Packers Huddle

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 12:06

NCF wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 12:02

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

12 Dec 2020 21:48

It isn't simply for the fact that we don't determine head to head wins or loses by optimal points.

It would sure seem to eliminate any idea of tanking, though.

I think it is an excellent idea to use it for determining tanking, no doubt. As a draft order determinate, it hold some issues. For example, I have 4 legitimate starting QBs. My worst 2 weeks for optimal % is when I didn't start Wentz and Cam Newton laid an egg, but Wentz went off. That has NOTHING to do with tanking.

That's true, too.

Does Fleaflicker do All Play record?

Packfntk wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 12:13

Does Fleaflicker do All Play record?

https://www.fleaflicker.com/nfl/leagues ... ction=DESC

I think just Optimum scoring.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 12:06

NCF wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 12:02

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

12 Dec 2020 21:48

It isn't simply for the fact that we don't determine head to head wins or loses by optimal points.

It would sure seem to eliminate any idea of tanking, though.

I think it is an excellent idea to use it for determining tanking, no doubt. As a draft order determinate, it holds some issues. For example, I have 4 legitimate starting QBs. My worst 2 weeks for optimal % is when I didn't start Wentz and Cam Newton laid an egg, but Wentz went off. That has NOTHING to do with tanking.

But it better determines which teams might actually be better or worse, which works perfectly for your example.

BF004 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 13:09

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 12:06

NCF wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 12:02

It would sure seem to eliminate any idea of tanking, though.

I think it is an excellent idea to use it for determining tanking, no doubt. As a draft order determinate, it holds some issues. For example, I have 4 legitimate starting QBs. My worst 2 weeks for optimal % is when I didn't start Wentz and Cam Newton laid an egg, but Wentz went off. That has NOTHING to do with tanking.

But it better determines which teams might actually be better or worse, which works perfectly for your example.

Then why don't we just use Optimal Points to determine the league winner?

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 13:13

BF004 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 13:09

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 12:06

I think it is an excellent idea to use it for determining tanking, no doubt. As a draft order determinate, it holds some issues. For example, I have 4 legitimate starting QBs. My worst 2 weeks for optimal % is when I didn't start Wentz and Cam Newton laid an egg, but Wentz went off. That has NOTHING to do with tanking.

But it better determines which teams might actually be better or worse, which works perfectly for your example.

Then why don't we just use Optimal Points to determine the league winner?

Because we don't have a problem with contending teams not playing their best players.

BF004 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 13:25

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 13:13

BF004 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 13:09

But it better determines which teams might actually be better or worse, which works perfectly for your example.

Then why don't we just use Optimal Points to determine the league winner?

Because we don't have a problem with contending teams not playing their best players.

We don't have a problem with the non contending teams playing their best players either.

So my thoughts on some things:

What's fun about fantasy football is that it is an ongoing process; you don't just draft and wait and see. You draft and do the waivers and whatnot and you make weekly start/sit decisions.

Thus, each season of fantasy football is a combination of your roster, your decisions, and your luck. the randomness is part of the fun. It makes it realistic in a sense--any given Sunday and whatnot. Going head-to-head each week and trying to win week-to-week is how you determine the best teams in a given season. And head-to-head playoffs is how you determine the Champion of the season.


But drafting in a dynasty league is to achieve parity. The reverse draft order is a thing because the teams who need the most help or have the worst roster need better access to high picks in order to improve their rosters.

If the goal of a league is to create and allow parity, then using "optimum points," which takes a lot of the randomness and choice out of it, is ideal. It truly aims at providing parity through a system that rewards you in-season for the same, time-tested and approved means of head-to-head matchups, and rewards you in the offseason based on the greatest need.

And look, this is easy for me to say, because I'm picking 4th through 6th or so, anyway. But I definitely DEFINITELY think this idea of using optimal points for draft order is the best way to run a dynasty league. I had not even realized FF kept track of optimal points, but as soon as I saw the idea, I loved it.

Optimal points isn't just a defense against tanking--because there can be some big instances of bad luck or just poor management that lead to reduced optimal points. It's nice to give us a glimpse as to which managers are under-performing and as commissioners, we can go back and say "ok, these under-performing teams, what happened there?" and use human judgment.

But REGADLESS of tanking, it strikes me as a far better measure of which teams need the most/best help and therefore which draft order would most benefit parity and competitiveness in the league longer-term.

I think a lot of people who may have more to gain or lose may be viewing this solely through a single-season or anti-tanking lens. But for me, it sounds like a methodology that just better exemplifies the goal of reverse-order drafting: roster parity.

Yet that's thrown out the window since playoffs are determined by record and playoff teams would be the last 4 in each round. Conceivably a team could have a low optimal points and still make the playoffs. The best teams don't always win.

The more I think about it too, this isn't a guard against tanking at all. Optimal points will be what they will be regardless of lineup.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 14:53

The more I think about it too, this isn't a guard against tanking at all. Optimal points will be what they will be regardless of lineup.

I'm lost. Why isn't that a guard against tanking?

NCF wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 14:59

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 14:53

The more I think about it too, this isn't a guard against tanking at all. Optimal points will be what they will be regardless of lineup.

I'm lost. Why isn't that a guard against tanking?

I guess tanking isn't the right description. One doesn't have to set a lineup or give any thought to it once they are out, as their draft position will be what it is regardless of lineup. While not tanking, it does introduce a different element to it.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 15:08

NCF wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 14:59

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 14:53

The more I think about it too, this isn't a guard against tanking at all. Optimal points will be what they will be regardless of lineup.

I'm lost. Why isn't that a guard against tanking?

I guess tanking isn't the right description. One doesn't have to set a lineup or give any thought to it once they are out, as their draft position will be what it is regardless of lineup. While not tanking, it does introduce a different element to it.

Yeah, but I feel like it's more positive then negative. You can do whatever you want with your line-up to try and win games without apology. No incentive to win and no incentive to lose. Honestly, I almost felt more pressure this year to play certain line-ups then if my team would have been competing at the top.

I could see that. It doesn't necessarily discourage tanking or inattentiveness though, in terms of giving other teams wins. I don't necessarily like how records and playoffs are not based on optimal points, yet draft order 1-6 is. It makes it messy. I could go for draft order mirrors optimal points,1-10, and disregard the playoffs.

But teams still have to set valid lineups, because they affect playoffs.

NCF wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 15:15

Yeah, but I feel like it's more positive then negative. You can do whatever you want with your line-up to try and win games without apology. No incentive to win and no incentive to lose. Honestly, I almost felt more pressure this year to play certain line-ups then if my team would have been competing at the top.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 15:18

I could see that. It doesn't necessarily discourage tanking or inattentiveness though, in terms of giving other teams wins. I don't necessarily like how records and playoffs are not based on optimal points, yet draft order 1-6 is. It makes it messy. I could go for draft order mirrors optimal points,1-10, and disregard the playoffs.

I don't care what optimal points say at the top, if you win the league, you pick 10th. I don't understand what you feel is messy about it, but it makes perfect sense to divide playoff teams from non-playoff teams in my mind.

Also, as there is some general support mounting, I will say that I support this, but not to go into affect this year. I feel like it's a big enough change that we should consider implementing a year out. It would cost me one spot in the draft order this year, full disclosure, but that is not even why I say that.

NCF wrote: ↑

15 Dec 2020 08:23

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

14 Dec 2020 15:18

I could see that. It doesn't necessarily discourage tanking or inattentiveness though, in terms of giving other teams wins. I don't necessarily like how records and playoffs are not based on optimal points, yet draft order 1-6 is. It makes it messy. I could go for draft order mirrors optimal points,1-10, and disregard the playoffs.

I don't care what optimal points say at the top, if you win the league, you pick 10th. I don't understand what you feel is messy about it, but it makes perfect sense to divide playoff teams from non-playoff teams in my mind.

It absolutely makes perfect sense to divide playoff teams and non-playoff teams. However, if parity is the underlying goal here, then using optimal points for 1-6 and playoffs for 7-10 doesn't. Either optimal points helps create parity and we care about that or it doesn't. That a team makes the playoffs does not mean that would have a top half optimal points and thus parity then isn't the underlying goal. Getting rid of divisions may help with this.

Pckfn23 wrote: ↑

15 Dec 2020 08:31

Getting rid of divisions may help with this.

Yes, for sure. No argument there.

NCF wrote: ↑

15 Dec 2020 08:26

Also, as there is some general support mounting, I will say that I support this, but not to go into affect this year. I feel like it's a big enough change that we should consider implementing a year out. It would cost me one spot in the draft order this year, full disclosure, but that is not even why I say that.

Yeah, if this is implemented, it absolutely cannot roll out until the 2022 draft.