It isn't even the record. This is the worst the team has looked since at least 2005, and probably 1991.
Week 5 Post-Game: Raiders 17 Packers 13
Moderators: NCF, salmar80, BF004, APB, Packfntk
No because will you be able to say it definitely would have been a td.APB wrote: ↑10 Oct 2023 22:38Defenders will commit pass interference all the time if beat and a TD is imminent. Gonna award TDs for pass interference, too?bud fox wrote: ↑10 Oct 2023 21:44I don't mean a horse collar, I mean for an intentional penalty/foul when it was going to 100% be a td. It would rarely ever happen because it is hard to say its 100% going to be a td, but that one yesterday was an example.musclestang wrote: ↑10 Oct 2023 21:37
That used to be just a regular tackle, I’d be pissed if they started awarding TDs or anything more than they do now for it.
The horse collar tackle is dangerous when a big bodied player grabs it and then lays up on the back of your legs. Peters didn’t even do that.
I don't really care but other sports do it or have more severe penalties etc
That's why it would rarely happen ... there can be no doubt that it would have been a td but for the intentional penalty.
I agree. Over the first three games there were a lot of open receivers, making it easier on Love to complete passes. Unfortunately that hasn't been the case in the last two games for whatever reason. That's on MLF in my opinion. Still, Love needs to play significantly better.AmishMafia wrote: ↑10 Oct 2023 07:14But I didn't see a lot of open WRs against a really poor Raider secondary. One play on the last drive all the WRs ran 4-8 yds and just stopped. Even Aikman said, "I don't know what that was".
Ultimately, it is MLFs responsibility for the team being inspired, motivated, and schemed to be successful. I saw schematic issues. I think for MLF system to work, you have to have a functioning run game. Expect to see the first 3 picks next season to be on the OL and a RB.
I don't know if I mentioned it on this forum or another one back in the day but I wasn't optimistic about the team's chances entering this season. Actually expected them to end up getting closer to receiving the first overall pick than making the playoffs. I wouldn't have any issue with that happening as long as they show some promise to make a run at the postseason once again next year.
Unfortunately I don't like what I'm seeing regarding the development and progression of the young players. Instead of improving over the course of the season they have regressed with opponents having gotten more film on them. That's not promising moving forward.
With that being said it's far too early to make any final evaluation by any means. There's still 12 games left for them to prove they have enough talent to be optimistic about the long term future moving forward.
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musclestang
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It's a box of worms I don't want opened. I guess I'm just old and salty. Life isn't fair, neither is football. Want a touchdown and the other guy is breaking rules? punch it down his throat and cross the goal line anyway.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
Yes he was. Man Rasul Douglas is an incredible outside corner. We should never flirt moving him away from his outside corner spot.
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Crazylegs Starks
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Joe Barry next week: "Hey, our boy Stokes is back! Rasul you're in the slot now."
“We didn’t lose the game; we just ran out of time.”
- Vince Lombardi
- Vince Lombardi
there gonna get Stokes on the field somewhereCrazylegs Starks wrote: ↑11 Oct 2023 12:31Joe Barry next week: "Hey, our boy Stokes is back! Rasul you're in the slot now."
Crazylegs Starks wrote: ↑11 Oct 2023 12:31Joe Barry next week: "Hey, our boy Stokes is back! Rasul you're in the slot now."
I wasn't optimistic about this team's chances this year either but it is way too soon to make a determination on what we have here. Let's hope we see progress as the season goes on. 5 games isn't enough evidence to know.CWIMM wrote: ↑11 Oct 2023 04:19I agree. Over the first three games there were a lot of open receivers, making it easier on Love to complete passes. Unfortunately that hasn't been the case in the last two games for whatever reason. That's on MLF in my opinion. Still, Love needs to play significantly better.AmishMafia wrote: ↑10 Oct 2023 07:14But I didn't see a lot of open WRs against a really poor Raider secondary. One play on the last drive all the WRs ran 4-8 yds and just stopped. Even Aikman said, "I don't know what that was".
Ultimately, it is MLFs responsibility for the team being inspired, motivated, and schemed to be successful. I saw schematic issues. I think for MLF system to work, you have to have a functioning run game. Expect to see the first 3 picks next season to be on the OL and a RB.
I don't know if I mentioned it on this forum or another one back in the day but I wasn't optimistic about the team's chances entering this season. Actually expected them to end up getting closer to receiving the first overall pick than making the playoffs. I wouldn't have any issue with that happening as long as they show some promise to make a run at the postseason once again next year.
Unfortunately I don't like what I'm seeing regarding the development and progression of the young players. Instead of improving over the course of the season they have regressed with opponents having gotten more film on them. That's not promising moving forward.
With that being said it's far too early to make any final evaluation by any means. There's still 12 games left for them to prove they have enough talent to be optimistic about the long term future moving forward.
https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/the-passi ... week-5-219
Well, that wasn’t great. The Packers went to Vegas and laid an egg against a bad Raiders team. After seeing some promising things through the first 4 weeks, it all seemed to come unraveled this week. Watching live, it felt messy and disjointed with very few things to be excited about.
When I went back through and watched the game, I found that I liked what LaFleur was trying to do. With no Aaron Jones, the run game went to a more vertical, at-you approach, with lots of inside zone and duo. And the pass game, well, let’s look at the chart.
It’s a weird one. Jordan Love’s ADOT (Average Depth Of Target) was 8.8 yards, his second lowest of the season (his lowest was 8.2 ADOT against the Falcons in Week 2). If you’ve read anything since the game, I’m sure you’ve heard some variation of this stat: “Love was 2/10 on passes over 5 yards.” While that’s true, it doesn’t illustrate the great divide between the quick game and everything else. The throw chart tells a very specific story: "the LBs are intent on taking away the intermediate middle of the field, so live in the quick game on the edges to neutralize Maxx Crosby, then take calculated shots down the field."
Love attempted only 7 passes over 10 yards, but most of those were well north of 10 yards. He had pass depths of 11 and 13, but the next ones were 30, 34, 41, 45, 49.
Hit the quick stuff, then take calculated shots. Against a Raiders defense with a dominant pass rusher but a secondary that came into the game ranked 29th at opposing QB Rating, I don’t hate the approach. Stay on schedule. Stay in rhythm. Hit the bombs in favorable moments.
I thought Love operated well in the quick game. When targeting 0-10 yards, he was 7/11 (63.6%) for 38 yards. Not exactly Joe Montana, but, for a guy who has struggled with accuracy to the boundary, I thought he was decisive and accurate.
The problem was the deep game, and not all of it was on Love. A couple seemed to be miscommunications on route breaks as opposed to out-and-out misses, while a couple others were nice throws that, unfortunately, weren’t hauled in. The numbers look bad on that front, but I thought it was his best day throwing the deep ball of the year. A low bar to clear to be sure, but a bar cleared nonetheless (in my own mind if nowhere else).
To add to that, the receivers were credited with 3 drops on the day, while Love had 2 throwaways. That brings his adjusted completion % to 67.9%.
Let’s throw a couple others numbers out there then take a look at a play. Per PFF, Love was under pressure on 32.4% of his dropbacks. On those, he was a miserable 3/8 for 18 yards (2.3 YPA). Now the fun part: he was only blitzed on 14.7% of his dropbacks, and on those blitzes he was very good: 4/5 for 41 yards (8.2 YPA).
If we look at those two groups of numbers, we can say that the blitzes didn’t really pressure him (he got the ball out in 2.46 seconds when blitzed), but the 4 man rushes gave him - and the Packers - a lot of issues. Some of that was due to Maxx Crosby looking like a man possessed at times, but it was also due to the Packers receivers difficulty in getting open. Love averaged 3.86 seconds to throw when under pressure, meaning he was was either holding the ball too long or he couldn’t find anyone open. While there were a couple instances when he could have let it rip, most of the issues fell on the receivers simply not getting open.
Alright. Let’s get to the fun stuff.
Play 1: 2nd & 15, 3:27 remaining in the 1st quarter
If you have a play where you’re running a screen to one side and something else to the other side, I will be extremely happy. Running a play where you are running a different screen to each side? Buddy, you will find me levitating. Which is what we have here.
On the right we have a tunnel screen from trips, with Dontayvion Wicks [13] as the #2 stepping back and looking for the throw, while AJ Dillon [28] and Josiah Deguara [81] and the right side of the o-line release to block.
On the left, we have Jayden Reed [11] stepping back to look for the throw while Romeo Doubs [87] and Rasheed Walker [63] release to block.
The decision is made pre-snap based on defensive alignment. With the LBs and secondary tilted to the trips side, Love makes the decision to throw to Reed on the left.
It ends up gaining 7 yards, but it could have gone for more. There’s a blip in the execution, with Walker and Doubs both releasing to block the boundary, when one of them (Walker, most likely) needs to seal the inside.
A really nice design and a pretty good gain that could have been even more effective. I really hope we’ll see this again.
Play 2: 1st & 10, 7:15 remaining in the 3rd quarter
This is the big 77 yard gain to Christian Watson [9] and it comes off a concept we should all be familiar with by now: PA Boot Sail. It is the core passing concept in this offense. And, while its effectiveness has waned over the last year, it can still be an effective play.
What I’ve enjoyed this year is seeing the different ways the Packers have run it. At its core, it’s a bootleg concept that consists of three routes: a deep corner (Sail) route, an intermediate crossing route and a flat route. Sometimes you’ll get a Slam route where an in-line TE initially blocks down before releasing into space (which we get here), but those three main routes comprise the Sail concept. Typically the flat route will come via a TE slicing under the formation at the snap, but here the “flat” route comes in the form of a quick out to the boot side.
I enjoy it because it shows Matt LaFleur is actively looking for ways to keep this concept on their menu, but running it out of nontraditional looks.
To the play itself, the big gain comes at the result of a busted coverage from the Raiders, with both deep defenders to the boot side converging on the intermediate crosser, leaving Watson wide open.
What I like about this from Love is that he sees Watson at all. You rarely see the QB throw the Sail on this concept. It’s usually nothing more than a run-off route, meant to create space for the routes underneath. It can be an alert, where it’s thrown only if the QB sees something pre-snap that tells him it will be open. It will usually be given an initial glance, then quickly moved off. The read on this is usually the intermediate crosser #1, the flat #2, then the Slam or a QB run as the third option.
I like that LaFleur is finding ways to run this and I like that Love saw Watson and was able to get it to him.
I would have liked it more if Watson had been able to hit paydirt, but not everything can be perfect I guess.
Well, that wasn’t great. The Packers went to Vegas and laid an egg against a bad Raiders team. After seeing some promising things through the first 4 weeks, it all seemed to come unraveled this week. Watching live, it felt messy and disjointed with very few things to be excited about.
When I went back through and watched the game, I found that I liked what LaFleur was trying to do. With no Aaron Jones, the run game went to a more vertical, at-you approach, with lots of inside zone and duo. And the pass game, well, let’s look at the chart.
It’s a weird one. Jordan Love’s ADOT (Average Depth Of Target) was 8.8 yards, his second lowest of the season (his lowest was 8.2 ADOT against the Falcons in Week 2). If you’ve read anything since the game, I’m sure you’ve heard some variation of this stat: “Love was 2/10 on passes over 5 yards.” While that’s true, it doesn’t illustrate the great divide between the quick game and everything else. The throw chart tells a very specific story: "the LBs are intent on taking away the intermediate middle of the field, so live in the quick game on the edges to neutralize Maxx Crosby, then take calculated shots down the field."
Love attempted only 7 passes over 10 yards, but most of those were well north of 10 yards. He had pass depths of 11 and 13, but the next ones were 30, 34, 41, 45, 49.
Hit the quick stuff, then take calculated shots. Against a Raiders defense with a dominant pass rusher but a secondary that came into the game ranked 29th at opposing QB Rating, I don’t hate the approach. Stay on schedule. Stay in rhythm. Hit the bombs in favorable moments.
I thought Love operated well in the quick game. When targeting 0-10 yards, he was 7/11 (63.6%) for 38 yards. Not exactly Joe Montana, but, for a guy who has struggled with accuracy to the boundary, I thought he was decisive and accurate.
The problem was the deep game, and not all of it was on Love. A couple seemed to be miscommunications on route breaks as opposed to out-and-out misses, while a couple others were nice throws that, unfortunately, weren’t hauled in. The numbers look bad on that front, but I thought it was his best day throwing the deep ball of the year. A low bar to clear to be sure, but a bar cleared nonetheless (in my own mind if nowhere else).
To add to that, the receivers were credited with 3 drops on the day, while Love had 2 throwaways. That brings his adjusted completion % to 67.9%.
Let’s throw a couple others numbers out there then take a look at a play. Per PFF, Love was under pressure on 32.4% of his dropbacks. On those, he was a miserable 3/8 for 18 yards (2.3 YPA). Now the fun part: he was only blitzed on 14.7% of his dropbacks, and on those blitzes he was very good: 4/5 for 41 yards (8.2 YPA).
If we look at those two groups of numbers, we can say that the blitzes didn’t really pressure him (he got the ball out in 2.46 seconds when blitzed), but the 4 man rushes gave him - and the Packers - a lot of issues. Some of that was due to Maxx Crosby looking like a man possessed at times, but it was also due to the Packers receivers difficulty in getting open. Love averaged 3.86 seconds to throw when under pressure, meaning he was was either holding the ball too long or he couldn’t find anyone open. While there were a couple instances when he could have let it rip, most of the issues fell on the receivers simply not getting open.
Alright. Let’s get to the fun stuff.
Play 1: 2nd & 15, 3:27 remaining in the 1st quarter
If you have a play where you’re running a screen to one side and something else to the other side, I will be extremely happy. Running a play where you are running a different screen to each side? Buddy, you will find me levitating. Which is what we have here.
On the right we have a tunnel screen from trips, with Dontayvion Wicks [13] as the #2 stepping back and looking for the throw, while AJ Dillon [28] and Josiah Deguara [81] and the right side of the o-line release to block.
On the left, we have Jayden Reed [11] stepping back to look for the throw while Romeo Doubs [87] and Rasheed Walker [63] release to block.
The decision is made pre-snap based on defensive alignment. With the LBs and secondary tilted to the trips side, Love makes the decision to throw to Reed on the left.
It ends up gaining 7 yards, but it could have gone for more. There’s a blip in the execution, with Walker and Doubs both releasing to block the boundary, when one of them (Walker, most likely) needs to seal the inside.
A really nice design and a pretty good gain that could have been even more effective. I really hope we’ll see this again.
Play 2: 1st & 10, 7:15 remaining in the 3rd quarter
This is the big 77 yard gain to Christian Watson [9] and it comes off a concept we should all be familiar with by now: PA Boot Sail. It is the core passing concept in this offense. And, while its effectiveness has waned over the last year, it can still be an effective play.
What I’ve enjoyed this year is seeing the different ways the Packers have run it. At its core, it’s a bootleg concept that consists of three routes: a deep corner (Sail) route, an intermediate crossing route and a flat route. Sometimes you’ll get a Slam route where an in-line TE initially blocks down before releasing into space (which we get here), but those three main routes comprise the Sail concept. Typically the flat route will come via a TE slicing under the formation at the snap, but here the “flat” route comes in the form of a quick out to the boot side.
I enjoy it because it shows Matt LaFleur is actively looking for ways to keep this concept on their menu, but running it out of nontraditional looks.
To the play itself, the big gain comes at the result of a busted coverage from the Raiders, with both deep defenders to the boot side converging on the intermediate crosser, leaving Watson wide open.
What I like about this from Love is that he sees Watson at all. You rarely see the QB throw the Sail on this concept. It’s usually nothing more than a run-off route, meant to create space for the routes underneath. It can be an alert, where it’s thrown only if the QB sees something pre-snap that tells him it will be open. It will usually be given an initial glance, then quickly moved off. The read on this is usually the intermediate crosser #1, the flat #2, then the Slam or a QB run as the third option.
I like that LaFleur is finding ways to run this and I like that Love saw Watson and was able to get it to him.
I would have liked it more if Watson had been able to hit paydirt, but not everything can be perfect I guess.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
Yeah I am increasingly seeing Christian Watson's play as a big part of our loss. I said in the past, we can win without Jones or Davante (back when we had both of them) but not without both.
We cannot win with Jones out and Watson doing nothing. That leaves us with nothing in the playmaking department. Jayden Reed gives us a little juice too (not sure why he wasn't more involved this past Monday), but he is still a rookie, and Musgrave has the talent to be another guy who can do that, but is very hit-or-miss at the moment (given that he is also a rookie).
We cannot win with Jones out and Watson doing nothing. That leaves us with nothing in the playmaking department. Jayden Reed gives us a little juice too (not sure why he wasn't more involved this past Monday), but he is still a rookie, and Musgrave has the talent to be another guy who can do that, but is very hit-or-miss at the moment (given that he is also a rookie).
“Most other nations don't allow a terrorist to be their leader.”
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
I don't care what Lafleur or anyone said, imo Watson had inside leverage, Love should have thrown that more inside, Watsons body would have shield the DB and made for a easier catch, Watson might still be favoring that hamstring jmo.Labrev wrote: ↑12 Oct 2023 11:09Yeah I am increasingly seeing Christian Watson's play as a big part of our loss. I said in the past, we can win without Jones or Davante (back when we had both of them) but not without both.
We cannot win with Jones out and Watson doing nothing. That leaves us with nothing in the playmaking department. Jayden Reed gives us a little juice too (not sure why he wasn't more involved this past Monday), but he is still a rookie, and Musgrave has the talent to be another guy who can do that, but is very hit-or-miss at the moment (given that he is also a rookie).
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lupedafiasco
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Watson isn’t ready. He is missing a lot of nuance to his game and on top of that he isn’t catching the tough ones to be a true #1. He got a chance in this one down the field on a difficult catch but he needed to bring it in and instead it hit him in the hands and fell to the ground.
On the final play it was an absolutely dog &%$@ late and underthrown ball but he needed to fight harder as a 6’5 player. He did get pushed a bit, legally might I add, because Love was outside the pocket. He’s gotta fight back.
On the final play it was an absolutely dog &%$@ late and underthrown ball but he needed to fight harder as a 6’5 player. He did get pushed a bit, legally might I add, because Love was outside the pocket. He’s gotta fight back.
Cancelled by the forum elites.
The throw was late, but there was a good reason for it. Love had to evade pressure. He needed to sling it the moment he did though.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
Currently, Watson is a bum. Not aggressive. Always hurt. Drops. Bad routes. And he can't even run fast anymore due to the injuries. People need to stop pretending he is a #1. He isn't and might never be.lupedafiasco wrote: ↑12 Oct 2023 14:52Watson isn’t ready. He is missing a lot of nuance to his game and on top of that he isn’t catching the tough ones to be a true #1.