Packers Huddle

Yoop wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 10:41

Labrev wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 10:08

My ideal at WR = 1 do-it-all player, 1 vertical threat guy, 1 big possession target, 1 shifty/savvy slot guy, and some adequate depth. A diverse collection of different skill-sets all of which are useful in various different situations.

In 2020, we had all of those minus the slot. In 2021, we *literally* had all of those things. For that matter, KC(!) had this sort of set-up last year.

just pull up our Roster compared to KC for both those season, and you can easily see the depth difference at skill position talent, don't even bother with Kelse, though he dominates that short passing part, we had MVS running his go routes, Adams as the go to receiver, and Jones as our short yardage guy .

Err, what am I missing?

1.) Adams > Kelce. Or it's a Push if we are being charitable. Do-it-all stud, check.
2.) MVS = MVS (literally, it's the same guy). Vertical Threat, check.
3.) Cobb > Toney and Harman (Cobb had more WR production than both of them combined), Skyy Moore pfft. Shifty/savvy slot guy, check.

4.) You can take your pick between Lazard and Juju. Both are solid-not-special guys that rely mainly on size rather than great separation. I know you hate Lazard (unlike Rodgers himself) and have "grass is greener" lens with other WRs, but for what it's worth, they were both free agents this year, KC did not bring Juju back and Lazard got more money from his new team than Juju did. To me, it's about even. They're the same guy (big possession target, check).

Where exactly are you seeing some big advantage KC had that we didn't? As far as I'm concerned, our group was about the same if not better.

And this is just pass-catchers, not all offensive weapons. Include RBs, and it's not close: Jones is a bigger playmaker than anyone they have after Kelce, as a RB or receiver; their RB1 barely had more production than Dillon, our RB2.

expect me to think of him as a #2 isn't going to persuade me to, same with Lazard and all these other mid tier receivers we've had.

MVS and Lazard are being paid a lot of money by their new teams to not be WR2s.

Labrev wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 11:04

Yoop wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 10:41

Labrev wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 10:08

My ideal at WR = 1 do-it-all player, 1 vertical threat guy, 1 big possession target, 1 shifty/savvy slot guy, and some adequate depth. A diverse collection of different skill-sets all of which are useful in various different situations.

In 2020, we had all of those minus the slot. In 2021, we *literally* had all of those things. For that matter, KC(!) had this sort of set-up last year.

just pull up our Roster compared to KC for both those season, and you can easily see the depth difference at skill position talent, don't even bother with Kelse, though he dominates that short passing part, we had MVS running his go routes, Adams as the go to receiver, and Jones as our short yardage guy .

Err, what am I missing?

1.) Adams > Kelce. Or it's a Push if we are being charitable. Do-it-all stud, check.
2.) MVS = MVS (literally, it's the same guy). Vertical Threat, check.
3.) Cobb > Toney and Harman (Cobb had more WR production than both of them combined), Skyy Moore pfft. Shifty/savvy slot guy, check.

4.) You can take your pick between Lazard and Juju. Both are solid-not-special guys that rely mainly on size rather than great separation. I know you hate Lazard (unlike Rodgers himself) and have "grass is greener" lens with other WRs, but for what it's worth, they were both free agents this year, KC did not bring Juju back and Lazard got more money from his new team than Juju did. To me, it's about even. They're the same guy (big possession target, check).

Where exactly are you seeing some big advantage KC had that we didn't? As far as I'm concerned, our group was about the same if not better.

And this is just pass-catchers, not all offensive weapons. Include RBs, and it's not close: Jones is a bigger playmaker than anyone they have after Kelce, as a RB or receiver; their RB1 barely had more production than Dillon, our RB2.

expect me to think of him as a #2 isn't going to persuade me to, same with Lazard and all these other mid tier receivers we've had.

MVS and Lazard are being paid a lot of money by their new teams to not be WR2s.

did you even bother to look this stuff up? the chiefs have had 5000 yrds receiving and about 2000 rushing the last 3 seasons, with hill they had 2 receivers with over 1200 yrds in 2020 and 21, and Shuster was there #2 last year just short of a K with Kelce at 1300 and MVS with 670 or so, and the rest with a resume good enough that a DC had to honor it, do you think anyone we've had the last 6 or 7 years as depth or rotating talent compare to Sky Moore, or Toney, who catches 80% of the few targets thrown his way, (bound to increase) and it's the same with all there receivers, there catch rate across the group lats year is about 70%, DC's pay special attention to receivers with catch rates like that, when ya have two receivers over a K it means everyone else is single covered and no over the top support

2020 was our best of the last 3 season and we still had a 1000 yrds less receiving then the Chiefs why you wont acknowledge these simple truths is why we disagree.

Yoop wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 13:19

2020 was our best of the last 3 season and we still had a 1000 yrds less receiving then the Chiefs why you wont acknowledge these simple truths is why we disagree.

Do we care that our receivers caught 48 TD's in 2020 and Kansas City's caught 38? Or just yardage here?

Yoop wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 13:19

did you even bother to look this stuff up? the chiefs have had 5000 yrds receiving and about 2000 rushing the last 3 seasons, with hill they had 2 receivers with over 1200 yrds in 2020 and 21,

I'm not talking about the years they had Hill. You replied to my post where I described what I want at WR, I said that we had the things I want in 2020 and 2021, and I said that the WR group we had those years was similar to what KC had *last* year (i.e. without Hill, but nonetheless good enough to win a SB), not the years before.

and Shuster was there #2 last year just short of a K with Kelce at 1300 and MVS with 670 or so,

Adams 1300, MVS 690 (he had a better year with us in 2020 than with KC last year). The almost 1k comes from Lazard and Tonyan rather than a single receiver. That was our 2020.

Again, let's not overlook our RB stable, much as you're trying to leave it out. KC has not had a playmaker at RB anywhere close to Jones. Our RB2s, Dillon and Jamaal Williams, are better than the RB1s they've had.

do you think anyone we've had the last 6 or 7 years as depth or rotating talent compare to Sky Moore, or Toney, who catches 80% of the few targets thrown his way, (bound to increase) and it's the same with all there receivers, there catch rate across the group lats year is about 70%,

Lol, what the hell have Moore and Toney done? Moore had 250 yards. Toney 125. I notice you didn't share their yardage like you did with the others, just hid behind stupid catch rate (it's easy to have a high catch rate when you're not on the field much and only get thrown to against #4 DBs).

Who did we have that was better? Uhh, Cobb. Equanimeous St. Brown put up more yards as a rookie than Moore did.

DC's pay special attention to receivers with catch rates like that, when ya have two receivers over a K it means everyone else is single covered and no over the top support

No DCs don't give a hot &%$@ about catch rate, they pay attention to guys who are big play threats. MVS helped open up the field because of his speed. DCs didn't care that he dropped a lot of bombs because they didn't want to risk him catching any on them.

NCF wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 14:09

Yoop wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 13:19

2020 was our best of the last 3 season and we still had a 1000 yrds less receiving then the Chiefs why you wont acknowledge these simple truths is why we disagree.

Do we care that our receivers caught 48 TD's in 2020 and Kansas City's caught 38? Or just yardage here?

good question, I think we'd have to look at red zone scoring, and who are catching the TD passes, and I just don't have any more time today to dig for stats, maybe Tomorrow, off the top of my head I would say they are better in the red zone, but I want to know for sure now.

I don't know that it's really worth comparing our skill positions to KC because our WR talent is not the reason why we lost in the playoffs in 2020 and 2021. In fact, if we hadn't made so many errors against Tampa as a team, we probably would have handled KC in the Super Bowl as well. Their O-line was depleted and I don't think their D would have stopped us.

Yoop wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 15:12

NCF wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 14:09

Yoop wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 13:19

2020 was our best of the last 3 season and we still had a 1000 yrds less receiving then the Chiefs why you wont acknowledge these simple truths is why we disagree.

Do we care that our receivers caught 48 TD's in 2020 and Kansas City's caught 38? Or just yardage here?

good question, I think we'd have to look at red zone scoring, and who are catching the TD passes, and I just don't have any more time today to dig for stats, maybe Tomorrow, off the top of my head I would say they are better in the red zone, but I want to know for sure now.

We were over 80% converting TDs in the Redzone in 2020.

Here is a listing of just how historically awesome our 2020 offense was.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/lists/ ... 20-season/

Acrobat wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 16:14

I don't know that it's really worth comparing our skill positions to KC because our WR talent is not the reason why we lost in the playoffs in 2020 and 2021. In fact, if we hadn't made so many errors against Tampa as a team, we probably would have handled KC in the Super Bowl as well. Their O-line was depleted and I don't think their D would have stopped us.

If Kevin King didn’t have such an awful game we are all talking about how undeniably bad Lazard was in that game.

He screwed up a pick play in which Adams scolded him on a would be walk in TD if he just executed properly.

He got absolutely bullied by a DB 4 inches and 30 pounds lighter for an interception.

He ducked a ball on a would be TD on the RPO that would have set up the game tying 2 Pt conversion.

Cheeks.

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 17:17

Acrobat wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 16:14

I don't know that it's really worth comparing our skill positions to KC because our WR talent is not the reason why we lost in the playoffs in 2020 and 2021. In fact, if we hadn't made so many errors against Tampa as a team, we probably would have handled KC in the Super Bowl as well. Their O-line was depleted and I don't think their D would have stopped us.

If Kevin King didn’t have such an awful game we are all talking about how undeniably bad Lazard was in that game.

He screwed up a pick play in which Adams scolded him on a would be walk in TD if he just executed properly.

He got absolutely bullied by a DB 4 inches and 30 pounds lighter for an interception.

He ducked a ball on a would be TD on the RPO that would have set up the game tying 2 Pt conversion.

Cheeks.

And on a day where MVS actually showed up, big time.

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 17:17

Acrobat wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 16:14

I don't know that it's really worth comparing our skill positions to KC because our WR talent is not the reason why we lost in the playoffs in 2020 and 2021. In fact, if we hadn't made so many errors against Tampa as a team, we probably would have handled KC in the Super Bowl as well. Their O-line was depleted and I don't think their D would have stopped us.

If Kevin King didn’t have such an awful game we are all talking about how undeniably bad Lazard was in that game.

He screwed up a pick play in which Adams scolded him on a would be walk in TD if he just executed properly.

He got absolutely bullied by a DB 4 inches and 30 pounds lighter for an interception.

He ducked a ball on a would be TD on the RPO that would have set up the game tying 2 Pt conversion.

Cheeks.

Yeah that game was just bad all around:

- Aaron Jones fumble
- Kevin King hold at the end. That pass would have been incomplete anyway and we would have gotten the ball back.
- Kevin King play and awful coverage call at end of 1st Half.
- Bak being injured and Rodgers having less time than he would have normally had during our comeback.
- The crazy luck on the Chris Godwin catch where Savage made a good play on the ball.
- Not running Dillon enough in the 2nd half
- Missed opportunities in the red zone.


Why do I feel like this is just another version of the Seattle game in 2014 NFCCG? Man the Packers have really blown it in the playoffs in the last decade.

NCF wrote: ↑

19 Jul 2023 08:07

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 17:17

Acrobat wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 16:14

I don't know that it's really worth comparing our skill positions to KC because our WR talent is not the reason why we lost in the playoffs in 2020 and 2021. In fact, if we hadn't made so many errors against Tampa as a team, we probably would have handled KC in the Super Bowl as well. Their O-line was depleted and I don't think their D would have stopped us.

If Kevin King didn’t have such an awful game we are all talking about how undeniably bad Lazard was in that game.

He screwed up a pick play in which Adams scolded him on a would be walk in TD if he just executed properly.

He got absolutely bullied by a DB 4 inches and 30 pounds lighter for an interception.

He ducked a ball on a would be TD on the RPO that would have set up the game tying 2 Pt conversion.

Cheeks.

And on a day where MVS actually showed up, big time.

score doesn't indicate a defensive dominated game, but it was, and we prevailed in every category except ST's and running the ball,(only 16 rush attempts) Rodgers spread the ball around to 9 different receivers, and Scantling had the best game of his career and led all receivers, and we still lost

Acrobat wrote: ↑

19 Jul 2023 08:44

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 17:17

Acrobat wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 16:14

I don't know that it's really worth comparing our skill positions to KC because our WR talent is not the reason why we lost in the playoffs in 2020 and 2021. In fact, if we hadn't made so many errors against Tampa as a team, we probably would have handled KC in the Super Bowl as well. Their O-line was depleted and I don't think their D would have stopped us.

If Kevin King didn’t have such an awful game we are all talking about how undeniably bad Lazard was in that game.

He screwed up a pick play in which Adams scolded him on a would be walk in TD if he just executed properly.

He got absolutely bullied by a DB 4 inches and 30 pounds lighter for an interception.

He ducked a ball on a would be TD on the RPO that would have set up the game tying 2 Pt conversion.

Cheeks.

Yeah that game was just bad all around:

- Aaron Jones fumble
- Kevin King hold at the end. That pass would have been incomplete anyway and we would have gotten the ball back.
- Kevin King play and awful coverage call at end of 1st Half.
- Bak being injured and Rodgers having less time than he would have normally had during our comeback.
- The crazy luck on the Chris Godwin catch where Savage made a good play on the ball.
- Not running Dillon enough in the 2nd half
- Missed opportunities in the red zone.


Why do I feel like this is just another version of the Seattle game in 2014 NFCCG? Man the Packers have really blown it in the playoffs in the last decade.

thanks for refreshing our memory's, I think, actually when ya bring 2014 back up there is a resemblance, but it's double hurt again

Perhaps we can get back to discussing news around the league rather than rehashing the same (unrelated) arguments...?



Anyway, the first domino has fallen. A baseline has been set for Rashan Gary:

Seems relevant. A healthy Gary is a better player IMO, but $ may depend partly on the timing of the contract and Gary's recovery track

Madcity_matt wrote: ↑

19 Jul 2023 14:28

Seems relevant. A healthy Gary is a better player IMO, but $ may depend partly on the timing of the contract and Gary's recovery track

Gary will want more then 17 mil annual, Gary had over 70 total pressures two years ago, and was on pace for even more last year prior to the injury, this guy has never had over 28, the 14 sack season looks great till ya look at pressure count, and imo pressure count matters more because it shows consistence.

I think Gary will get 20 plus

Yoop wrote: ↑

19 Jul 2023 15:31

Madcity_matt wrote: ↑

19 Jul 2023 14:28

Seems relevant. A healthy Gary is a better player IMO, but $ may depend partly on the timing of the contract and Gary's recovery track

Gary will want more then 17 mil annual, Gary had over 70 total pressures two years ago, and was on pace for even more last year prior to the injury, this guy has never had over 28, the 14 sack season looks great till ya look at pressure count, and imo pressure count matters more because it shows consistence.

I think Gary will get 20 plus

I agree.

Yeah, I’d be absolutely shocked if Gary is under 20. 22-24 would be my expectations.

Yoop wrote: ↑

19 Jul 2023 09:38

NCF wrote: ↑

19 Jul 2023 08:07

lupedafiasco wrote: ↑

18 Jul 2023 17:17

If Kevin King didn’t have such an awful game we are all talking about how undeniably bad Lazard was in that game.

He screwed up a pick play in which Adams scolded him on a would be walk in TD if he just executed properly.

He got absolutely bullied by a DB 4 inches and 30 pounds lighter for an interception.

He ducked a ball on a would be TD on the RPO that would have set up the game tying 2 Pt conversion.

Cheeks.

And on a day where MVS actually showed up, big time.

score doesn't indicate a defensive dominated game, but it was, and we prevailed in every category except ST's and running the ball,(only 16 rush attempts) Rodgers spread the ball around to 9 different receivers, and Scantling had the best game of his career and led all receivers, and we still lost

Didn’t the Pack intercept Brady FOUR times that game? And we still lost.

Sounds like a real winner

Evidently Randall Cobb is going to start training camp for the Jets on the Pup list but I don't know what is ailing him.