He's a bit slow off the line. Just watch him and Jeudy on each play, seems like Jeudy always a half to a whole step ahead of him off the ball, so he's limiting the effectiveness of his speed. Can get beat up on the line in press, likely from the same issue as above, wasted motion getting moving. Can let the ball get into his body too often and I wasn't a fan of his contested catches. His results were okay on contested catches, just don't see those succeeding as much against NFL talent.
Once he gets going though, it is freak speed. I don't see as much shiftiness, twitch as you'd hope for, ala someone like Jeudy, both with the ball in hands and in breaks or LOS.
Can't teach that speed though, super dangerous when the ball is in his hands, just not sure you'll see it in his hands with the ability to get up to full speed very often.
Put him in an offense where you can scheme him open just to get the ball in his hands, I think he'll be the best fit and put a lot of the stress on the D. If you are relying on him to beat his man one on one, I don't see it happening a ton against NFL CB's.
He's a bit slow off the line. Just watch him and Jeudy on each play, seems like Jeudy always a half to a whole step ahead of him off the ball, so he's limiting the effectiveness of his speed. Can get beat up on the line in press, likely from the same issue as above, wasted motion getting moving. Can let the ball get into his body too often and I wasn't a fan of his contested catches. His results were okay on contested catches, just don't see those succeeding as much against NFL talent.
I agree completely on all the stuff about the l.o.s... I just think that's super teachable. And I think the pros of the freak un-teachable speed far outweigh the cons of some of his contested catches. It's not like he doesn't have good, big hands and incredibly few drops. So I'm much less concerned about the catch point stuff. His game is creating separation, anyway, so his role isn't going to be 50/50 balls. His back shoulder acumen also reduces the need for those, especially with Rodgers who loves throwing them.
Nice. Don't know why we cannot get that information more readily in this day and age.
I agree completely; it's so frustrating how inaccessible these types of things are to the general public.
That said, WoW the gap between Ruggs and Reagor for 1st and 2nd truly justifies my desire to trade up for Ruggs, and my choice of Reagor as my top trade-back option in the early second round. Also one of my guys Joe Reed ticks the box.
I wish, though, they did more receivers. Interesting note at the top about Bryan Edwards, also.
They talk about the Dominator as if it's an advanced metric, but it seems like it's honestly just a volume share situation.... and given that Ruggs and Jeudy both missed it due to playing in a historically talented skill position group on a team that rarely lets any one player dominate its touches seems to counteract that. I put way more stock in the age cutoff, as that has been documented in many places and isn't as circumstantially variable. I do wonder if it holds true for JuCo players like Ayiuk, but generally, it's a thing.
It's also notable that the only person to break both risk levels is the exact correct player comp for Ruggs--Tyreek Hill.
I'm a late convert on the Ruggs train. A couple months ago I was telling my buddy I don't understand why he's more of a prospect that Mecole Hardman, for instance, who went in the mid-second and is a part-time player. But watching the film really turned me around on him. He needs coaching, but he's an outstanding combination of natural gifts and high-level effort/dirty work play
He's a bit slow off the line. Just watch him and Jeudy on each play, seems like Jeudy always a half to a whole step ahead of him off the ball, so he's limiting the effectiveness of his speed. Can get beat up on the line in press, likely from the same issue as above, wasted motion getting moving. Can let the ball get into his body too often and I wasn't a fan of his contested catches. His results were okay on contested catches, just don't see those succeeding as much against NFL talent.
I agree completely on all the stuff about the l.o.s... I just think that's super teachable. And I think the pros of the freak un-teachable speed far outweigh the cons of some of his contested catches. It's not like he doesn't have good, big hands and incredibly few drops. So I'm much less concerned about the catch point stuff. His game is creating separation, anyway, so his role isn't going to be 50/50 balls. His back shoulder acumen also reduces the need for those, especially with Rodgers who loves throwing them.
If you feel most things are coachable (I do not), then that speed, what you can't teach, yeah, there is no one else like him. I feel like Jalen Reagor doesn't almost everything a little bit better, but his top end speed isn't near as good, as no ones is. But if I can get Reagor like 30 picks later, that's a no brainer in value for me.
Would really love to scout in a vacuum without know their rankings, so my bias is there for sure, but feel like I would have a hard time putting Ruggs ahead of Reager on my big board if able to do it from scratch.
If you feel most things are coachable (I do not), then that speed, what you can't teach, yeah, there is no one else like him. I feel like Jalen Reagor doesn't almost everything a little bit better, but his top end speed isn't near as good, as no ones is. But if I can get Reagor like 30 picks later, that's a no brainer in value for me.
I hear you, especially as Reagor is really my next top choice, probably. But the line of scrimmage/wasted movement thing does feel very coachable. It's not like he doesn't have acceleration ability or burst. Like I said in the film thread, he looks like he's faking a block on most routes, and that is clearly a decision/technique. It may be true that his instinctive plan off the ball might not fully improve, or that his ability to beat press may always be limited. But the fact is that if you press Ruggs, you're gambling he loses or he destroys you; so teams can't make that their whole plan against him.
I think a great deal of improvement will come just from teaching and ingraining release technique and an emphasis on limiting wasted steps; if that's the case, which I think it is, I'm super sold.
Re: 2020 Positional Draft Talk - WR
Posted: 15 Apr 2020 16:20
by Pckfn23
I am on the same wave length as BF here. I do not want to trade up to get Ruggs when Reagor is waiting in the wings. Frankly, there is almost no one I want to trade up for in the first round to get.
Re: 2020 Positional Draft Talk - WR
Posted: 15 Apr 2020 16:26
by BF004
I would do a 1 and 3 for Jeudy, Lamb, Young, Simmons, Okudah, Brown and probably a few of the tackles, although I don't know any of them well enough at the top.
Other that, I'll my list of absolutelies at 30, i.e., Just Jefferson, Wirfs, etc.
Then I'd probably look to trade down. I think the special area of this WR class is around like 25-100, gunna be so much value in that range, wouldn't hate getting 2 in there.
I am on the same wave length as BF here. I do not want to trade up to get Ruggs when Reagor is waiting in the wings. Frankly, there is almost no one I want to trade up for in the first round to get.
I'm usually in that camp, so I have innate empathy for it. I happen to be on the other side of this argument for, gosh, maybe the first time. I'm a trade back junky. I will be STOKED with a trade back to 40 and grabbing Reagor there and using the extra pick to take Antonio Gibson as a speedy, explosive gadget guy learning the RB position. I just think that Ruggs offers an opportunity that no one else in the draft can quite create, which makes me willing to move. I won't be mad if we don't, though.
I am on the same wave length as BF here. I do not want to trade up to get Ruggs when Reagor is waiting in the wings. Frankly, there is almost no one I want to trade up for in the first round to get.
I'm usually in that camp, so I have innate empathy for it. I happen to be on the other side of this argument for, gosh, maybe the first time. I'm a trade back junky. I will be STOKED with a trade back to 40 and grabbing Reagor there and using the extra pick to take Antonio Gibson as a speedy, explosive gadget guy learning the RB position. I just think that Ruggs offers an opportunity that no one else in the draft can quite create, which makes me willing to move. I won't be mad if we don't, though.
Same. Kind of like last year. In retrospect, if we don't trade up for Savage, stay put and take Juan Thornhill. I'm still happy. But sitting there or moving back, if both of those guys are gone, then I am irate.
Maybe this year is not the same because we don't have the same the same ammo, but IF the Packers have that same conviction that guys 1 and 2 are not 1A and 1B, then I have no problem with them going to get their preference.
Re: 2020 Positional Draft Talk - WR
Posted: 15 Apr 2020 16:36
by BF004
I just want to $%@# sit in the draft room, lol. Not only just to see the tier board, but be part of the discussions that help build their board.
If you feel most things are coachable (I do not), then that speed, what you can't teach, yeah, there is no one else like him. I feel like Jalen Reagor doesn't almost everything a little bit better, but his top end speed isn't near as good, as no ones is. But if I can get Reagor like 30 picks later, that's a no brainer in value for me.
I hear you, especially as Reagor is really my next top choice, probably. But the line of scrimmage/wasted movement thing does feel very coachable. It's not like he doesn't have acceleration ability or burst. Like I said in the film thread, he looks like he's faking a block on most routes, and that is clearly a decision/technique. It may be true that his instinctive plan off the ball might not fully improve, or that his ability to beat press may always be limited. But the fact is that if you press Ruggs, you're gambling he loses or he destroys you; so teams can't make that their whole plan against him.
I think a great deal of improvement will come just from teaching and ingraining release technique and an emphasis on limiting wasted steps; if that's the case, which I think it is, I'm super sold.
I don't like to over coach guys, I like guys who already get it. I feel like when you try to do too much coaching with a WR, they start thinking and not reacting, see probably sophmore year of Davante Adams. I think the more you let a guy play, the better he will be, so I look for the guys that seem like they just already get it and naturally have a feel for it.
But a catch like this, chef's kiss, just think you will never see Ruggs make this play. Contested catching always going to be huge in the NFL against NFL defenders.
video supposed to load at 2:29 if it doesnt.
The play around 3:03 is awesome too. Just reads the ball well, fights for position, high points it well, that ball in the air is going to be his and nobody else's.
Re: 2020 Positional Draft Talk - WR
Posted: 15 Apr 2020 16:56
by bud fox
Reagor reminds me of Cobb.
I would prefer Higgins at 30 if both are available.
I would prefer Higgins at 30 if both are available.
I just went back and watched more Higgens after saying I didn't like him, and not sure if I was confusing him with someone else, but I kind of do. I've had that idea in my head for a few weeks that I don't like him, but guy has some skills.
I don't like to over coach guys, I like guys who already get it. I feel like when you try to do too much coaching with a WR, they start thinking and not reacting, see probably sophmore year of Davante Adams. I think the more you let a guy play, the better he will be, so I look for the guys that seem like they just already get it and naturally have a feel for it.
But a catch like this, chef's kiss, just think you will never see Ruggs make this play. Contested catching always going to be huge in the NFL against NFL defenders.
So what say you about the first play here (starting at 1:17). The second play, I can see that even though he skies for the ball in a contested situation, he lets the ball into his body. But he definitely has the "tracks the ball well, goes up for it, and uses his body to shield defenders away from the ball while completing the catch" ability here in each of the first two plays
Re: 2020 Positional Draft Talk - WR
Posted: 15 Apr 2020 17:29
by NCF
Watched clips of all of the top guys again. I will say I am colder on Aiyuk. Least impressive guy I watched today. Shenault may have moved back up a bit in my eyes.
I don't like to over coach guys, I like guys who already get it. I feel like when you try to do too much coaching with a WR, they start thinking and not reacting, see probably sophmore year of Davante Adams. I think the more you let a guy play, the better he will be, so I look for the guys that seem like they just already get it and naturally have a feel for it.
But a catch like this, chef's kiss, just think you will never see Ruggs make this play. Contested catching always going to be huge in the NFL against NFL defenders.
So what say you about the first play here (starting at 1:17). The second play, I can see that even though he skies for the ball in a contested situation, he lets the ball into his body. But he definitely has the "tracks the ball well, goes up for it, and uses his body to shield defenders away from the ball while completing the catch" ability here in each of the first two plays
That’s just a play I mark down a bit, too late to react to the ball in the air, doesn’t get position like he needs to, but makes a circus catch. Exactly where I say his results were actually pretty good from what I saw, but I don’t feel like it’s sustainable against NFL CBs.
Re: 2020 Positional Draft Talk - WR
Posted: 16 Apr 2020 21:54
by BF004
Wonderlic scores
Chase Claypool - 27
Michael Pittman - 29
Bryan Edwards - 28
Brandon Aiyuk - 23
Henry Ruggs - 20
K.J. Hamler - 15
Van Jefferson - 12
Laviska Shenault - 14
Denzel Mims - 17
Jalen Reagor - 13
Tee Higgins - 11
Justin Jefferson - 19
Jerry Jeudy - 9
CeeDee Lamb - 12
