Future of political talk on the forum

[YoHoChecko]

I say continue with it if you want. But I'd encourage every person who participates in it to make a HIGH priority to be a reconciler with each other person. Find ways to agree with each other and encourage each other before you hash out the other stuff. First and foremost, we're all creations made in God's image and we need to GIVE respect to each other - unless the other is a Bear fan. (Just kidding!)

:-)

Adorable optimism

[texas]

A complete and utter misrepresentation of what the Podium was. It was a right echo chamber where almost anything that was center left was chased away through very personal attacks, condescension, name calling, and mockery. There was rarely ever any real debate or discussion, but almost exclusively a thump your chest acknowledgement of "greatness." The biggest problem is some treat this as semi-anonymous and completely hide behind it while others have fully bared their identities to make for a more inclusive community. In doing this there have been attacks using information about people's personal lives. While some might believe that the old Podium was fine and dandy, it was far from it.

You were rarely in the Podium. This is not how I or others viewed it.

If it's true that people were sort of doxxed, then that is wrong, but I can't recall any instances of that (not saying there weren't, but I don't remember anything that jumps out at me).

It just seems more and more like center-left people on here are just offended by debate that can get a little bit lively, and thus want it shut down for everyone (or possibly because their viewpoints are regularly defeated both from the right and the left, but I honestly don't think this), whereas the people who were posting in there anyway would rather continue to do so but also wouldn't be horribly disappointed if it stays away.

Regardless, the argument of removing it due to someone taking offense to the debate in there is irrelevant because that person can just simply choose not to go in there. The argument that it spills over does have some merit, but ultimately seems overblown. Pckfn, you're going to sense animosity with or without a podium because the way you debate can be uncharitable and annoying. I'd never try to ban you though.

Thus, it really seems like the only issue is the mods' workload.

[Pckfn23]

I was in the podium for years. Stepped away 3 years ago because of mockery and insults. Only to go back in for 1 topic in 2018 and have an utterly personal insult directed at my personal life thrown in my face. I never posted in there again. The atmosphere drove me completely away.

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with center left people themselves, but how those ideas and then those people were treated. It has NOTHING to do with center left people being able to hold their own in a debate and back up their opinions.

This is not in any sense about taking offense to the debate. That wasn't even remotely mentioned or insinuated. It is the atmosphere of condescension, mockery, and insults that is the issue, not any one person or peoples or their feelings.

Do you honestly believe yoop is the only center left person on this website? He was the only regular poster in the Podium. Everyone else was driven away. Some came back here and there, but sparingly. The cesspool of a forum was not conducive to actual, real conversation about the issues of the day. It's unintended purpose because an echo chamber of chest thumping and brow beating until any differing opinions left. They would resurface only to be beat down again.

Don't lie to yourselves and say you encouraged open and honest, civil debate. That's simply a lie.

[Pckfn23]

The very fact that the Podium was too much to moderate flies right in the face of the assertion that the Podium was open, honest, and civil.

@texas what is this lively conversation you keep talking about?

[Gunzaan]

Most of the above just sounds like a complete fabrication of the truth.

Edit: I will add that perhaps you saw things that way. It very well could be how YOU view things. You are very sensitive about certain topics and you do have a well earned reputation that won’t just disappear because of a few months of chilling out a bit. People probably are guilty of replying to you in a more aggressive manner - I know I do.

[Drj820]

I was in the podium for years. Stepped away 3 years ago because of mockery and insults. Only to go back in for 1 topic in 2018 and have an utterly personal insult directed at my personal life thrown in my face. I never posted in there again. The atmosphere drove me completely away.

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with center left people themselves, but how those ideas and then those people were treated. It has NOTHING to do with center left people being able to hold their own in a debate and back up their opinions.

This is not in any sense about taking offense to the debate. That wasn't even remotely mentioned or insinuated. It is the atmosphere of condescension, mockery, and insults that is the issue, not any one person or peoples or their feelings.

Do you honestly believe yoop is the only center left person on this website? He was the only regular poster in the Podium. Everyone else was driven away. Some came back here and there, but sparingly. The cesspool of a forum was not conducive to actual, real conversation about the issues of the day. It's unintended purpose because an echo chamber of chest thumping and brow beating until any differing opinions left. They would resurface only to be beat down again.

Don't lie to yourselves and say you encouraged open and honest, civil debate. That's simply a lie.

This is called freedom. You were active somewhere, the kitchen got too hot for you...so you left.

Everyone else seemed to carry on.

Yoop obvious likes the fight, I respect that.

Just because it was too spicy for you, doesn’t mean it was for everyone else.

I can remember an entire flock of people from last year that never show up like the German panzer who left bc they felt written off by people, and it had absolutely nothing to do with the podium.

If you like the fire, come play in it. If you don’t, don’t play in it. It’s called freedom.

[texas]

Nothing about what you just wrote dispels the notion that the disagreement is about different peoples' definitions of what is "too extreme", and the easy solution for that is what it always is: simply stay away if you don't like it. Don't try to ban it for everyone else who has no problem with it (many such people). There are plenty of leftists and Trump haters who posted in there regularly.

Again, this is a different argument from spillover. The spillover argument is valid (but in my opinion overblown), whereas this one has an easy and fair solution.

[texas]

I can remember an entire flock of people from last year that never show up like the German panzer who left bc they felt written off by people, and it had absolutely nothing to do with the podium.

Wait really? I always liked that guy's posts. Tell him to come back. Now we have a "like" button so he won't feel written off anymore.

[texas]

And honestly it's not hard to keep things separate in separate forums. I used to beat the $%@# out of Waldo in the Podium when I started posting here, but in the normal forum me and him have no problems. Same thing sort of with yoop.

[salmar80]

Just to get this straight:

There would be no unlimited freedom to "inflammatory" or "too lively" talk on ANY version of a possible new podium on this site.

Any discussion would have to follow at least current forum rules, maybe more, and would be modded. Your gov't luckily can't limit your freedom of speech, but we mods and admins sure can and will. While we are housing a community that we listen to eagerly, it's still our house, our rules, and we simply do not want "a too hot kitchen" in our house.

If you want a political forum without such benevolent tyranny, the only option we are offering is the service of setting up a political forum at a separate web address. You could decide upon rules (or lack thereof) and mods yourselves and have at it. We could even sticky a link to it in the Chatter.

I'm frankly surprised that idea hasn't gotten any support. It would likely still attract the same, familiar posters. Only trouble would be one more bookmark and click to get to it.

[Pckfn23]

I was in the podium for years. Stepped away 3 years ago because of mockery and insults. Only to go back in for 1 topic in 2018 and have an utterly personal insult directed at my personal life thrown in my face. I never posted in there again. The atmosphere drove me completely away.

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with center left people themselves, but how those ideas and then those people were treated. It has NOTHING to do with center left people being able to hold their own in a debate and back up their opinions.

This is not in any sense about taking offense to the debate. That wasn't even remotely mentioned or insinuated. It is the atmosphere of condescension, mockery, and insults that is the issue, not any one person or peoples or their feelings.

Do you honestly believe yoop is the only center left person on this website? He was the only regular poster in the Podium. Everyone else was driven away. Some came back here and there, but sparingly. The cesspool of a forum was not conducive to actual, real conversation about the issues of the day. It's unintended purpose because an echo chamber of chest thumping and brow beating until any differing opinions left. They would resurface only to be beat down again.

Don't lie to yourselves and say you encouraged open and honest, civil debate. That's simply a lie.

This is called freedom. You were active somewhere, the kitchen got too hot for you...so you left.

Everyone else seemed to carry on.

Yoop obvious likes the fight, I respect that.

Just because it was too spicy for you, doesn’t mean it was for everyone else.

I can remember an entire flock of people from last year that never show up like the German panzer who left bc they felt written off by people, and it had absolutely nothing to do with the podium.

If you like the fire, come play in it. If you don’t, don’t play in it. It’s called freedom.

This is not how we build a community, "if you don't like it, don't participate." There is zero $%@# reason anyone should be able to personally insult someone because of the personal information they shared to make this a more inclusive community. Why do you believe mockery and insults build a better community?

[APB]

And honestly it's not hard to keep things separate in separate forums. I used to beat the $%@# out of Waldo in the Podium when I started posting here, but in the normal forum me and him have no problems. Same thing sort of with yoop.

As I recall, Waldo gave to you just as well as you gave it to him. You’re both astute debaters and well able to convey your points with quality writing and reasoning. Slow your roll on the self back-patting...

To Pckfn23’s point, he’s correct...to a point. There was much of what he describes. However, the brow beating and rudeness came from both sides and to portray it as one-sided is completely false. There came a point when the left center folks started drifting away leaving the bulk of left sided debate to a overworked few. Eventually it became a wildly heated Yoop and a few passers-by thus the “echo chamber” effect. At least that’s how I recall it evolving.

To the point of reopening a sub-forum for political discussion: yes, a main concern is Mod workload. I was a frequent poster in the old Podium and took on a majority or the Mod work once JJ passed. I didn’t mind it, at first, because I was typically tied into the conversations anyway. However, it did eventually work its way to a point where the majority of my time on the site was spent cleaning up pages of conversation in the Podium that got out of hand while I was off-line.

Most of the Mods didn’t frequent the Podium so it wasn’t right for them to have to dedicate time for something they held little interest in. We did, collectively, make an effort at one point to be more involved but that only held for a short period, wholly expected if you’re not vested in the conversation. This is partly the reason we are entertaining the idea of Podium specific mods should we move forward with this.

In truth, there were only a few posters who regularly turned the Podium into what P23 lovingly refers to as a cesspool of debate. Those days, and those behaviors, are absolutely over and will not be tolerated here. We have the ability with this new site software to suspend sub-forum privileges - and that’s exactly what they are - for hours or indefinitely and have used it. We prefer not to, of course, but we won’t hesitate if the poster‘s behavior warrants such action. That said, I do believe there is a group here capable of maintaining spirited but respectful debate...so long as those few posters are kept in check.

The conversation here in Cheesehead Chatter is being closely monitored and so far it seems to be working. The Mods are discussing whether to expand the discussion to other socially impactful topics but have not yet come to a consensus. The conversation in this very thread has been helpful, though. To that, I offer you all a word of thanks.

[Pckfn23]

Nothing about what you just wrote dispels the notion that the disagreement is about different peoples' definitions of what is "too extreme", and the easy solution for that is what it always is: simply stay away if you don't like it. Don't try to ban it for everyone else who has no problem with it (many such people). There are plenty of leftists and Trump haters who posted in there regularly.

Again, this is a different argument from spillover. The spillover argument is valid (but in my opinion overblown), whereas this one has an easy and fair solution.

Why are insults and mockery necessary? Why do you feel that needs to be part of it? There were not plenty of leftists and Trump haters that regularly posted in there. There was 1. There were a few others that would do fly bys.

It is a different argument, but one linked to spillover. With the continued mockery, insults and condescension, it is bound to lead to more spillover.

[Pckfn23]

To APBs point, I think some socially relevant and football related topics can and should be discussed.

[Drj820]

I was in the podium for years. Stepped away 3 years ago because of mockery and insults. Only to go back in for 1 topic in 2018 and have an utterly personal insult directed at my personal life thrown in my face. I never posted in there again. The atmosphere drove me completely away.

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with center left people themselves, but how those ideas and then those people were treated. It has NOTHING to do with center left people being able to hold their own in a debate and back up their opinions.

This is not in any sense about taking offense to the debate. That wasn't even remotely mentioned or insinuated. It is the atmosphere of condescension, mockery, and insults that is the issue, not any one person or peoples or their feelings.

Do you honestly believe yoop is the only center left person on this website? He was the only regular poster in the Podium. Everyone else was driven away. Some came back here and there, but sparingly. The cesspool of a forum was not conducive to actual, real conversation about the issues of the day. It's unintended purpose because an echo chamber of chest thumping and brow beating until any differing opinions left. They would resurface only to be beat down again.

Don't lie to yourselves and say you encouraged open and honest, civil debate. That's simply a lie.

This is called freedom. You were active somewhere, the kitchen got too hot for you...so you left.

Everyone else seemed to carry on.

Yoop obvious likes the fight, I respect that.

Just because it was too spicy for you, doesn’t mean it was for everyone else.

I can remember an entire flock of people from last year that never show up like the German panzer who left bc they felt written off by people, and it had absolutely nothing to do with the podium.

If you like the fire, come play in it. If you don’t, don’t play in it. It’s called freedom.

This is not how we build a community, "if you don't like it, don't participate." There is zero $%@# reason anyone should be able to personally insult someone because of the personal information they shared to make this a more inclusive community. Why do you believe mockery and insults build a better community?

Ha I’m not saying those things should be allowed, im saying if you don’t like something...you don’t have to participate. Others seemed to like it. Reminder: I just read it, I didn’t jump in much. I’m just saying if enough people are saying they liked it, and you didn’t. You have the freedom to not participate..and others who do like it should be allowed to participate. I’m not calling for some sort of Wild West. Just saying the kitchen literally seemed to hot for your taste (based on this thread) and it wasn’t for others...so do what I did and just read and laugh and jump in when you want. Or don’t read.

Like I said earlier, everything about the podium that causes fights plays out in milder forms in other parts of the forum, because politics is ideology and worldview, and worldview isn’t just limited to politics. It doesn’t take a podium to get fights started around here, just look at any game day thread from last year

[BF004]

I think what was most frustrating is on occasions we did have a few good conversations. And a select few very frequent posters would always jump in with mockery or rehashing old topics or name calling. Many times the leveler headed posts just get drowned out by the same old garbage from people who just want to shout their opinions louder than others.

[texas]

Why are insults and mockery necessary? Why do you feel that needs to be part of it?

I don't know how else to say it: what one person views as an insult or mockery, another can view as good-natured smack talk, and another could view it as regular discourse. And another person could view it as verbal assault. I'm closer to the Richie Incognito end and you are saying that you are apparently closer to the Jonathan Martin end (which I don't believe btw because I have seen you dish it out (and there's nothing wrong with that)).

There were not plenty of leftists and Trump haters that regularly posted in there. There was 1. There were a few others that would do fly bys.

Yoop, Charon, HeavyD were pretty regular contributors. Salmar is a moderator and he's center-left afaik. That's already 4. Also Trudge.

It is a different argument, but one linked to spillover. With the continued mockery, insults and condescension, it is bound to lead to more spillover.

Technically yes, but the spillover is too small to worry about, or at least it has been imo.

[Pckfn23]

Why are insults and mockery necessary? Why do you feel that needs to be part of it?

I don't know how else to say it: what one person views as an insult or mockery, another can view as good-natured smack talk, and another could view it as regular discourse. And another person could view it as verbal assault. I'm closer to the Richie Incognito end and you are saying that you are apparently closer to the Jonathan Martin end (which I don't believe btw because I have seen you dish it out (and there's nothing wrong with that)).

That's simply a cop out. Most human beings are very aware what an insult or mockery is especially towards others than they pretty much do not know. Even with other they do know they understand what that line is. The reason we can Raz people is because we know them. You yourself have acknowledged this is a semi-anonymous place.
To say it is so much different between people is straight up bologna. You know it and we all know it. Common decency is not that hard to understand or abide by.

There were not plenty of leftists and Trump haters that regularly posted in there. There was 1. There were a few others that would do fly bys.

Yoop, Charon, HeavyD were pretty regular contributors. Salmar is a moderator and he's center-left afaik. That's already 4. Also Trudge.

Yoop is the only regular. Charon and Salmar contributed now and then. HeavyD is definitely not a leftist. You can disregard reality, but the fact is that the members of the echo chamber chased off most opposing viewpoints through condescension, mockery and insult. It happened, it is not some fabrication. In the last few years it became mob rule.

It is a different argument, but one linked to spillover. With the continued mockery, insults and condescension, it is bound to lead to more spillover.

Technically yes, but the spillover is too small to worry about, or at least it has been imo.

Only in the eyes of those who don't give a &%$@ about the community. More than a few have mentioned it in this thread. It may be small to one who's self proclaimed roll is an instigator.

Frankly, the Podium got infinitely worse when the Planet closed. No coincidence. People took that mentality here. There was a good reason why those forums were separate and why one closed.

[Pckfn23]

Ha I’m not saying those things should be allowed, im saying if you don’t like something...you don’t have to participate.

That is exactly what you are saying. HA! You have repeatedly said as much with your kitchen analogy.

Others seemed to like it.

Others like insulting and mocking members?

Reminder: I just read it, I didn’t jump in much. I’m just saying if enough people are saying they liked it, and you didn’t. You have the freedom to not participate..and others who do like it should be allowed to participate. I’m not calling for some sort of Wild West.

That is LITERALLY exactly what you are advocating for. You are saying if you do not like insults, do not participate. That is simply asinine if our end goal is to create a civil inclusive community.

Just saying the kitchen literally seemed to hot for your taste (based on this thread) and it wasn’t for others...so do what I did and just read and laugh and jump in when you want. Or don’t read.

When I shared my personal story and people used it against me, you are damn right it was too hot. If you believe that is appropriate, you completely misunderstand what we are trying to be as a forum.

Like I said earlier, everything about the podium that causes fights plays out in milder forms in other parts of the forum, because politics is ideology and worldview, and worldview isn’t just limited to politics. It doesn’t take a podium to get fights started around here, just look at any game day thread from last year

It is not a difference of opinion but how people treat others. Why do fights need to happen? Why are you advocating for them? Why do you feel berating and belittling those with a different opinion is ok?

[Gunzaan]

Man, these last few posts have so many pot-meet-kettle, flat out hypocritical statements - they are too numerous to dissect. Revisionist histories and made-up bull. And repeating this desire “of a sense of community” when every other post for the last decade says otherwise. Just flat out egotistical bs with no sense of self-awareness.

At this point, it looks like most people have voiced their opinions on the future of political talk. A couple of people are against it/questioning the reason for it. A bunch of people are for it or saying if you don’t like it, don’t read it.