Packers Huddle

BF004 wrote: ↑

18 Oct 2021 13:17

Gary $%@# GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But yeah, I'm going to go with Garvin. Clark had a monster game, but he has been dominating lately, so this is not remarkably above par.

Garvin may have largely been the benefactor of fellow DL and coverage, but... he still made the play, you know? And he was not otherwise bad. Sack #2 was largely a product of Fields not throwing the ball away, but Garvin also really hustled for it, without which maybe Fields tucks that and runs for some yardage instead of losing it.

Lowry may have had the strongest case for this of any player, but nobody took him, so....

Labrev wrote: ↑

18 Oct 2021 16:29

But yeah, I'm going to go with Garvin. Clark had a monster game, but he has been dominating lately, so this is not remarkably above par.

Garvin may have largely been the benefactor of fellow DL and coverage, but... he still made the play, you know? And he was not otherwise bad. Sack #2 was largely a product of Fields not throwing the ball away, but Garvin also really hustled for it, without which maybe Fields tucks that and runs for some yardage instead of losing it.

Lowry may have had the strongest case for this of any player, but nobody took him, so....

Yeah I would have given Mean Dean some consideration had he been picked. But Clark killed it. He gets my vote.

Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑

18 Oct 2021 13:28

Yikes, Rasul Douglas graded quite a bit worse than I expected.

Well, that settles it. I will throw my vote to Clark.

Thanks for that @BF004!

I wouldn't necessarily trust PFF grades in making your decision. I assume you watched the game? Trust your own assessment.

YEah, gunna go Clark.

Those sacks at the time he got them were so big.

APB wrote: ↑

19 Oct 2021 07:09

Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑

18 Oct 2021 13:28

Yikes, Rasul Douglas graded quite a bit worse than I expected.

Well, that settles it. I will throw my vote to Clark.

Thanks for that @BF004!

I wouldn't necessarily trust PFF grades in making your decision. I assume you watched the game? Trust your own assessment.

He definitely got bailed out a few times where he left WRs wide open for likely TDs due to wrong assignment but Fields didn't see them. Likely why he got a bad grade.

Overall, they appeared to be "not knowing the playbook" more than technical issues which is good. I loved him overall. One missed tackle and one stupid penalty was his issue but other than that the dude is big, and tackles well. Played with a lot of juice. Seems like a really good candidate to have out there on talented TEs if necessary. I could see a role for him down the stretch if we get healthy again.

I like him more than Black.

I’m gonna go with Clark as well. Dude straight up brought it.

APB wrote: ↑

19 Oct 2021 07:09

Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑

18 Oct 2021 13:28

Yikes, Rasul Douglas graded quite a bit worse than I expected.

Well, that settles it. I will throw my vote to Clark.

Thanks for that @BF004!

I wouldn't necessarily trust PFF grades in making your decision. I assume you watched the game? Trust your own assessment.

Yep, I watched it. That's why I was surprised at Douglas' score; I thought he'd grade around the low 60s.

For me, the grade just confirmed that Clark played well outside of the big sacks. Gary could've gotten my vote if he had splash plays like Clark. Obviously, I'm rooting for Garvin though (hint, hint).

as I said PFF grades are adjusted as and when more evaluation is completed, I remember reading this a while back, heres there explanation.

PFF: Grades from the regular season's halfway point

Jared Serre • WVSports
Staff Writer
@JaredSerre
WVSports.com and the Rivals network has teamed up with PFF, the go-to site for player grades and advanced analytics in both college football and the NFL. We will incorporate PFF data into stories regularly going forward, and one thing you can look forward to each week is a grade for all of West Virginia's players from the previous game by their scale.

In this article, we use the PFF grades to show you how the Mountaineers performed during the first half of the 2021 season.

On every play, a PFF analyst will grade each player on a scale of -2 to +2 according to what he did on the play.

At one end of the scale you have a catastrophic game-ending interception or pick-six from a quarterback, and at the other a perfect deep bomb into a tight window in a critical game situation, with the middle of that scale being 0-graded, or ‘expected’ plays that are neither positive nor negative.

Each game is also graded by a second PFF analyst independent of the first, and those grades are compared by a third, Senior Analyst, who rules on any differences between the two. These grades are verified by the Pro Coach Network, a group of former and current NFL coaches with over 700 combined years of NFL coaching experience, to get them as accurate as they can be.

From there, the grades are normalized to better account for game situation; this ranges from where a player lined up to the dropback depth of the quarterback or the length of time he had the ball in his hand and everything in between. They are finally converted to a 0-100 scale and appear in our Player Grades Tool.

Season-level grades aren’t simply an average of every game-grade a player compiles over a season, but rather factor in the duration at which a player performed at that level. Achieving a grade of 90.0 in a game once is impressive, doing it (12) times in a row is more impressive.

It is entirely possible that a player will have a season grade higher than any individual single-game grade he achieved, because playing well for an extended period of time is harder to do than for a short period, Similarly, playing badly for a long time is a greater problem than playing badly once, so the grade can also be compounded negatively.

Each week, grades are subject to change while we run through our extensive review process including All-22 tape runs and coaching audit, so you may notice discrepancies among grades published in earlier articles compared with those in the Player Grades tool until grade lock each week.

OFFENSE:

PFF grades on the TV copy of the game and while they do have multiple evaluators, they do not wait for the All-22 to post their grades. Then they very rarely change their grades based off an evaluation of the All-22. That's the part that is concerning, especially for WR, DB, and QB grading. Once they hid their raw statistics went behind an enormous pay wall, their grading has become less reliable. Use it, look at it, enjoy it, but don't take it as gospel or any better or worse than other sites. When they have to get grades out within 12 hours of the game starting, they are sacrificing accuracy for speed.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 10:32

PFF grades on the TV copy of the game and while they do have multiple evaluators, they do not wait for the All-22 to post their grades. Then they very rarely change their grades based off an evaluation of the All-22. That's the part that is concerning, especially for WR, DB, and QB grading. Once they hid their raw statistics went behind an enormous pay wall, their grading has become less reliable. Use it, look at it, enjoy it, but don't take it as gospel or any better or worse than other sites. When they have to get grades out within 12 hours of the game starting, they are sacrificing accuracy for speed.

I'd be interested at checking how much the grades actually change during a week, especially after a supposed All-22 review, but not 35$ for a month -interested.

I mean, like you said, grading especially DBs, WRs and QBs comprehensively is simply impossible from the TV pictures. You don't see half the routes run nor how the coverage unfolds. A WR may juke the cleats off a DB off screen. Or a DB can have perfect coverage off screen. A QB may have a wiiiide open option off screen. Et cetera.

Is Andy Herman still doing grades? Haven't ever seen any this year if so. I probably put greatest stock on those for the Packers.

BF004 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 10:53

Is Andy Herman still doing grades? Haven't ever seen any this year if so. I probably put greatest stock on those for the Packers.

Yup. He highlights his top 3 offense and defense each week. He does everyone too but you have to pay for that via Packer Report.

Even if I did have a subscription to Packer Report I wouldn't post those here. That goes against the spirit of supporting a guy like him doing a great service to die hard fans.

go pak go wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 10:57

BF004 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 10:53

Is Andy Herman still doing grades? Haven't ever seen any this year if so. I probably put greatest stock on those for the Packers.

Yup. He highlights his top 3 offense and defense each week. He does everyone too but you have to pay for that via Packer Report.

Even if I did have a subscription to Packer Report I wouldn't post those here. That goes against the spirit of supporting a guy like him doing a great service to die hard fans.

Well I would encourage people to share those tweets though as they come up. I will make a point to go check those out each week then.

BF004 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:02

go pak go wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 10:57

BF004 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 10:53

Is Andy Herman still doing grades? Haven't ever seen any this year if so. I probably put greatest stock on those for the Packers.

Yup. He highlights his top 3 offense and defense each week. He does everyone too but you have to pay for that via Packer Report.

Even if I did have a subscription to Packer Report I wouldn't post those here. That goes against the spirit of supporting a guy like him doing a great service to die hard fans.

Well I would encourage people to share those tweets though as they come up. I will make a point to go check those out each week then.

I post his grades every week in the Game Day Threads after watching his videos.

This week top 3 highest on offense were Jones, Adams and Rodgers.
Top 3 lowest was EVERYONE ON THE OLINE except Jenkins and Patrick.

He hasn't done defense yet. I don't have twitter. He usually doesn't say numerical grades often on his videos unless it's eye popping.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 10:32

PFF grades on the TV copy of the game and while they do have multiple evaluators, they do not wait for the All-22 to post their grades. Then they very rarely change their grades based off an evaluation of the All-22. That's the part that is concerning, especially for WR, DB, and QB grading. Once they hid their raw statistics went behind an enormous pay wall, their grading has become less reliable. Use it, look at it, enjoy it, but don't take it as gospel or any better or worse than other sites. When they have to get grades out within 12 hours of the game starting, they are sacrificing accuracy for speed.

bull &%$@

there 100 plus intern eval guys grade games as there played, then there 10 or so full time staff eval those grades and then adjust accordingly, and since just about every NFL team and plenty of colleges rely and pay for PFF grades that basically proves there pretty reliable, my original point proves true, the grade they give on monday might change by wednesday, once more evaluation is completed.


PFR doesn't adjust, those speedy grades you get on Monday never change, probably why they suck as a reference, how the $%@# can there total pressures be accurate, there as much as 30% diff then PFF, as for assignment stuff, PFR doesn't even try to get that right, at least PFF gives it a shot, that there wrong on occasion is a small price to pay, at least they show some effort to figuring it out.

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:05

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 10:32

PFF grades on the TV copy of the game and while they do have multiple evaluators, they do not wait for the All-22 to post their grades. Then they very rarely change their grades based off an evaluation of the All-22. That's the part that is concerning, especially for WR, DB, and QB grading. Once they hid their raw statistics went behind an enormous pay wall, their grading has become less reliable. Use it, look at it, enjoy it, but don't take it as gospel or any better or worse than other sites. When they have to get grades out within 12 hours of the game starting, they are sacrificing accuracy for speed.

bull &%$@

there 100 plus intern eval guys grade games as there played, then there 10 or so full time staff eval those grades and then adjust accordingly, and since just about every NFL team and plenty of colleges rely and pay for PFF grades that basically proves there pretty reliable, my original point proves true, the grade they give on monday might change by wednesday, once more evaluation is completed.


PFR doesn't adjust, those speedy grades you get on Monday never change, probably why they suck as a reference, how the $%@# can there total pressures be accurate, there as much as 30% diff then PFF, as for assignment stuff, PFR doesn't even try to get that right, at least PFF gives it a shot, that there wrong on occasion is a small price to pay, at least they show some effort to figuring it out.

I don't think PFR grades. They are just a statistical database that decided to tabulate pressures for defense starting in 2018.

And of course every team likely buys PFF. $30 a month for Premium access isn't breaking the Packers bank account.

go pak go wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:08

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:05

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 10:32

PFF grades on the TV copy of the game and while they do have multiple evaluators, they do not wait for the All-22 to post their grades. Then they very rarely change their grades based off an evaluation of the All-22. That's the part that is concerning, especially for WR, DB, and QB grading. Once they hid their raw statistics went behind an enormous pay wall, their grading has become less reliable. Use it, look at it, enjoy it, but don't take it as gospel or any better or worse than other sites. When they have to get grades out within 12 hours of the game starting, they are sacrificing accuracy for speed.

bull &%$@

there 100 plus intern eval guys grade games as there played, then there 10 or so full time staff eval those grades and then adjust accordingly, and since just about every NFL team and plenty of colleges rely and pay for PFF grades that basically proves there pretty reliable, my original point proves true, the grade they give on monday might change by wednesday, once more evaluation is completed.


PFR doesn't adjust, those speedy grades you get on Monday never change, probably why they suck as a reference, how the $%@# can there total pressures be accurate, there as much as 30% diff then PFF, as for assignment stuff, PFR doesn't even try to get that right, at least PFF gives it a shot, that there wrong on occasion is a small price to pay, at least they show some effort to figuring it out.

I don't think PFR grades. They are just a statistical database that decided to tabulate pressures for defense starting in 2018.

lets not mix words OK, PFR records data they determine to be accurate, same as PFF, same as Andy Herman all determine if a pass rush is a hurry, all determine if a DB is charged with missing a tackle, same with other stats they record

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:05

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 10:32

PFF grades on the TV copy of the game and while they do have multiple evaluators, they do not wait for the All-22 to post their grades. Then they very rarely change their grades based off an evaluation of the All-22. That's the part that is concerning, especially for WR, DB, and QB grading. Once they hid their raw statistics went behind an enormous pay wall, their grading has become less reliable. Use it, look at it, enjoy it, but don't take it as gospel or any better or worse than other sites. When they have to get grades out within 12 hours of the game starting, they are sacrificing accuracy for speed.

bull &%$@

there 100 plus intern eval guys grade games as there played, then there 10 or so full time staff eval those grades and then adjust accordingly, and since just about every NFL team and plenty of colleges rely and pay for PFF grades that basically proves there pretty reliable, my original point proves true, the grade they give on monday might change by wednesday, once more evaluation is completed.


PFR doesn't adjust, those speedy grades you get on Monday never change, probably why they suck as a reference, how the $%@# can there total pressures be accurate, there as much as 30% diff then PFF, as for assignment stuff, PFR doesn't even try to get that right, at least PFF gives it a shot, that there wrong on occasion is a small price to pay, at least they show some effort to figuring it out.

Not &%$@ at all.

That PFF SAYS NFL and College teams subscribe does not prove they are reliable. It only proves that PFF says those teams subscribe.

The very rarely changes from Monday to Wednesday. They have even come out and said as much. This is disconcerting as they didn't get the All-22 on Monday. Can you name any grades that changed from Monday to Wednesday?

This isn't about PFR, but PFR doesn't grade, so how can they adjust their grade?

Again with the lack of understanding about pressures... PFF is more liberal in what they OPINION is of a pressure. PFR is more conservative with what their OPINION is of a pressure. A pressure is a subjective stat. How does either show more or less effort to get it right??

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:12

lets not mix words OK, PFR records data they determine to be accurate, same as PFF, same as Andy Herman all determine if a pass rush is a hurry, all determine if a DB is charged with missing a tackle, same with other stats they record

PFF and Andy Herman try to grade each player on every play. PFR does not do this.