There are good linebackers that run a 4.7. Personally 4.75 is my line. Martinez' huge issue was pointed out by BF, that vertical is horrendous.

The question was "ideal."

My ideal is to have one of the faster LBs in the league, not the league average. My ideal is to get a guy like Kuechly (4.58) or Warner (4.64) or Roquan (4.51) or Bobby Wagner (4.46). Vander Esch was still at a 4.65 despite his better bulk.

That's my ideal. It's not too low. That's my range.

You didn't specify that that was YOUR range.

no he may not have, but I did right from the start. speed is our friend, bulky slow twitch lbers are a thing of the past. this is the nascar era of pro football

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:23

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:18

I think your range is too low. There are good linebackers that run a 4.7. Personally 4.75 is my line. Martinez' huge issue was pointed out by BF, that vertical is horrendous.

The question was "ideal."

My ideal is to have one of the faster LBs in the league, not the league average. My ideal is to get a guy like Kuechly (4.58) or Warner (4.64) or Roquan (4.51) or Bobby Wagner (4.46). Vander Esch was still at a 4.65 despite his better bulk.

That's my ideal. It's not too low. That's my range.

I think your point earlier that low cone and shuttle are better indicators of needed speed for ILB, unfortunatly some of the players only run the 40, to me though some of the other drills tell us more.

If I revise my vertical standards to at least 32" and my 40-time to 4.66 (because otherwise, a ton are getting chopped) and I count the few who don't have a 3-cone as at least temporarily qualifying, there are 12 LBs who meet my athletic standards (and at least 230 pounds) from this year's combine:

(in order of speed)
Isaiah Simmons
Willie Gay Jr
Shaun Bradley
Kenneth Murray
Jordan Brooks
Carter Coughlin
Casey Toohill
Logan Wilson
Malik Harrison
Mykal Walker

Baun misses due to broad jump; Davion Taylor due to weight; Jacob Phillips due to 3-cone; Kamara Azur due to jumps; Khalek Hudson due to weight.

So let's just take one or two of these guys, k? Preferably instinctive ones

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:31

well how has average worked out for us? I don't get all this love for average, it's been obvious since the early decline with AJ Hawks speed that average is what has really hurt us in short zone coverage, so much so that we,ve went through a half doz very average safety's attempting to gain more coverage speed, if anything these slow ( average doesn't mean a thing if average is to slow) lbers have been a huge liability.

What love for average? Who is loving average? Averages are just being stated as are ideals and thresholds... Nothing more. What your opinion of slow is and what actually is necessary to be a good ILB are 2 different things.

speed is our friend, bulky slow twitch lbers are a thing of the past. this is the nascar era of pro football

To put it bluntly, No &%$@.

Everyone would love to see a 240 pound linebacker that can run a 4.3, 6.8 3-cone, and 4.0 shuttle, while jumping out of the stadium. That's just not going to happen though. We can't trot out safeties and expect them to be good run defenders either. We need to find the best of both worlds and that isn't easy.

Queen is close enough to 230 for me.

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:50

If I revise my vertical standards to at least 32" and my 40-time to 4.66 (because otherwise, a ton are getting chopped) and I count the few who don't have a 3-cone as at least temporarily qualifying, there are 12 LBs who meet my athletic standards (and at least 230 pounds) from this year's combine:

(in order of speed)
Isaiah Simmons
Willie Gay Jr
Shaun Bradley
Kenneth Murray
Jordan Brooks
Carter Coughlin
Casey Toohill
Logan Wilson
Malik Harrison
Mykal Walker

Baun misses due to broad jump; Davion Taylor due to weight; Jacob Phillips due to 3-cone; Kamara Azur due to jumps; Khalek Hudson due to weight.

So let's just take one or two of these guys, k? Preferably instinctive ones

Do you have a nice sortable list somewhere?

I just did it myself:

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:31

well how has average worked out for us? I don't get all this love for average, it's been obvious since the early decline with AJ Hawks speed that average is what has really hurt us in short zone coverage, so much so that we,ve went through a half doz very average safety's attempting to gain more coverage speed, if anything these slow ( average doesn't mean a thing if average is to slow) lbers have been a huge liability.

YEAH!!! I have been saying for years I don't want average either!!

Enough with average. I want us to actually focus on elite for a change. Time for elite Olinemen, elite RBs, elite WRs, elite TEs, elite DLs, elite LBs, and don't forget about pass rushers. And none of that matters unless we have elite CBs who can't do their job unless we have elite safeties behind them.

Start doing your job Gute.

Height: 6-1.5
Weight: 241
40 Yard Dash: 4.71
10 Yard Split: 1.61
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
Vertical Jump: 34"
Broad Jump: 116"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.26
3-Cone Drill: 7.1

Does anyone meet all these averages for 2020? Nope. Casey Toohill is the closest missing the bench by 5 reps. Malik Harrison is close with his shuttle being a touch slow and no bench. Willie Gay is darn close as well.

Only guys I have found so far to meet all the above criteria.... surprise, surprise... Luke Kuechly, Brian Urlacher

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 14:21

Height: 6-1.5
Weight: 241
40 Yard Dash: 4.71
10 Yard Split: 1.61
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
Vertical Jump: 34"
Broad Jump: 116"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.26
3-Cone Drill: 7.1

Does anyone meet all these averages for 2020? Nope. Casey Toohill is the closest missing the bench by 5 reps. Malik Harrison is close with his shuttle being a touch slow and no bench. Willie Gay is darn close as well.

Only person I have found so far to meet all the above criteria.... surprise, surprise... Luke Kuechly

Mmmhmm....

What I was going to be driving at but lacked combine stats and time. Everyone wants these guys, but they don't exist.

And everybody wants elite players, not average players. But when you don't pick in the top ten twice in the last 30 years, you are going to be missing out on the elite talents, should they even exist. I asked who guys here want, retired first ballot HOF'er got mentioned more than once, only one other person here even gave a current name, and his combine numbers aren't that different from Martinez.

It isn't about being complacent with mediocrity, its about being realistic about what is possible.

A lot of people here wanted Corey Littleton, go look at his measurables, they are dreadful. Good players, especially an instinct driven position like LB are good because of their brain, not how fast they run in a straight line without pads. Nick Kwaitoski is very middling too.

So we couldn't just throw money at the position to fix it how people want it fixed, and a draft prospect doesn't even exist even if we traded our whole draft class to move it. So people just need to be realistic about what we can do.

go pak go wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 14:06

Yoop wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 11:31

well how has average worked out for us? I don't get all this love for average, it's been obvious since the early decline with AJ Hawks speed that average is what has really hurt us in short zone coverage, so much so that we,ve went through a half doz very average safety's attempting to gain more coverage speed, if anything these slow ( average doesn't mean a thing if average is to slow) lbers have been a huge liability.

YEAH!!! I have been saying for years I don't want average either!!

Enough with average. I want us to actually focus on elite for a change. Time for elite Olinemen, elite RBs, elite WRs, elite TEs, elite DLs, elite LBs, and don't forget about pass rushers. And none of that matters unless we have elite CBs who can't do their job unless we have elite safeties behind them.

Start doing your job Gute.

obviously it's impossible to have elite at all positions, thing is we havn't been close to it at ILB in like.... forever, and we see it every year when we struggle as we have at interior coverage, seriously it's why I say the closest we've come to being good there was with Hawk and Burnett, thats why If the choice is one of these average speed ILB's or the big safety, well thats not much of a choice to me, I'll take that safety every day of the week.

Usually, I am all about athletic ability in draft prospects, but ILB is one of the few positions where I make an exception. If I can't get a guy who's the total package, then give me the ready-now player. At this point, even Des Bishop would be a big help.

No more of these project athlete types like Burks, Bradford, Palmer, and what-have-you. Has there ever been a late-bloomer success story at ILB? If you have not figured out the position by college or you are not at least passable right now, it's not gonna happen.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2020 14:21

Casey Toohill is the closest missing the bench by 5 reps.

Never heard of him, but let's pick him up.