Topic Split: Gruden Resigns

[texas]

I do remember one instance where Gruden got a guy out of the league for his "personality" and not necessarily his play on the field. He would deny it had to do with actual "color", but it seemed to be that he didnt like the "culture" this player brought with him to the field...That would be the African American punter Marquette King. King was a punter of high quality, in my opinion was unfairly cut, and then went to Denver and got hurt. Cutting King was always suspect to me!

That's interesting, because Marquette King always seemed like a real good punter. I mean, I doubt Gruden was actually racist (to any meaningful degree which would be worthy of the negative connotations the word tends to carry), but this is still interesting.

[salmar80]

Gruden didn't just write things that were likely inappropriate. He wrote things that were bigoted and despicable.

I doubt the things you find despicable are the same ones I find despicable, but just curious, which of the specific things are you referring to?

Find all about it... AT THE ROUND TABLE, where you can talk about non-football stuff like philosophy, and do meticulous breakdowns on concepts of inappropriety (and on whether that's a word) and despicability viewforum.php?f=8

[Drj820]

I do remember one instance where Gruden got a guy out of the league for his "personality" and not necessarily his play on the field. He would deny it had to do with actual "color", but it seemed to be that he didnt like the "culture" this player brought with him to the field...That would be the African American punter Marquette King. King was a punter of high quality, in my opinion was unfairly cut, and then went to Denver and got hurt. Cutting King was always suspect to me!

That's interesting, because Marquette King always seemed like a real good punter. I mean, I doubt Gruden was actually racist (to any meaningful degree which would be worthy of the negative connotations the word tends to carry), but this is still interesting.

yeah, thats just the one situation where what you read in the emails...and then what actually happened in the real world...seemed to potentially cross and make you go..hmmm....

Outside of that the man has had a long career of making friends with minorities (terico and dungy) and well as coaching them on the field.

[Crazylegs Starks]

...
My question is, why did his emails have to be made public? Why not just address it behind closed doors and let Gruden cite some other reason publicly for his resignation?

They didn't "have to" be made public. The NFL says they didn't release any to the media, which means someone involved leaked them.

Yes, I know the NFL could be lying and they could have actually leaked them on purpose. I don't really see the motive though.

Looking at Raiders forums, folks seem to think a certain owner had an interest in getting outta a 10 year contract (with 6 remaining) with a losing coach who has also failed as de-facto GM... An owner who was supposed to hire a Belichick, but got a Bears GM.

Bears GM!

I just find it hard to believe that an NFL employee with very high-level access would leak the emails just to help out Mr. Bowl Cut

[salmar80]

If I were to write an article or a documentary about this, I'd get the oldest person alive with experience to talk about the locker room talk of his day. And then get as many people I could find of every decade to talk about the locker room talk of their day. Up to 2021.

I have a feeling the myth of somehow "harmless locker room talk" would get dispelled rather brutally.

[Drj820]

If I were to write an article or a documentary about this, I'd get the oldest person alive with experience to talk about the locker room talk of his day. And then get as many people I could find of every decade to talk about the locker room talk of their day. Up to 2021.

I have a feeling the myth of somehow "harmless locker room talk" would get dispelled rather brutally.

Did you play sports that involved a locker room growing up?

[salmar80]

If I were to write an article or a documentary about this, I'd get the oldest person alive with experience to talk about the locker room talk of his day. And then get as many people I could find of every decade to talk about the locker room talk of their day. Up to 2021.

I have a feeling the myth of somehow "harmless locker room talk" would get dispelled rather brutally.

Did you play sports that involved a locker room growing up?

I did. Ice hockey with HPK Hämeenlinna.

I can't remember all the locker room talk as a teen. I was a quiet goalie at that age. But I do remember a big defenseman who later suicided, and he was probably gay and was picked upon for not being as manly as he was "supposed to be, for his size". Just locker room talk.

I was a bully once, in elementary school. I was the second smallest kid in the school, so I got harassed for a bit. My mom told me: "Hit them. In the nose. Every time. No matter if you lose. They'll get tired of a hornet and pick on another easier thing". So I did. Fought some bouts, lost every time. But did some damage. And they stopped harassing me.

Being a hornet saved me. But that's not the important part.

The bullies did find another target. A weak one with a big body and a learning disability. And for a short time, I joined them at the bullying.

That's a black mark on me. I went with the crowd to my personal ease. I bullied person who couldn't even understand it. I regret ever joining with those assholes. Hate myself for it. In this case, I got to apologize years afterwards.

But when that gay defenseman was found dead, I'm not even gonna pretend it wasn't partly my fault. It was. And just locker room talk.

[Drj820]

If I were to write an article or a documentary about this, I'd get the oldest person alive with experience to talk about the locker room talk of his day. And then get as many people I could find of every decade to talk about the locker room talk of their day. Up to 2021.

I have a feeling the myth of somehow "harmless locker room talk" would get dispelled rather brutally.

Did you play sports that involved a locker room growing up?

I did. Ice hockey with HPK Hämeenlinna.

I can't remember all the locker room talk as a teen. I was a quiet goalie at that age. But I do remember a big defenseman who later suicided, and he was probably gay and was picked upon for not being as manly as he was "supposed to be, for his size". Just locker room talk.

I was a bully once, in elementary school. I was the second smallest kid in the school, so I got harassed for a bit. My mom told me: "Hit them. In the nose. Every time. No matter if you lose. They'll get tired of a hornet and pick on another easier thing". So I did. Fought some bouts, lost every time. But did some damage. And they stopped harassing me.

Being a hornet saved me. But that's not the important part.

The bullies did find another target. A weak one with a big body and a learning disability. And for a short time, I joined them at the bullying.

That's a black mark on me. I went with the crowd to my personal ease. I bullied person who couldn't even understand it. I regret ever joining with those assholes. Hate myself for it. In this case, I got to apologize years afterwards.

But when that gay defenseman was found dead, I'm not even gonna pretend it wasn't partly my fault. It was. And just locker room talk.

Okay i see your point now...you were saying locker room talk happens, but that it’s not “harmless”. Understood.

Thought your point was that if you polled decades of people you would find rough things were not actually said as often as being ascribed in locker rooms, to that I wanted to clarify if your evidence was from ever being in one.

I understand your point now!

[RingoCStarrQB]

You can all roll your eyes at Ringo if you wish ... but this unfortunate discussion brings my mind back to the glory era of Packers football ... the days when Lombardi laid down the law in Green Bay on the subjects of racism and discrimination. None of this was allowed when Vince was in charge of the Packers. Just because it's 50+ years later shouldn't change anything. It's a shame this is happening ..... again. I can't imagine the 1960s Packers locker room misbehaving.

[Drj820]

You can all roll your eyes at Ringo if you wish ... but this unfortunate discussion brings my mind back to the glory era of Packers football ... the days when Lombardi laid down the law in Green Bay on the subjects of racism and discrimination. None of this was allowed when Vince was in charge of the Packers. Just because it's 50+ years later shouldn't change anything. It's a shame this is happening ..... again. I can't imagine the 1960s Packers locker room misbehaving.

Would never roll my eyes at your perspective Ringo, I love how you bring the Packers history to the forum!

[salmar80]

Did you play sports that involved a locker room growing up?

I did. Ice hockey with HPK Hämeenlinna.

I can't remember all the locker room talk as a teen. I was a quiet goalie at that age. But I do remember a big defenseman who later suicided, and he was probably gay and was picked upon for not being as manly as he was "supposed to be, for his size". Just locker room talk.

I was a bully once, in elementary school. I was the second smallest kid in the school, so I got harassed for a bit. My mom told me: "Hit them. In the nose. Every time. No matter if you lose. They'll get tired of a hornet and pick on another easier thing". So I did. Fought some bouts, lost every time. But did some damage. And they stopped harassing me.

Being a hornet saved me. But that's not the important part.

The bullies did find another target. A weak one with a big body and a learning disability. And for a short time, I joined them at the bullying.

That's a black mark on me. I went with the crowd to my personal ease. I bullied person who couldn't even understand it. I regret ever joining with those assholes. Hate myself for it. In this case, I got to apologize years afterwards.

But when that gay defenseman was found dead, I'm not even gonna pretend it wasn't partly my fault. It was. And just locker room talk.

Okay i see your point now...you were saying locker room talk happens, but that it’s not “harmless”. Understood.

Thought your point was that if you polled decades of people you would find rough things were not actually said as often as being ascribed in locker rooms, to that I wanted to clarify if your evidence was from ever being in one.

I understand your point now!

Think harder.

[Drj820]

I did. Ice hockey with HPK Hämeenlinna.

I can't remember all the locker room talk as a teen. I was a quiet goalie at that age. But I do remember a big defenseman who later suicided, and he was probably gay and was picked upon for not being as manly as he was "supposed to be, for his size". Just locker room talk.

I was a bully once, in elementary school. I was the second smallest kid in the school, so I got harassed for a bit. My mom told me: "Hit them. In the nose. Every time. No matter if you lose. They'll get tired of a hornet and pick on another easier thing". So I did. Fought some bouts, lost every time. But did some damage. And they stopped harassing me.

Being a hornet saved me. But that's not the important part.

The bullies did find another target. A weak one with a big body and a learning disability. And for a short time, I joined them at the bullying.

That's a black mark on me. I went with the crowd to my personal ease. I bullied person who couldn't even understand it. I regret ever joining with those assholes. Hate myself for it. In this case, I got to apologize years afterwards.

But when that gay defenseman was found dead, I'm not even gonna pretend it wasn't partly my fault. It was. And just locker room talk.

Okay i see your point now...you were saying locker room talk happens, but that it’s not “harmless”. Understood.

Thought your point was that if you polled decades of people you would find rough things were not actually said as often as being ascribed in locker rooms, to that I wanted to clarify if your evidence was from ever being in one.

I understand your point now!

Think harder.

Word

[williewasgreat]

You can all roll your eyes at Ringo if you wish ... but this unfortunate discussion brings my mind back to the glory era of Packers football ... the days when Lombardi laid down the law in Green Bay on the subjects of racism and discrimination. None of this was allowed when Vince was in charge of the Packers. Just because it's 50+ years later shouldn't change anything. It's a shame this is happening ..... again. I can't imagine the 1960s Packers locker room misbehaving.

Lombardi experienced his own brand of prejudice earlier in his life as Italians were also discriminated against in the first half of the 20th century in this country. He was very sensitive to racism and would not allow it on his team. Another of the reasons his players really loved the guy. He was truly an amazing person!

[Yoop]

If I were to write an article or a documentary about this, I'd get the oldest person alive with experience to talk about the locker room talk of his day. And then get as many people I could find of every decade to talk about the locker room talk of their day. Up to 2021.

I have a feeling the myth of somehow "harmless locker room talk" would get dispelled rather brutally.

Did you play sports that involved a locker room growing up?

I did. Ice hockey with HPK Hämeenlinna.

I can't remember all the locker room talk as a teen. I was a quiet goalie at that age. But I do remember a big defenseman who later suicided, and he was probably gay and was picked upon for not being as manly as he was "supposed to be, for his size". Just locker room talk.

I was a bully once, in elementary school. I was the second smallest kid in the school, so I got harassed for a bit. My mom told me: "Hit them. In the nose. Every time. No matter if you lose. They'll get tired of a hornet and pick on another easier thing". So I did. Fought some bouts, lost every time. But did some damage. And they stopped harassing me.

Being a hornet saved me. But that's not the important part.

The bullies did find another target. A weak one with a big body and a learning disability. And for a short time, I joined them at the bullying.

That's a black mark on me. I went with the crowd to my personal ease. I bullied person who couldn't even understand it. I regret ever joining with those assholes. Hate myself for it. In this case, I got to apologize years afterwards.

But when that gay defenseman was found dead, I'm not even gonna pretend it wasn't partly my fault. It was. And just locker room talk.

well said,

[Crazylegs Starks]

You can all roll your eyes at Ringo if you wish ... but this unfortunate discussion brings my mind back to the glory era of Packers football ... the days when Lombardi laid down the law in Green Bay on the subjects of racism and discrimination. None of this was allowed when Vince was in charge of the Packers. Just because it's 50+ years later shouldn't change anything. It's a shame this is happening ..... again. I can't imagine the 1960s Packers locker room misbehaving.

Lombardi experienced his own brand of prejudice earlier in his life as Italians were also discriminated against in the first half of the 20th century in this country. He was very sensitive to racism and would not allow it on his team. Another of the reasons his players really loved the guy. He was truly an amazing person!

Lombardi was ahead of the curve in many respects. His brother Harold was gay, so he did not tolerate that kind of bigotry on his teams either.

[Trudge]

Has anyone posted this?

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2021/0 ... ining-camp

[TheSkeptic]

Has anyone posted this?

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2021/0 ... ining-camp

I had not seen it before. But other than #18 and perhaps a say in the other offensive players, what were the concessions?

[Crazylegs Starks]

I didn't know the NFL (or team?) email servers had a language filter:

Lukas from Milwaukee, WI
Vic, do you think the NFL should release all of the emails in the WFT investigation. It seems Gruden is the fall guy and others are being protected, including the owner Snyder.

First of all, the NFL isn't going to rule on the WFT investigation until it's concluded. You're mixing apples with oranges. The NFL was investigating the WFT when it found Gruden. They weren't looking for him and they didn't want to find him. This is not a good look for the NFL. Gruden was collateral damage. I doubt the league is protecting other collateral-damage personnel because that information would almost certainly leak to the media and, as I said, the league would go down even harder than Gruden.

When I was an employee of the Packers, it was mandatory for all employees to attend a class on email conduct, as taught by the IT department. After the stern warning of repercussion for violating NFL email policy, you'd have to be a raging imbecile to discuss in an email on an NFL server anything more incriminating than picking your nose. The NFL filters are so intense I once had a column fail to send to the person who was to post it because it included a reference to former Browns receiver Fair Hooker. I see all of these comments by people who are so sure they know, but they don't know. Critical thinking has become a reverse process. First we decide, and then we invent ways to deny the truth.

[Scott4Pack]

How many people are going to fail the same litmus test? The vast majority.

Ya... no.

There are some very shady things about all of this, but Gruden being forced to resign is not one of them.

I'm not sure what you are saying there. But listen, once any employer or the gov't decides it's okay to mine any of our personal thoughts and conversations from years ago, then everything is on the table. It only depends upon how motivated the employer or gov't is in finding dirt. I'm thinking 98% of us have uttered things that we would regret today if they were held against us.

I used to work at a place that did some of this a few years ago. EVERY person who worked there was fearful of the next day there.

NFL needs to grow up a bit and make clear expectations AHEAD of time, not ten years after something happened.

[YoHoChecko]

I'm not sure what you are saying there. But listen, once any employer or the gov't decides it's okay to mine any of our personal thoughts and conversations from years ago, then everything is on the table. It only depends upon how motivated the employer or gov't is in finding dirt. I'm thinking 98% of us have uttered things that we would regret today if they were held against us.

I used to work at a place that did some of this a few years ago. EVERY person who worked there was fearful of the next day there.

NFL needs to grow up a bit and make clear expectations AHEAD of time, not ten years after something happened.

I think you're right about the fear, but they aren't "mining" for anything by searching work emails. I think everyone knows that work emails are fair game. If they were emails sent from Gruden's Yahoo account to Bruce Allen's hotmail account, I'd be like "woah! That's shady" and agree with you.

But Gruden's ESPN account to Allen's NFL account? Absolutely fair game for content monitoring and consequences.