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Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 22 Apr 2022 07:37
by YoHoChecko
Scott4Pack wrote: ↑22 Apr 2022 02:44
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Apr 2022 06:19
read a comment the other day from some draft guy I'd never heard of that said Davis played most of last year at 365 lbs, barely played a 1/3 of the D snaps.
wondered if any one here heard that? thats concerning to me?
I like Wyatt, but I'll wait and take someone in the 3rd or 4th round
That’s my concern about any “mountain” men. Do they stay healthy for a long career? Do they have the stamina (at least on defense) to play a lot of snaps?
I feel like the impression that Davis didn’t play many snaps because he couldn’t is misplaced.
A lot of schools need to keep their most talented players on the field as often as possible. Georgia has more than seven front-seven players on their team that will be drafted in the top 100-120 this year and next.
They took their nose tackle off the field to add a linebacker who can blitz and cover (Channing Tindall). He’ll be drafted in the 3rd or 4th round
without ever starting a game in college.
Why on earth wouldn’t Georgia sub out their nose tackle for a linebacker in a pro-style system with the talent to do it? Travon Walker (top 5) slid inside next to Wyatt (20 to 40) for passing downs. Tindall (3rd/4th) and Carter (2023 top 15) become the outside linebackers. Dean (1st/2nd) and Quay Walker (2nd/3rd) man the middle of the field. That’s a passing down lineup good enough for the NFL. And given how great the Georgia run defense was and how often they had the lead, passing downs are common.
It’s not necessarily about some big dude who can’t hang. It was about maximizing the effectiveness of situational defense. A UConn team that set records for futility over the years didn’t have the luxury of taking Travis Jones off the field.
Certainly, Davis’ stamina and conditioning are questions. His passing down effectiveness is projection. You like to draft guys who have proven they can do things not just projected to be able to do more. But you don’t always get to. You have to be able to see special talent and translate it to the next level and your own system.
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 22 Apr 2022 08:12
by Drj820
Jordan Davis is going to be gone before 22 and I dont think we move up to secure a player at that position.
I could be proven wrong but I believe discussions on him will prove moot
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 22 Apr 2022 08:27
by Yoop
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑22 Apr 2022 07:37
I feel like the impression that Davis didn’t play many snaps because he couldn’t is misplaced.
well almost every site mentions it, also Yoho we are Georgia like, most opponents we face play catch up ball, not to say we couldn't use a better run stopping DT, but we also need to improve interior pass rush at the same time, there are other DT's in this class that offer that, and at a much cheaper cost.
He's a physical freak no doubt, but when ya watch him in games he is best at destroying blockers for others to make a play, how will that dominance translate against NFL OL man? it wont be as easy.
I believe the reports that he gets worn down when used to much, mostly because most big guys like him do, and they stay in because even worn out they are better then the next man up.
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 22 Apr 2022 09:27
by NCF
Yoop wrote: ↑22 Apr 2022 08:27
I believe the reports that he gets worn down when used to much, mostly because most big guys like him do, and they stay in because even worn out they are better then the next man up.
I have seen more reports questioning whether he will get worn down and not reporting that he did get worn down. This guy has a very wide array of outcomes, but I can't think of the last interior DL with a ceiling as high.
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 22 Apr 2022 09:38
by Drj820
NCF wrote: ↑22 Apr 2022 09:27
but I can't think of the last interior DL with a ceiling as high.
which is why i dont think he will be around at 22.
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 22 Apr 2022 11:49
by paco
https://www.nfl.com/news/seven-round-20 ... s-trade-up
Chad, what are you doing? Olave at 22, fine. Abraham Lucas at 28? No, and I like Lucas. But he isn't a first rounder. Have seen comparisons to Andre Dillard. I think he can be a darn good pro, but has a limited ceiling. Late round 2 is highest I'd go, rather round 3.
Rest of the draft
53 - Ojabo (I'm ok with this, would prefer getting him later but understand this slot)
59 - Travis Jones, DL (I'm REALLY ok with this. I'd take him in the 1st).
92 - Darrian Beavers, LB (I'm starting to really be ok with this draft despite the Lucas pick)
132 - Zyon McCollum, CB (another pick I really like)
140 - Jamaree Salyer, OL (interesting, solid pick. Maybe prefer a little later but ok with it)
171 - Verone McKinley III, S (don't have him in my draftable list for us, but need to do more work)
228 - Carson Wells, LB
249 - Jalen Virgil, WR
258 - Kalia Davis, DT
I like a lot of it actually. Not my favorite though.
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 23 Apr 2022 03:09
by Scott4Pack
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑22 Apr 2022 07:37
Scott4Pack wrote: ↑22 Apr 2022 02:44
Yoop wrote: ↑14 Apr 2022 06:19
read a comment the other day from some draft guy I'd never heard of that said Davis played most of last year at 365 lbs, barely played a 1/3 of the D snaps.
wondered if any one here heard that? thats concerning to me?
I like Wyatt, but I'll wait and take someone in the 3rd or 4th round
That’s my concern about any “mountain” men. Do they stay healthy for a long career? Do they have the stamina (at least on defense) to play a lot of snaps?
I feel like the impression that Davis didn’t play many snaps because he couldn’t is misplaced.
A lot of schools need to keep their most talented players on the field as often as possible. Georgia has more than seven front-seven players on their team that will be drafted in the top 100-120 this year and next.
They took their nose tackle off the field to add a linebacker who can blitz and cover (Channing Tindall). He’ll be drafted in the 3rd or 4th round
without ever starting a game in college.
Why on earth wouldn’t Georgia sub out their nose tackle for a linebacker in a pro-style system with the talent to do it? Travon Walker (top 5) slid inside next to Wyatt (20 to 40) for passing downs. Tindall (3rd/4th) and Carter (2023 top 15) become the outside linebackers. Dean (1st/2nd) and Quay Walker (2nd/3rd) man the middle of the field. That’s a passing down lineup good enough for the NFL. And given how great the Georgia run defense was and how often they had the lead, passing downs are common.
It’s not necessarily about some big dude who can’t hang. It was about maximizing the effectiveness of situational defense. A UConn team that set records for futility over the years didn’t have the luxury of taking Travis Jones off the field.
Certainly, Davis’ stamina and conditioning are questions. His passing down effectiveness is projection. You like to draft guys who have proven they can do things not just projected to be able to do more. But you don’t always get to. You have to be able to see special talent and translate it to the next level and your own system.
I’ll accept what you have here. But I still don’t know how many/few giant men are going to have the stamina or mobility or durability that I would want. I’m sure that there are some. But they are so few in number.
I’m actually impressed with what we have in Kenny Clark. He isn’t 330+ but he is a large man in his own right. Yet, he gets the snaps and performs at an elite level over the course of the season. Truly impressive. To me, trying to find one of him to put alongside Clark would be awesome. I doubt it’ll happen. But if it does, imagine how our DLine and pass rush and run D would be altogether!
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 23 Apr 2022 08:38
by Yoop
Scott4Pack wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022 03:09
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑22 Apr 2022 07:37
Scott4Pack wrote: ↑22 Apr 2022 02:44
That’s my concern about any “mountain” men. Do they stay healthy for a long career? Do they have the stamina (at least on defense) to play a lot of snaps?
I feel like the impression that Davis didn’t play many snaps because he couldn’t is misplaced.
A lot of schools need to keep their most talented players on the field as often as possible. Georgia has more than seven front-seven players on their team that will be drafted in the top 100-120 this year and next.
They took their nose tackle off the field to add a linebacker who can blitz and cover (Channing Tindall). He’ll be drafted in the 3rd or 4th round
without ever starting a game in college.
Why on earth wouldn’t Georgia sub out their nose tackle for a linebacker in a pro-style system with the talent to do it? Travon Walker (top 5) slid inside next to Wyatt (20 to 40) for passing downs. Tindall (3rd/4th) and Carter (2023 top 15) become the outside linebackers. Dean (1st/2nd) and Quay Walker (2nd/3rd) man the middle of the field. That’s a passing down lineup good enough for the NFL. And given how great the Georgia run defense was and how often they had the lead, passing downs are common.
It’s not necessarily about some big dude who can’t hang. It was about maximizing the effectiveness of situational defense. A UConn team that set records for futility over the years didn’t have the luxury of taking Travis Jones off the field.
Certainly, Davis’ stamina and conditioning are questions. His passing down effectiveness is projection. You like to draft guys who have proven they can do things not just projected to be able to do more. But you don’t always get to. You have to be able to see special talent and translate it to the next level and your own system.
I’ll accept what you have here. But I still don’t know how many/few giant men are going to have the stamina or mobility or durability that I would want. I’m sure that there are some. But they are so few in number.
I’m actually impressed with what we have in Kenny Clark. He isn’t 330+ but he is a large man in his own right. Yet, he gets the snaps and performs at an elite level over the course of the season. Truly impressive. To me, trying to find one of him to put alongside Clark would be awesome. I doubt it’ll happen. But if it does, imagine how our DLine and pass rush and run D would be altogether!
thing is how much attention ( or resources) should we devote to improving our run stopping ability, granted we need to improve from being worst in the league, considering that we have been 13-3 for 3 years straight, most of our opponents are forced to play catch up ball.
So with that in mind should we spend our first pick on a monster DT whos best attribute is moving OL so someone else can make a play?
I look at it like this, if we intend to stunt second level defenders rushing the passer then a big guy like Davis could clear a lane to do so, problem is when doing so we leave a zone open for a completed pass, so doing that to much sets us up failure, to many offenses now use hurry up just as we do and will take advantage of that.
so imo we would be better suited adding a more versatile DT, one that is decent against both plugging a gap against the run, but also with some technical ability to rush the QB, and imo one of those can be had in the 2nd or 3rd rounds. just my opinion...
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 23 Apr 2022 12:19
by YoHoChecko
I will say, most of this discussion is moot; Davis is highly, highly unlikely to wind up a Packer.
That said, [mention]Yoop[/mention], you are missing the point we are making. When you say:
Yoop wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022 08:38
So with that in mind should we spend our first pick on a monster DT whos best attribute is moving OL so someone else can make a play?
...
so imo we would be better suited adding a more versatile DT, one that is decent against both plugging a gap against the run, but also with some technical ability to rush the QB
We are saying: there is literally no more versatile DT in existence than a 341 pound man with the agility and athleticism of Aaron Donald. You are describing his ROLE at UGA and we are describing his CAPABILITIES at the next level.
Davis is CAPABLE of playing any role you ask of him. He is a hard enough worker and consistent improver enough to think he can grow into the techniques.
I am about 85% certain you bemoaned the Kenny Clark pick as just a run stuffer in the first round for his first year or two, as well. You have to look at how he COULD be used, not only how he HAS been used.
I see a DL with a versatile, scheme-proof guy like Kenny Clark and I can't get over how much improved it could be by adding a SECOND versatile, scheme-proof guy to the mix so that our rotation and our 3rd DL on the field can be placed wherever their talents are most maximized. Think of it like having 2 Elgton Jenkins on the OL. You line up those two guys anywhere, and they dominate; meaning that everyone else can be slotted into the positions and roles where their strengths are most highlighted.
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 23 Apr 2022 12:44
by NCF
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022 12:19
I will say, most of this discussion is moot; Davis is highly, highly unlikely to wind up a Packer.
That said, @Yoop, you are missing the point we are making. When you say:
Yoop wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022 08:38
So with that in mind should we spend our first pick on a monster DT whos best attribute is moving OL so someone else can make a play?
...
so imo we would be better suited adding a more versatile DT, one that is decent against both plugging a gap against the run, but also with some technical ability to rush the QB
We are saying: there is literally no more versatile DT in existence than a 341 pound man with the agility and athleticism of Aaron Donald. You are describing his ROLE at UGA and we are describing his CAPABILITIES at the next level.
Davis is CAPABLE of playing any role you ask of him. He is a hard enough worker and consistent improver enough to think he can grow into the techniques.
I am about 85% certain you bemoaned the Kenny Clark pick as just a run stuffer in the first round for his first year or two, as well. You have to look at how he COULD be used, not only how he HAS been used.
I see a DL with a versatile, scheme-proof guy like Kenny Clark and I can't get over how much improved it could be by adding a SECOND versatile, scheme-proof guy to the mix so that our rotation and our 3rd DL on the field can be placed wherever their talents are most maximized. Think of it like having 2 Elgton Jenkins on the OL. You line up those two guys anywhere, and they dominate; meaning that everyone else can be slotted into the positions and roles where their strengths are most highlighted.
Meanwhile, I haven't seen a single mention of the fact that a monster like Davis, even if he ends up primarily as a 2-down run defender, still creates a ton of flexibility for Kenny Clark to play a more penetrating style and save his body from some of the pounding he takes. I know we love to consider that Kenny Clark is still only 26 years old, but the man plays a ton of snaps and has played a lot of football already. I would love to help him out and prolong his career.
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 23 Apr 2022 14:21
by Yoop
NCF wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022 12:44
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022 12:19
I will say, most of this discussion is moot; Davis is highly, highly unlikely to wind up a Packer.
That said, @Yoop, you are missing the point we are making. When you say:
Yoop wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022 08:38
So with that in mind should we spend our first pick on a monster DT whos best attribute is moving OL so someone else can make a play?
...
so imo we would be better suited adding a more versatile DT, one that is decent against both plugging a gap against the run, but also with some technical ability to rush the QB
We are saying: there is literally no more versatile DT in existence than a 341 pound man with the agility and athleticism of Aaron Donald. You are describing his ROLE at UGA and we are describing his CAPABILITIES at the next level.
Davis is CAPABLE of playing any role you ask of him. He is a hard enough worker and consistent improver enough to think he can grow into the techniques.
I am about 85% certain you bemoaned the Kenny Clark pick as just a run stuffer in the first round for his first year or two, as well. You have to look at how he COULD be used, not only how he HAS been used.
I see a DL with a versatile, scheme-proof guy like Kenny Clark and I can't get over how much improved it could be by adding a SECOND versatile, scheme-proof guy to the mix so that our rotation and our 3rd DL on the field can be placed wherever their talents are most maximized. Think of it like having 2 Elgton Jenkins on the OL. You line up those two guys anywhere, and they dominate; meaning that everyone else can be slotted into the positions and roles where their strengths are most highlighted.
Meanwhile, I haven't seen a single mention of the fact that a monster like Davis, even if he ends up primarily as a 2-down run defender, still creates a ton of flexibility for Kenny Clark to play a more penetrating style and save his body from some of the pounding he takes. I know we love to consider that Kenny Clark is still only 26 years old, but the man plays a ton of snaps and has played a lot of football already. I would love to help him out and prolong his career.
see this is where I differ, Kenny Clark is not a one gap penetrating DT, his pass rush success comes through bull rushing Guards and Tackles back into the QB, that is his signature move, so why draft another of him, obviously Davis has more power, and more athletic, but thats his M O as well.
Yoho, I read the hype, but there is no prove to back up all the claims, for ONE just because he's bigger and as athletic as Aaron Donald doesn't mean he will ever provide the production of Donald, in fact it's probable that he never even comes close.
sorry I would not make this pick, I've been burned forever falling for these huge DT's.
NCF: yes we pre set Kenny often shading a gap, but he doesn't beat G's and T's with a assortment of technical skill techniques, he beats them with shear power, often simply driving them back to the QB, when in 0 tech he drives double teams the same way, my point is should we look for another with those skills, or a actual 3 tech with pass rushing skills?
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 25 Apr 2022 15:36
by paco
This mock has us trading our two 1sts to Atlanta to grab Garrett Wilson. Also Sam Howell as the 1st QB off the board (which I thought about making a bold prediction).
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/new ... nson-no-1/
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 25 Apr 2022 16:24
by bud fox
YoHoChecko wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022 12:19
I will say, most of this discussion is moot; Davis is highly, highly unlikely to wind up a Packer.
That said, @Yoop, you are missing the point we are making. When you say:
Yoop wrote: ↑23 Apr 2022 08:38
So with that in mind should we spend our first pick on a monster DT whos best attribute is moving OL so someone else can make a play?
...
so imo we would be better suited adding a more versatile DT, one that is decent against both plugging a gap against the run, but also with some technical ability to rush the QB
We are saying: there is literally no more versatile DT in existence than a 341 pound man with the agility and athleticism of Aaron Donald. You are describing his ROLE at UGA and we are describing his CAPABILITIES at the next level.
Davis is CAPABLE of playing any role you ask of him. He is a hard enough worker and consistent improver enough to think he can grow into the techniques.
I am about 85% certain you bemoaned the Kenny Clark pick as just a run stuffer in the first round for his first year or two, as well. You have to look at how he COULD be used, not only how he HAS been used.
I see a DL with a versatile, scheme-proof guy like Kenny Clark and I can't get over how much improved it could be by adding a SECOND versatile, scheme-proof guy to the mix so that our rotation and our 3rd DL on the field can be placed wherever their talents are most maximized. Think of it like having 2 Elgton Jenkins on the OL. You line up those two guys anywhere, and they dominate; meaning that everyone else can be slotted into the positions and roles where their strengths are most highlighted.
Agree with yoop. I don't see Aaron Donald movement. The tape I saw is strength over lineman and then straight running. No cutting or change of direction you need as a nfl pass rusher.
Looks to be real good against the run though.
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 25 Apr 2022 17:08
by Drj820
bud fox wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022 16:24
Looks to be real good against the run though.
which would be something that would be nice to have
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 25 Apr 2022 17:20
by NCF
bud fox wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022 16:24
Agree with yoop. I don't see Aaron Donald movement. The tape I saw is strength over lineman and then straight running. No cutting or change of direction you need as a nfl pass rusher.
Looks to be real good against the run though.
That is the scouting drill. Watching tape. Seeing what you see. But, there is also room for projection. Like, how a man that big posted agility and movement times the way he did. There is the bet on traits school of scouting and then there is the look at the tape school of scouting. I think the Packers are about as good as any as marrying those two together, but I do think they lean more towards the numbers at the top of the draft and lean more towards production the further down the board they go.
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 25 Apr 2022 20:14
by bud fox
Drj820 wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022 17:08
bud fox wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022 16:24
Looks to be real good against the run though.
which would be something that would be nice to have
Yeah he definitely looks like a monster against the run.
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 25 Apr 2022 20:20
by bud fox
NCF wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022 17:20
bud fox wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022 16:24
Agree with yoop. I don't see Aaron Donald movement. The tape I saw is strength over lineman and then straight running. No cutting or change of direction you need as a nfl pass rusher.
Looks to be real good against the run though.
That is the scouting drill. Watching tape. Seeing what you see. But, there is also room for projection. Like, how a man that big posted agility and movement times the way he did. There is the bet on traits school of scouting and then there is the look at the tape school of scouting. I think the Packers are about as good as any as marrying those two together, but I do think they lean more towards the numbers at the top of the draft and lean more towards production the further down the board they go.
We have game tape to see what he looks like.
I have said in other threads I don't trust the 40 clock this year, so will only use the times against other players from this year. However who cares about a 40 for a DL when all the work is in 5-10 yards and not straight yards but all over the place. A 3 cone would've been interesting.
Also I expect they base most of their scouting on game tape as it is so good now. I think the most important stats from the combine are height and weight - the rest shows up on game tape.
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 26 Apr 2022 06:32
by NCF
bud fox wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022 20:20
A 3 cone would've been interesting.
Yes, for sure, but the explosion jumps are off the charts, too. A 32" vertical is awesome for a guy that size and the 10'03" broad jump is simply ridiculous. Those measurements have nothing to do with a watch and are as standard as humanly possible.
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 26 Apr 2022 07:46
by Yoop
NCF wrote: ↑26 Apr 2022 06:32
bud fox wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022 20:20
A 3 cone would've been interesting.
Yes, for sure, but the explosion jumps are off the charts, too. A 32" vertical is awesome for a guy that size and the 10'03" broad jump is simply ridiculous. Those measurements have nothing to do with a watch and are as standard as humanly possible.
No one is denying that Davis is a huge athletic freak, the argument is should we jump up to get him or even take him if he slides to us, as a football player he has minimal technical skills and wins by over powering people, which wont be as easy at the pro level, and as with most really big guys will need to rotate in and out often to remain fresh enough to play in the 4th quarter.
can we afford to spend our top pick on this type of player? I would not, specially so considering our needs at WR, OL, edge rusher etc.
Re: Packers Mocks Around the Media
Posted: 26 Apr 2022 08:07
by NCF
Yoop wrote: ↑26 Apr 2022 07:46
NCF wrote: ↑26 Apr 2022 06:32
bud fox wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022 20:20
A 3 cone would've been interesting.
Yes, for sure, but the explosion jumps are off the charts, too. A 32" vertical is awesome for a guy that size and the 10'03" broad jump is simply ridiculous. Those measurements have nothing to do with a watch and are as standard as humanly possible.
No one is denying that Davis is a huge athletic freak, the argument is should we jump up to get him or even take him if he slides to us, as a football player he has minimal technical skills and wins by over powering people, which wont be as easy at the pro level, and as with most really big guys will need to rotate in and out often to remain fresh enough to play in the 4th quarter.
can we afford to spend our top pick on this type of player? I would not, specially so considering our needs at WR, OL, edge rusher etc.
Goes back to projection. If you believe what is today is all he will ever be, then the answers to all of your questions are pretty simply no. I tend to believe he can learn to use his athletic gifts to learn to win in new ways. Ways very few, if any, have won before at that size.