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Zero INTs. Below average coverage grade. Very few spark plays.
There’s been a bunch of talk this year bemoaning the trade of Rasul Douglas last year. Hell, I’ve been among those missing him. But I think maybe we’re missing the Ghost of (Rasul Douglas) Christmas Past. Sul isn’t the player he once was as a Packer.
Maybe Gute and Co saw something the rest of us didn’t. Maybe we just caught lightening in a bottle with him and he’s now reverted back to being just a guy we plucked off a practice squad who balled out when given an opportunity.
Whatever the case, it doesn’t appear Douglas would’ve been the missing piece for this defense this year.
Ive been saying that was a great trade. Of all the things people avoid bashing Gutenbumst about they choose to get mad over getting a 3rd round pick for a subpar CB when we were in cap trouble... For the life of me Ill never understand.
we never even came close to replacing his production, and Douglas was lock down good last year, and even now as good as anyone we have besides glass when and if he's healthy, which he rarely is, that was a terrible trade by Gumbust.
The Bills let there starting safeties go to UFA, I think that plays into the decline this season for Douglas.
Trading Douglas and Gutenbumst not doing anything to address his CB room until the 7th round are two separate incidents. Douglas is currently 30 years old and the age CBs start to decline is in their 30s.
Now if we want to talk about mistakes it was wasting our 1st round pick on a backup OT that we turned into a backup OG who has given us minimal impact instead of going and getting the best player on the board at a position of need in Cooper Dejean. That was the most Brian Gutenbumst move ever.
The main flaw with the argument of his present play with Buffalo is, it is true of his play in Buffalo. It does not necessarily follow that it would have been true of his play here.
There are reasons to believe it may have been true here, i.e. age, but I think there are also other considerations, such as the role he is playing for them (CB1) versus here, where when the secondary is at full health, Jaire is matching up with the top receiver.
And while Douglas may be less effective this year than last year, he is still pretty solid. More pertinently, we could have used his better CB play last year in our playoff run, but Gute sold at the deadline likely because he did not foresee the dramatic turnaround that took place.
And, while I think Nixon is a better player than he gets credit for being, we would be getting better play at the position with Douglas even with the decline in his play, and *much* better play than anything we have gotten from Stokes. He's also probably better than Valentine, but it is still better to give Valentine those snaps because he has upside and is young, so the return will make up for it.
“Most other nations don't allow a terrorist to be their leader.”
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
The main flaw with the argument of his present play with Buffalo is, it is true of his play in Buffalo. It does not necessarily follow that it would have been true of his play here.
There are reasons to believe it may have been true here, i.e. age, but I think there are also other considerations, such as the role he is playing for them (CB1) versus here, where when the secondary is at full health, Jaire is matching up with the top receiver.
And while Douglas may be less effective this year than last year, he is still pretty solid. More pertinently, we could have used his better CB play last year in our playoff run, but Gute sold at the deadline likely because he did not foresee the dramatic turnaround that took place.
And, while I think Nixon is a better player than he gets credit for being, we would be getting better play at the position with Douglas even with the decline in his play, and *much* better play than anything we have gotten from Stokes. He's also probably better than Valentine, but it is still better to give Valentine those snaps because he has upside and is young, so the return will make up for it.
agree with most everything, Douglas would amount for us to be better than everyone minus Jaire, and while most players start to decline at 30 years, many CB's still start for teams into there 30's, not only would Douglas have helped last year, he'd be our #1 when Jaire is out this year.
Ive been saying that was a great trade. Of all the things people avoid bashing Gutenbumst about they choose to get mad over getting a 3rd round pick for a subpar CB when we were in cap trouble... For the life of me Ill never understand.
we never even came close to replacing his production, and Douglas was lock down good last year, and even now as good as anyone we have besides glass when and if he's healthy, which he rarely is, that was a terrible trade by Gumbust.
The Bills let there starting safeties go to UFA, I think that plays into the decline this season for Douglas.
Trading Douglas and Gutenbumst not doing anything to address his CB room until the 7th round are two separate incidents. Douglas is currently 30 years old and the age CBs start to decline is in their 30s.
Now if we want to talk about mistakes it was wasting our 1st round pick on a backup OT that we turned into a backup OG who has given us minimal impact instead of going and getting the best player on the board at a position of need in Cooper Dejean. That was the most Brian Gutenbumst move ever.
didn't Cooper go right before our pick? and he's also the #3 slot corner on his team, we all liked him, but we still had question marks with OL and why Gute took Morgan, who will start somewhere on it next year, but there were good CB options right through round 3, IMO there is no such thing as having too many CB's, your losing one to injury (bumps and bruises) in practically every game so ya need starter ability backups too.
sorry Lupe I'll never agree concerning trading Douglas
Trading Douglas and Gutenbumst not doing anything to address his CB room until the 7th round are two separate incidents. Douglas is currently 30 years old and the age CBs start to decline is in their 30s.
I don't even think it takes that long for decline to start at that position. We traded a 29-year old CB and got a 3rd-round draft pick back in exchange. I am with you and have been the entire time. That was highway robbery.
Ideally, when you make a skillful trade like that, your roster is deep enough at the position to absorb it. It was not. Separate issue and the only reason that trade is looked upon poorly. You can't make that one big issue, though.
The main flaw with the argument of his present play with Buffalo is, it is true of his play in Buffalo. It does not necessarily follow that it would have been true of his play here.
There are reasons to believe it may have been true here, i.e. age, but I think there are also other considerations, such as the role he is playing for them (CB1) versus here, where when the secondary is at full health, Jaire is matching up with the top receiver.
And while Douglas may be less effective this year than last year, he is still pretty solid. More pertinently, we could have used his better CB play last year in our playoff run, but Gute sold at the deadline likely because he did not foresee the dramatic turnaround that took place.
And, while I think Nixon is a better player than he gets credit for being, we would be getting better play at the position with Douglas even with the decline in his play, and *much* better play than anything we have gotten from Stokes. He's also probably better than Valentine, but it is still better to give Valentine those snaps because he has upside and is young, so the return will make up for it.
agree with most everything, Douglas would amount for us to be better than everyone minus Jaire, and while most players start to decline at 30 years, many CB's still start for teams into there 30's, not only would Douglas have helped last year, he'd be our #1 when Jaire is out this year.
Back from 2019 but I think the point still stand with some pretty good charts. CBs fall off to mediocrity at 29. They become absolute shells of themselves at 30.
LVN was always going to take time. He was a true sophomore who had never started, split time between edge and interior, and is on his second position coach and DC in as many years. Gotta be patient there. The athletic profile is too good not to at least be Preston Smith successful.
LVN was always going to take time. He was a true sophomore who had never started, split time between edge and interior, and is on his second position coach and DC in as many years. Gotta be patient there. The athletic profile is too good not to at least be Preston Smith successful.
Yeah, I’m with you.
I was only making tongue-in-cheek commentary toward the small contingent who are all too ready to label him a bust.
LVN was always going to take time. He was a true sophomore who had never started, split time between edge and interior, and is on his second position coach and DC in as many years. Gotta be patient there. The athletic profile is too good not to at least be Preston Smith successful.
Yeah, I’m with you.
I was only making tongue-in-cheek commentary toward the small contingent who are all too ready to label him a bust.
I am OK with the approach to land high-end players, but with LVN and Rashan Gary before him, I would still like to see more. If you are going to take 3 years to develop, it better be All-Pro caliber. I will still argue that despite being on the cusp Gary never got there and now LVN is still struggling to contribute consistently, as well. I would still love to spend a high draft pick, one of these years, on a ready-to-go speed rusher. I think Hafley would be able to use that piece effectively in this defense.
LVN was always going to take time. He was a true sophomore who had never started, split time between edge and interior, and is on his second position coach and DC in as many years. Gotta be patient there. The athletic profile is too good not to at least be Preston Smith successful.
Yeah, I’m with you.
I was only making tongue-in-cheek commentary toward the small contingent who are all too ready to label him a bust.
I am OK with the approach to land high-end players, but with LVN and Rashan Gary before him, I would still like to see more. If you are going to take 3 years to develop, it better be All-Pro caliber. I will still argue that despite being on the cusp Gary never got there and now LVN is still struggling to contribute consistently, as well. I would still love to spend a high draft pick, one of these years, on a ready-to-go speed rusher. I think Hafley would be able to use that piece effectively in this defense.
I agree, when we compare production at this stage between Gary, LVN, and say Enegbare who was drafted much later, the performance of the first two pales in that comparison, sure they are better, but not enough.
early teens in round one should produce a late season starter at a minimum, this coaching up stuff for 3 years is kin to dysfunctional coaching or a poor choice draft pick.
we went bigger at edge because we've really been a hybrid 40 front for 3 years IMHO, so the bit smaller speedy edgers probably weren't even considered, was there a good one? the WAthews are far and in between, but agree that's what we sure could use, (maybe Cooper could flop in and out) the more movable players ya have, the more disguises are available, plus it's more fun to watch, fun is my middle name
LVN was always going to take time. He was a true sophomore who had never started, split time between edge and interior, and is on his second position coach and DC in as many years. Gotta be patient there. The athletic profile is too good not to at least be Preston Smith successful.
Yeah, I’m with you.
I was only making tongue-in-cheek commentary toward the small contingent who are all too ready to label him a bust.
I am OK with the approach to land high-end players, but with LVN and Rashan Gary before him, I would still like to see more. If you are going to take 3 years to develop, it better be All-Pro caliber. I will still argue that despite being on the cusp Gary never got there and now LVN is still struggling to contribute consistently, as well. I would still love to spend a high draft pick, one of these years, on a ready-to-go speed rusher. I think Hafley would be able to use that piece effectively in this defense.
Well they should have never taken Gary. The Jeffery Simmons pick should have been a layup. He was a discounted top 5 talent at a position of imediate and long term need. Instead we take Gary in the same season we paid Zadarius and Preston and then got completely run over by the 9ers in the playoffs when a better IDL could have been used next to Kenny.
I used to be on the side of Packers management to always go for the home run with the first pick.
With our poor 1st round performance, I am starting to re-think that (though it could be argued Morgan wasn't a home run pick).
With our Day 2 success rate (especially Rd 2), I am either inclined to get volume by trading back in Rd 1 or look at more NFL ready players rather than RAS guys.
We just seem to under perform in Round 1 the last 20 drafts unless the pick is a quarterback.
For the umpteenth time, this team was never going to take Jeffery Simmons with that PR issue, no way no how.
And at the end of the day, if there are only like one or two other players you can think of who'd have been a better pick, it was probably a fine pick. The board didn't fall in a way that lined up that well with our needs. Gary was just legitimately one of the best available, and again, this team was never going to draft someone who is on tape punching a woman.
LVN, OTOH, more of an argument to go in a different direction, with what was on the board.
“Most other nations don't allow a terrorist to be their leader.”
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
With our Day 2 success rate (especially Rd 2), I am either inclined to get volume by trading back in Rd 1 or look at more NFL ready players rather than RAS guys.
We just seem to under perform in Round 1 the last 20 drafts unless the pick is a quarterback.
And the RAS'iest pick ever in Clay Matthews. I get your point, though. We have really struggled to hit Round 1 picks.
So much reasonable and knowledgeable discourse above, what a fun read.
To those warning against prematurely designating LVN a bust, and using Rashan Gary as a previous example, I agree. Really excited to see if LVN can turn it on over the final 4 games and in the playoffs.
But I also agree with those who expect more out of a top 13 pick than what we've seen out of LVN through the first 30 games. Perhaps bringing back Preston Smith in a new 4-3 defense retarded LVN's progress?
I further agree with those who say, while he is a good player, Gary isn't a great player and probably is not living up to his second contract. However, he may still be a decent pick for where he was drafted.
As for Simmons, I'm with Lupe in that I salivate at the thought of a stud DT to go with Kenny Clark in his prime. And Simmons, Wilkins, and Dexter Lawrence all went right after Rashan. They would all be on their second contracts and Kenny would have probably been allowed to walk after last season instead of giving him a third contract because the cupboard was so bare at the position. And, unfortunately, I have not seen that type of play out of 2022 first round pick Wyatt to date even though as I recall, at age 24, he was supposedly ready to play as soon as he was drafted back in 2022.
However, I agree with Labrev even more that there is/was no way Simmons was getting drafted by the Packers after the video surfaced of him assauling a woman.
Finally, I am fully on board with Go Pack Go's view regarding a potential re-think of the first round pick process. Especially when it comes to a defense that always seems to be lacking talent at one position or another.
I mean other than Jaire and oddly possibly Stokes how many of the top picks have contributed all that much in year 1 (Savage and Quay played, but not very well in their rookie seasons)?
Drafting guys to sit and learn for a year or two may make sense at QB, but personally I'd like 1st round picks to come in and fill a void right away.
I was only making tongue-in-cheek commentary toward the small contingent who are all too ready to label him a bust.
I am OK with the approach to land high-end players, but with LVN and Rashan Gary before him, I would still like to see more. If you are going to take 3 years to develop, it better be All-Pro caliber. I will still argue that despite being on the cusp Gary never got there and now LVN is still struggling to contribute consistently, as well. I would still love to spend a high draft pick, one of these years, on a ready-to-go speed rusher. I think Hafley would be able to use that piece effectively in this defense.
Well they should have never taken Gary. The Jeffery Simmons pick should have been a layup. He was a discounted top 5 talent at a position of imediate and long term need. Instead we take Gary in the same season we paid Zadarius and Preston and then got completely run over by the 9ers in the playoffs when a better IDL could have been used next to Kenny.
agree with every word, also Simmons was young, with no previous issues, and the woman was aggressively insulting his family, he went too far, obviously, but made restitution, and has been saintly since, either he or Lawrence would have been a better choice.
as you've said, the value of DT compared to edge is IMO so much higher, just so few quality DT per draft class, that should have lent a lot weight with that choice, always felt Mike Smith had a love affair with Gary, and Gute appeased him
All things equal, I will always value EDGE above DT, but a truly dominant DT can have more of an impact on a defense. With EDGE, I think you can accomplish more with less. There are only so many unicorns at DT that are truly going to move the needle.
