Packers Huddle

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:15

This isn't about PFR, but PFR doesn't grade, so how can they adjust their grade?

if as you say, they don't grade, then how do they determine anything? to determine anything you have to make a evaluation of a play to determine who did whatever.

and I've seen in the past that PFF grades did change between Monday and Wednesday, ( not gonna take or have the time to go digging), but I didn't just pull this out of my ass, and I would have never brought it up originally if I had not noticed those changes.

a pressure should be recorded any time the pass rusher forces the QB to re set or move from the pocket, PFR does a dis service to recording total pressures.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:16

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:12

lets not mix words OK, PFR records data they determine to be accurate, same as PFF, same as Andy Herman all determine if a pass rush is a hurry, all determine if a DB is charged with missing a tackle, same with other stats they record

PFF and Andy Herman try to grade each player on every play. PFR does not do this.

thats there problem then, and why I only use them as a reference, and there poor at that when it comes to player stats, most especially when it comes to pass rush.

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:12

go pak go wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:08

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:05

bull &%$@

there 100 plus intern eval guys grade games as there played, then there 10 or so full time staff eval those grades and then adjust accordingly, and since just about every NFL team and plenty of colleges rely and pay for PFF grades that basically proves there pretty reliable, my original point proves true, the grade they give on monday might change by wednesday, once more evaluation is completed.


PFR doesn't adjust, those speedy grades you get on Monday never change, probably why they suck as a reference, how the $%@# can there total pressures be accurate, there as much as 30% diff then PFF, as for assignment stuff, PFR doesn't even try to get that right, at least PFF gives it a shot, that there wrong on occasion is a small price to pay, at least they show some effort to figuring it out.

I don't think PFR grades. They are just a statistical database that decided to tabulate pressures for defense starting in 2018.

lets not mix words OK, PFR records data they determine to be accurate, same as PFF, same as Andy Herman all determine if a pass rush is a hurry, all determine if a DB is charged with missing a tackle, same with other stats they record

It's not mixing words.

Grading is not the same as a statistical database.

Yes there are now more subjective stats in football, but this is akin to errors in baseball. An error in baseball has some subjectivity but it is still a stat. Not a graded performance.

Your popular subjective football stats are pressures and WR drops. PFR since 2018, offers more advanced analytical data compilation of raw statistical numbers. You can see what they do here.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... _stats.htm

But that is just a data base. It is not grading. Grading is interpretation.

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:27

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:16

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:12

lets not mix words OK, PFR records data they determine to be accurate, same as PFF, same as Andy Herman all determine if a pass rush is a hurry, all determine if a DB is charged with missing a tackle, same with other stats they record

PFF and Andy Herman try to grade each player on every play. PFR does not do this.

thats there problem then, and why I only use them as a reference, and there poor at that when it comes to player stats, most especially when it comes to pass rush.

If you only want to use PFF as the preferred reference than there is no deying that Rashan Gary has been freaking awesome this year.

Like higher than Pro Bowl level awesome.

What I like to do is take in all the data, analysis and compare. If one is significantly different than the other, I would like to know why because it is interesting. Herman says it is himself that he likes to compare his grades to MLF whenever the coach opines on a player performance to see how well he actually grades.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:16

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:12

lets not mix words OK, PFR records data they determine to be accurate, same as PFF, same as Andy Herman all determine if a pass rush is a hurry, all determine if a DB is charged with missing a tackle, same with other stats they record

PFF and Andy Herman try to grade each player on every play. PFR does not do this.

Yeah, PFR does no grading at all. Even their Career AV comes from a mathematical formula based on the stats.

The only "subjective" things PFR has are some of their "Advanced stats", like hurries and knockdowns, and that data PFR gets from Sportsradar who do break film down to produce these advanced stats, and have to evaluate things like whether a play counts as a hurry and who gets credited with a knockdown.

PFR's oft-misunderstood "pressure" stat is simply hurries+knockdowns+sacks (almost). What's so confusing about that stat is that both solo sacks and half sacks count as one pressure. So if a player has many half sacks, it can look like he has more pressures than simply summing up his hurries+knockdowns+sacks.

PFF, Andy Herman and others who do subjective evaluation have different criteria as to what counts as a pressure, whether sacks are included in pressures or are a separate thing, etc, so their numbers are gonna differ from PFR's. And they actually grade players, which is obviously subjective.

The point of grading is different from assigning stats to players. For example, if Alexander has PERFECT coverage, and the QB doesn't throw his way, it does not show up in any way in stats, but it will in grades. Same for Clark tying up and pushing back two defenders and allowing someone else get a stat. Same for a WR getting wide open with a sick release, but QB not seeing him. Or a DB getting embarrassed, being saved by a quick pressure. A gimme INT off deflection is worth the same in stats than a sick athletic INT in 1-1 coverage on a deep pass, but a grader can give the latter play a higher grade.

That's why PFR has a different use for me than the grading ones. Stats get better the more data there is. They can tell the tale of a player's career real well (like AR's TD to INT -ratio), but they do not tell the full tale of one game.

And both stats and grade are just tools to help give ideas and to help the poor eyeballs that can't see everything in a game.

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:27

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:16

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:12

lets not mix words OK, PFR records data they determine to be accurate, same as PFF, same as Andy Herman all determine if a pass rush is a hurry, all determine if a DB is charged with missing a tackle, same with other stats they record

PFF and Andy Herman try to grade each player on every play. PFR does not do this.

thats there problem then, and why I only use them as a reference, and there poor at that when it comes to player stats, most especially when it comes to pass rush.

That's not a problem... One can take stats for a game without evaluating the play of a player. This is not hard to understand. Not grading players does not make PFR poor at what they do.

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:24

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:15

This isn't about PFR, but PFR doesn't grade, so how can they adjust their grade?

if as you say, they don't grade, then how do they determine anything? to determine anything you have to make a evaluation of a play to determine who did whatever.

and I've seen in the past that PFF grades did change between Monday and Wednesday, ( not gonna take or have the time to go digging), but I didn't just pull this out of my ass, and I would have never brought it up originally if I had not noticed those changes.

a pressure should be recorded any time the pass rusher forces the QB to re set or move from the pocket, PFR does a dis service to recording total pressures.

It's called statistics. For example, noting that a RB gained 5 yards is taking stats, but it is not grading. This is what PFR does.

It very rarely happens that PFF changes a players grade by looking at the ALL22. It may happen on occasion, but no where near as much as it should, especially for QBs, DBs, and WRs. Can you name even a handful of grades that were changed?

Recording total pressures is a disservice? How so?

A pressure is not just forcing the QB to move from the pocket or reset, it is also forcing the QB to throw before they are ready. This all why it is a subjective stat and up to the evaluator to determine. It's why PFF is more liberal in their stat counting and PFR is more conservative.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:54

It very rarely happens that PFF changes a players grade by looking at the ALL22.

no,no, you specifically said it doesn't happen when I brought it up Monday, and I didn't say how often they change, just that they do, we rarely see the changes because PFF doesn't announce the adjustments to there original grades unless you fork over the 30 bucks a month or 210.00 a year

PFR pressure stats are a dis service to us fans, either do it right or don't do it at all, PFF does it right, they give a pressure to any player that forces a QB to re adjust.

I use both, that is when I can find the PFF grades, or I use PFR when I can't even though I really can't relay on some of there findings.

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 13:06

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:54

It very rarely happens that PFF changes a players grade by looking at the ALL22.

no,no, you specifically said it doesn't happen when I brought it up Monday, and I didn't say how often they change, just that they do, we rarely see the changes because PFF doesn't announce the adjustments to there original grades unless you fork over the 30 bucks a month or 210.00 a year

Fortunately for me, I never said it doesn't happen. I specifically said it happens very rarely, because there are the rare incidences where they actually do change the grades, but that is few and far between. To see the adjustment to the original grade, all one would have to do is compare Monday's grade with Wednesday's grade. Do you have examples for us?

PFR pressure stats are a dis service to us fans, either do it right or don't do it at all, PFF does it right, they give a pressure to any player that forces a QB to re adjust.

PFR does it the same way giving a pressure to a player who "forces the QB to throw the earlier than intended or chase them out of the pocket." That is their definition of a hurry, which is part of the pressure stat. There is nothing wrong with this nor is there an disservice going on here.

salmar80 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:38

PFR's oft-misunderstood "pressure" stat is simply hurries+knockdowns+sacks (almost).

almost is a subjective word I have almost zero faith that PFR gets the hurries right unless sports trac does the evaluating for them, and they've only been doing this stuff for 2 years.

my angst with all this is people here shooting down PFF grades, while not perfect, and don't always align with Lafluers explanations, there usually very close to what we hear from him, obviously they wont know exactly player assignments, no outsider would be balls on accurate concerning that stuff.

whatever, we don't have access to a ton of game and player evaluations, it's nice to have a varifiable reference to confirm what we watch, but for someone to bring in PFR to do that when it comes to pass rush isn't anything near conclusive at all, and how can they possibly give a player a pressure unless they are evaluating and grading that players performance, Sal do you see why this is confusing to me.

I have almost zero faith that PFR gets the hurries right

Why? Simply because they show less than PFF? Simply because you WANT them to be wrong? Have you been watching every passing snap in the NFL to verify your lack of faith?

for someone to bring in PFR to do that when it comes to pass rush isn't anything near conclusive at all

No one said it was conclusive...

how can they possibly give a player a pressure unless they are evaluating and grading that players performance

A pressure is a stat like yards or sacks or touchdowns... One does not have to grade or evaluate a player's performance to count pressures... It's not confusing at all.

salmar80 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 10:46

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 10:32

PFF grades on the TV copy of the game and while they do have multiple evaluators, they do not wait for the All-22 to post their grades. Then they very rarely change their grades based off an evaluation of the All-22. That's the part that is concerning, especially for WR, DB, and QB grading. Once they hid their raw statistics went behind an enormous pay wall, their grading has become less reliable. Use it, look at it, enjoy it, but don't take it as gospel or any better or worse than other sites. When they have to get grades out within 12 hours of the game starting, they are sacrificing accuracy for speed.

I'd be interested at checking how much the grades actually change during a week, especially after a supposed All-22 review, but not 35$ for a month -interested.

I mean, like you said, grading especially DBs, WRs and QBs comprehensively is simply impossible from the TV pictures. You don't see half the routes run nor how the coverage unfolds. A WR may juke the cleats off a DB off screen. Or a DB can have perfect coverage off screen. A QB may have a wiiiide open option off screen. Et cetera.

I know I saw on Yahoo this morning that Campbells grade did change, the article said PFF has him graded mid 80's on the season, yet heres what his original grade was for this Sunday
4. De'Vondre Campbell (71.4)

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 13:21

salmar80 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 11:38

PFR's oft-misunderstood "pressure" stat is simply hurries+knockdowns+sacks (almost).

almost is a subjective word I have almost zero faith that PFR gets the hurries right unless sports trac does the evaluating for them, and they've only been doing this stuff for 2 years.

my angst with all this is people here shooting down PFF grades, while not perfect, and don't always align with Lafluers explanations, there usually very close to what we hear from him, obviously they wont know exactly player assignments, no outsider would be balls on accurate concerning that stuff.

whatever, we don't have access to a ton of game and player evaluations, it's nice to have a varifiable reference to confirm what we watch, but for someone to bring in PFR to do that when it comes to pass rush isn't anything near conclusive at all, and how can they possibly give a player a pressure unless they are evaluating and grading that players performance, Sal do you see why this is confusing to me.

Yeah, once you get to the "advanced" or "next gen" or whatever non-official and non-formalized stats and terms, it can get confusing. What PFR calls "hurries", others call "pressures". Over time, the use of those terms should align, but we're not there yet.

And yes, someone has to look at tape to tack a play a "hurry" in the stats. But that's still not a grade. You can get an easy peasy hurry if the opponent messes up the protection and leaves a free rusher. A hurry there is no great accomplishment. A grader won't give that rusher a great positive grade for a gimme play. They may even give him a negative grade if the player whiffs on a gimme sack, and it's only a hurry. I can't explain it any clearer than that.

The biggest disconnect between PFF's (or Herman's) and LaFleur's grades comes from the fact that LaFleur and his assistant coaches know the play call and what the player was supposed to do on the play. No outsider can know that, tho they often can make an educated guess (like pure 1-1 man coverage is pretty easy to spot). For example, a play like the one where Newman and Taylor blocked no one and looked like dunces, only Packers staff know whether it was their fault, or whether the center or AR messed up the protection call, and those two players were trying to execute the call. And only the D staff know who blew the coverage on the wide open RZ touchdown. Therefore LaFleur will always have different and better grades at his disposal than anyone outside the team.

Yoop wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 13:40

salmar80 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 10:46

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

20 Oct 2021 10:32

PFF grades on the TV copy of the game and while they do have multiple evaluators, they do not wait for the All-22 to post their grades. Then they very rarely change their grades based off an evaluation of the All-22. That's the part that is concerning, especially for WR, DB, and QB grading. Once they hid their raw statistics went behind an enormous pay wall, their grading has become less reliable. Use it, look at it, enjoy it, but don't take it as gospel or any better or worse than other sites. When they have to get grades out within 12 hours of the game starting, they are sacrificing accuracy for speed.

I'd be interested at checking how much the grades actually change during a week, especially after a supposed All-22 review, but not 35$ for a month -interested.

I mean, like you said, grading especially DBs, WRs and QBs comprehensively is simply impossible from the TV pictures. You don't see half the routes run nor how the coverage unfolds. A WR may juke the cleats off a DB off screen. Or a DB can have perfect coverage off screen. A QB may have a wiiiide open option off screen. Et cetera.

I know I saw on Yahoo this morning that Campbells grade did change, the article said PFF has him graded mid 80's on the season, yet heres what his original grade was for this Sunday
4. De'Vondre Campbell (71.4)

https://sports.yahoo.com/packers-vondre ... 05707.html
His overall season grade is 84.7. His grade for the GAME last Sunday was 71.4. No game grade change there.