Packers Huddle

Posted: **27 Apr 2024 08:48**

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑
27 Apr 2024 01:58

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑
26 Apr 2024 20:24

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑
26 Apr 2024 20:18

Yet you claimed he is the same as a 3rd round guy, or we could have gotten the same type of lineman in the 3rd round. 4 teams at the end of the first round had him on their radar there. Maybe, just maybe those teams know more than US.
My thought is that if he isn't ready to win a starting job from Day One then you can gamble on someone who is even more raw but with similar athletic upside on Day Two. I really really like Brandon Coleman and I think he makes more sense as a RT/RG option. I really like the Yale guy whose name I can't spell in my current condition, who needs a lot more development, but who will probably accomplish that development in a similar amount of time. And Kingsley who just went was another guy I see similarly, but higher than the other two.

There's a "ready to play/not ready to play" binary that I'm operating on that makes someone who is not ready to play similar in value to someone else who is not ready to play even if one is "more ready." I think any of them will be ready by year two and not by year one. So a larger project or a smaller project... upside and not ready are the unifying criteria.

Everyone's situation is different. The Packers are a contending team with zero OL depth. I want a C/G and a RG/OT who can compete from Day One. I don't think we got that. Once we didn't get that, I don't like the value in round one. That's all there is to it. It makes perfect sense; there's a method and rationale to my point of view, whether you want to smear it as irrational negativity or not.
I agree with this. The Packers drafted their 1st backup for either guard or RT. If Walker were to get hurt it is possible they would move Jenkins and then he would start at LG. But if no one gets hurt Morgan does not play this year. And lets get real. Morgan is never going to play LT for the Packers unless Walker has a career ending injury. Walker came on strong in the second half of last year, his 2nd year. Walker is at least an average NFL LT and he is highly likely to continue to improve.

Morgan is never going to play RT unless Tom gets hurt or is moved. And Myers is a better center than Morgan is a RT, at least this year - moving Tom to center degrades the entire Oline.

Morgan is never going to play LG unless Jenkins gets hurt, retires of is moved to LT or center. That leaves only 1 position where he could compete, RG and I doubt he wins that battle this season unless someone gets hurt and he plays lights out as a substitute.

Conclusion: The Packers drafted a backup with #25. Long term it might have been the correct thing to do. But the Packers are a good playoff team that needs 2 starters on D. I'd rather have taken a backup/project Olineman in the 3rd round.

“Never” this
“Never” that…
LOLOL love the &%$@ being spewed!
That won’t age well is my prediction!

Morgan is missing 1-1/2” arm length to otherwise have picked in the top 10!
He’s a LT.
Our OL has been revolving door because of injury concerns.
Thom was an undersized emergency stopgap at RT, who showed he is just a damn hard nosed football player!
Jenkins should be on the bench. If Morgan has a good camp he could easily be on the field!
I hate rookie’s on the field as a rule, but next player up!

Posted: **27 Apr 2024 09:01**

JKB wrote: ↑
27 Apr 2024 08:48

TheSkeptic wrote: ↑
27 Apr 2024 01:58

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑
26 Apr 2024 20:24

My thought is that if he isn't ready to win a starting job from Day One then you can gamble on someone who is even more raw but with similar athletic upside on Day Two. I really really like Brandon Coleman and I think he makes more sense as a RT/RG option. I really like the Yale guy whose name I can't spell in my current condition, who needs a lot more development, but who will probably accomplish that development in a similar amount of time. And Kingsley who just went was another guy I see similarly, but higher than the other two.

There's a "ready to play/not ready to play" binary that I'm operating on that makes someone who is not ready to play similar in value to someone else who is not ready to play even if one is "more ready." I think any of them will be ready by year two and not by year one. So a larger project or a smaller project... upside and not ready are the unifying criteria.

Everyone's situation is different. The Packers are a contending team with zero OL depth. I want a C/G and a RG/OT who can compete from Day One. I don't think we got that. Once we didn't get that, I don't like the value in round one. That's all there is to it. It makes perfect sense; there's a method and rationale to my point of view, whether you want to smear it as irrational negativity or not.
I agree with this. The Packers drafted their 1st backup for either guard or RT. If Walker were to get hurt it is possible they would move Jenkins and then he would start at LG. But if no one gets hurt Morgan does not play this year. And lets get real. Morgan is never going to play LT for the Packers unless Walker has a career ending injury. Walker came on strong in the second half of last year, his 2nd year. Walker is at least an average NFL LT and he is highly likely to continue to improve.

Morgan is never going to play RT unless Tom gets hurt or is moved. And Myers is a better center than Morgan is a RT, at least this year - moving Tom to center degrades the entire Oline.

Morgan is never going to play LG unless Jenkins gets hurt, retires of is moved to LT or center. That leaves only 1 position where he could compete, RG and I doubt he wins that battle this season unless someone gets hurt and he plays lights out as a substitute.

Conclusion: The Packers drafted a backup with #25. Long term it might have been the correct thing to do. But the Packers are a good playoff team that needs 2 starters on D. I'd rather have taken a backup/project Olineman in the 3rd round.
“Never” this
“Never” that…
LOLOL love the &%$@ being spewed!
That won’t age well is my prediction!

Morgan is missing 1-1/2” arm length to otherwise have picked in the top 10!
He’s a LT.
Our OL has been revolving door because of injury concerns.
Thom was an undersized emergency stopgap at RT, who showed he is just a damn hard nosed football player!
Jenkins should be on the bench. If Morgan has a good camp he could easily be on the field!
I hate rookie’s on the field as a rule, but next player up!

injury issues ( Bakh) new OL coach with Butkus caused Stenavich to find the best starting combination, eventually help was needed to shore up LT (Walker) who improved as the season played out.

best 5 will play, and that includes Morgan, his versatility imho means he will start some where, likely T

Toms ranked top 5 RT, but the Packers think he's a better center, in reality he plays like David Bakhtiari, has about the same size, hard t imagine moving such a good edge blocker inside, but maybe they will, one thing I'am pretty sure about, Guty didn't sit pat to draft a backup at slot 25, Morgan sure as heck isn't going to be a swing anything, he'll start game one.

Posted: **27 Apr 2024 09:18**

Since the pick of Tony Mandarich #2 overall in 1989, one of the worst busts of all time, GB has only picked OT in the first 3 times:

1996 - John Michaels
2010 - Brian Bulaga
2011 - Derek Sherrod

Interestingly, GB won the Super Bowl 2 of those seasons and finished 15-1 the other.

You could make a case for 1997 - Ross Verba, since he did slide over and play tackle for GB his rookie year.

2024 - Jordan Morgan

Just sayin', its a good omen for 2024.

Posted: **27 Apr 2024 09:55**

Not hating at all on this guy bc I didn’t really know him..and smart people are saying he can start somewhere on the line next year, and that is good…but the tape..at least the highlights we are being shown…seems kind of underwhelming right? Looks like he gets knocked on his back foot really often.

Kid needs some roids.

Posted: **27 Apr 2024 10:12**

Drj820 wrote: ↑
27 Apr 2024 09:55
Not hating at all on this guy bc I didn’t really know him..and smart people are saying he can start somewhere on the line next year, and that is good…but the tape..at least the highlights we are being shown…seems kind of underwhelming right? Looks like he gets knocked on his back foot really often.

Kid needs some roids.

thing is it's not so much getting knocked back, it's the ability to reset and still provide protection, everyone gets knocked off original set at times, I've watched some vids where he tosses rushes to the ground, or completely stone walls excellent edge rushers, most often he plays squared up between he and his QB through out the rush arc, imho everything ya look for with a LT Morgan shows well at.

rarely ever do Packer fans get excited with line picks, specially concerning those not at the top of the draft guru lists, we need to respect the depth of this OL draft class, Morgan imo would have went higher in a more normal class of OL talent, plus we had more QB's go top 12 then ever before in my memory.

Posted: **27 Apr 2024 10:14**

Drj820 wrote: ↑
27 Apr 2024 09:55
Not hating at all on this guy bc I didn’t really know him..and smart people are saying he can start somewhere on the line next year, and that is good…but the tape..at least the highlights we are being shown…seems kind of underwhelming right? Looks like he gets knocked on his back foot really often.

Kid needs some roids.

That is funny because the scouting reports rave about his footwork and anchor

Posted: **27 Apr 2024 13:16**

go pak go wrote: ↑
27 Apr 2024 10:14

Drj820 wrote: ↑
27 Apr 2024 09:55
Not hating at all on this guy bc I didn’t really know him..and smart people are saying he can start somewhere on the line next year, and that is good…but the tape..at least the highlights we are being shown…seems kind of underwhelming right? Looks like he gets knocked on his back foot really often.

Kid needs some roids.
That is funny because the scouting reports rave about his footwork and anchor

The scouting reports have plenty of commentary on his footwork putting him in some bad positions and oversetting...

sounds like a lot of people think the anchor issues that show up on tape are more fundamentals and technique related than strength related. But yes, he gets knocked back a ton, even on successful blocks. There's no denying that from the tape.

Posted: **27 Apr 2024 14:06**

Sam Seale on Jordan Morgan: "a lot of people are saying he's not strong, but i can show you some film of him locking guys up and moving them. And hopefully he gets stronger here"

This speaks to our conversation: one, an acknowledgement that people are questioning the strength--indicating that maybe those of us pointing out his knock-backs are not in fact making things up. Two, an indication that he does have strength, but that there might be other issues causing those questions, as many analysts have speculated and I have stated.

Posted: **27 Apr 2024 14:31**

go pak go wrote: ↑
27 Apr 2024 10:14

Drj820 wrote: ↑
27 Apr 2024 09:55
Not hating at all on this guy bc I didn’t really know him..and smart people are saying he can start somewhere on the line next year, and that is good…but the tape..at least the highlights we are being shown…seems kind of underwhelming right? Looks like he gets knocked on his back foot really often.

Kid needs some roids.
That is funny because the scouting reports rave about his footwork and anchor

Ha?

Posted: **29 Apr 2024 11:21**

Posted: **29 Apr 2024 11:31**

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑
29 Apr 2024 11:21

These are two bad clips. But even the "good" plays I saw, he has slow feet and doesn't extend his arms (a priority considering how short they are). I really didn't and don't like this pick.

Posted: **29 Apr 2024 11:52**

Yeah the Washington (Trice) game was universally agreed upon to be his worst. Fennell crunches tape; he isn't responding and commenting just on the two clips he tweeted--just demonstrated the points.

The sets and the hands are a work in progress.

I don't think his feet look "slow" or see many others say that--since I dunno if I'd recognize slow feet if I tripped over them. But I do think he gets himself into tough positions where the inside lane or his chest are wide open for a power countermove

Trice, by the way, is a 3rd round edge defender pick whose draft stock was hinged on the fact that he only wins with power and not speed or refined pass rush plans, and that in the NFL, he won't be strong or powerful enough to win that way. The Falcons bet a 3rd rounder that he can win that way. 31 teams didn't bet a top-2 round pick that he could.

If a power rusher whose profile is debatable to beat NFL tackles made Morgan look this vulnerable to power, then he needs work before we can expose him to verified NFL power rushers with a plan of attack. That's all I'm saying. All the problems are the kinds of things that are fixable--technique for sets and hands, overall strength improvements. But in my opinion, it will take more time than the "NFL ready tackle" assessments that proliferated would have a lot of us believe.

It'll be interesting seeing what the Packers do with their guys and watching as the competitions play out.

Posted: **29 Apr 2024 14:39**

Didn't see anyone post the McGinn post draft on him:

Rd. 1/Pk. 25.
Height: 6-5.

Weight: 311.

40: 5.07.

Wonderlic: 11

Hometown: Marana, Ariz.

Fact/stat: The seventh offensive lineman selected. Suffered a torn ACL in November 2022. His arm length (32 7/8 inches) was the shortest of the top 15 tackles; his hand size (10 7/8) was the third largest.

NFC scout: “He’s a starter athletically but there’s an inconsistency with his playing style. Sustainability and toughness and finish and all that &%$@. He’s got pride. I can’t say he doesn’t.”

NFC scout: “I have (Taliese) Fuaga rated higher but I do like Jordan. Athletic kid. He came off an ACL this year. I was hoping to see a jump in his play but didn’t see that as much. He’ll be a starter possibly. I see him early as a swing tackle. He’s athletic; he’s just got to put it all together. You’d like to see him be more physical.”

AFC scout: “He’s pretty good. He is the most finesse of all the top guys. I don’t think he’s not tough; he’s just a finesse player. Flexible, good bender. He can move. He’s light on his feet. He plays like a left tackle just in terms of pass pro. His run blocking needs to improve. He’s really smart with high character. He can probably play all five (positions). At minimum, he can play four of the five, so you’re talking about a guy that’d be extremely valuable on game day. He has a chance to be a later first (round) pick. If you got him in the second you’re doing back flips.”

AFC scout: “Good kid. He’ll play. Good athlete. He’s in my top 10 offensive linemen.”

AFC scout: “He’s all right.”

AFC scout: “He’s a foot athlete. Moves his feet well, moves around well. He isn’t real physical. He’s more like Paris Johnson. Excellent pass blocker, adequate run blocker. Natural left tackle. He’ll be best in a zone (scheme). Not as strong or nasty as the other top guys. Alex Gibbs would love him. He gets to the second level and downfield. What he is, he’s a technician with nice feet. He’s probably a second-round pick. Remember that guy from Pittsburgh (Brian O’Neill) who was drafted by the Vikings? He had no strength at all. People just bounced him around. That’s who this guy is. He has the feet.”

AFC scout: “Good kid with a quiet demeanor. Liked and respected by his teammates. Not a vocal leader. Hard worker in the weight room. Has passion for the game. Adequate toughness.”

NFC scout: “He’ll be a steady starter. Has 11-inch hands. Good athlete.”

NFC scout: “He’s as athletic as can be. Light on his feet. Technique-sound, positions easy. He can pull. He can run. Not a powerful guy but he works at it. In pass pro he can mirror guys. He reminded me of Christian Darrisaw.”

AFC scout: “People will start him off at left tackle but maybe ship him inside ultimately. In today’s football, he probably is (a guard).”

Posted: **29 Apr 2024 14:48**

So that clip is one of the 2 sacks he ever gave up? Let’s watch the 800+ other snaps before we jump to any conclusions. It’s almost like he’s fast enough and just sets up too far back, making him susceptible to counters. That’s correctable and better than getting burned around the outside. Needs to study his opponents better.

Posted: **29 Apr 2024 15:02**

lake shark wrote: ↑
29 Apr 2024 14:48
So that clip is one of the 2 sacks he ever gave up? Let’s watch the 800+ other snaps before we jump to any conclusions. It’s almost like he’s fast enough and just sets up too far back, making him susceptible to counters. That’s correctable and better than getting burned around the outside. Needs to study his opponents better.

I don't think anyone other that ever-pessimist wally has indicated in any way that his issues aren't correctable or that his ceiling isn't pretty high.

The debate is how much work needs to be done and how long it will take to be a starting caliber lineman.

And my personal sense that his versatility is a bit overstated. He's got a tackle's body to me all day (aside from the arms)
but that's more an "unknown" not a demonstrated weakness. The hands and the pass sets are demonstrated in a LOT of film as a weakness. And the strength is frequently questioned.

Strength, hands, and pass sets are correctable. But not everything correctable gets corrected, or else there wouldn't be a scarcity of NFL quality players. I think there's a lot more projection in this pick than the consensus reaction seems to indicate. That's ok, but it's the basis of my ambivalence toward the choice.

Posted: **30 Apr 2024 08:40**

Posted: **27 Jun 2024 11:20**

wrote: And there's no amount of, like, tweets and arguments that will make me feel like I should reconsider a well-considered opinion

Nice. I love it when fans embrace the open-minded approach to scouting.

Hands are super important and are definitely an area for improvement in Jordan Morgan. NFL coaching can address that
The fans harping about arm length don't really appreciate HOW the Packers teach their OL to shoot their hands 2nd, not first. They invite the DL into their chests and then lock on, lift the DLs arms up and stymie the pass rush. Watch Bak do it, nobody better at literally dis-arming a pass rusher.
But ya gotta have LT feet to make that work and Morgan has LT feet per the majority of comments, including from Gutekunst

Some teams implore their OL to shoot first, and in that case, arm length is more critical. But in GB under Steno & Butkus its not as much of a concern given their preferences on technique.

Will this change anybody's opinion on Jordan Morgan's ability to become a Top LT in Titletown ?
Of course not.

.

Posted: **27 Jun 2024 15:56**

BSA wrote: ↑
27 Jun 2024 11:20

wrote: And there's no amount of, like, tweets and arguments that will make me feel like I should reconsider a well-considered opinion
Nice. I love it when fans embrace the open-minded approach to scouting.

This snippet completely misses the point of the quoted text, though.

“Tweets and arguments” refers to the fact that I won’t change my mind based off of internet amateurs and small sample sizes.

“A well-considered opinion” indicates that the open minded approach to scouting has already been undertaken. Which includes a fuller sample size of the internet clips not just the bad ones or the good ones used to make an argument.

You also left out the last line: “I simply, now, will watch and hope.” This gives context that it is not tweets and arguments that will change my mind but watching his play, indicating a still-open mind, but henceforth based on results, not on internet chatter. That pairs with the numerous times I mentioned that I am an amateur, I defer to the professionals but still have my own opinions, that I may be wrong, and even that I hope I’m wrong.

And that post comes from a post AFTER I had already outlined my exact sources that helped me assemble an opinion. For instance:

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑
26 Apr 2024 12:40
I just want to say that I arrived at all of these conclusions before listening to Herman at all for the draft.

I'm basing it on Wahle and Uglem's film breakdown videos... Jim Nagy (positive), and lots of clips I keep seeing on twitter; Dane Brugler's The Beast; The PFF draft guys, The Ringer draft guys, and The Athletic's other football guys (Mays and Tice)

I also later quoted from some of those sources to show that the things I found concerning were based on evaluations of people I trust.

So really an entirely out-of-context quote and response that pulls literally the opposite takeaway of what a fuller picture of the conversation shows

But nice insight about shooting hands. Those are the kinds of things I don’t know.

Posted: **28 Jun 2024 11:19**

YoHoChecko wrote: ↑
27 Jun 2024 15:56
“A well-considered opinion” indicates that the open minded approach to scouting has already been undertaken

Got it, thx
In my view, a truly open-minded approach remains open-ended and continues to take in new information.
My take from your comment was that you feel that you've already completed the open-minded portion and are now closed.
That didn't make a lot sense to me, so thanks for the added illumination

In some of the posted clips, you can see Morgan has already been trained in the "shoot 2nd" tactics, you'll see his arms at his side, bouncing in rhythm with his feet as he's awaiting the DE's punch. But you also see that his hands are late in reacting to that punch and that gets him into trouble. I think OL coaches can clean that up, but it may take some time as you noted earlier.

Its way too soon to slot everybody on the OL, but I am guessing an OL of Morgan-Jenkins-Tom-Rhyan-Wallace might end up being the winner
There are 3-4 other alignments that are equally compelling and I feel like this is the most "unsettled" the OL has been in awhile.
.

Posted: **28 Jun 2024 11:35**

I'm putting it out there that I don't see a 4 position turnover on the line. I see 2 a 2 position turnover most likely.

Packers Huddle

Jordan Morgan, OL, Arizona 2024 1st Round Pick, #25

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